Brewometer kickstarter thoughts - digital bluetooth hydrometer
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spittybug
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The website says it has a range of 32* to 135* F. Given that you or I can correct the reading of a 'normal' hydrometer based on the temperature of the wort, I assume the Tilt can as well since it is also taking that reading.
The fermentation has been event free since this strange issue. Once I retrieve the Tilt I will check it against the hydrometer in RO water and sugar water at various temperatures and see if I can replicate the issue.
Separately, the cloud logging of the data has been flawless with the Samsung S5 that I've been using. When I used a Dell tablet I would get a large, 1 period spike in both temp and SG every night at midnight. Weird. Weirder yet, each night's spike would erase the previous night's spike from the spreadsheet!
So, while I'm still working out some gremlins, I have to say that this little bugger is very useful and addictive to look at. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1T6A-Fziirz3LK_d60xqmIB8N3XMM-qHdm_931tmg7rM/edit#gid=734290882
My little bugger seems to have bugged out. Two weeks into a fruit ale and its has stopped reporting. I hope its the battery but something tells me its the seal 
That's what mine did. It's still in the beer so I'm not sure, but I had battery problems before. They're sending me a new one to replace it. I still think it's a great product with great customer support. I'm even considering buying another.
The website says it has a range of 32* to 135* F. Given that you or I can correct the reading of a 'normal' hydrometer based on the temperature of the wort, I assume the Tilt can as well since it is also taking that reading.
The fermentation has been event free since this strange issue. Once I retrieve the Tilt I will check it against the hydrometer in RO water and sugar water at various temperatures and see if I can replicate the issue.
Separately, the cloud logging of the data has been flawless with the Samsung S5 that I've been using. When I used a Dell tablet I would get a large, 1 period spike in both temp and SG every night at midnight. Weird. Weirder yet, each night's spike would erase the previous night's spike from the spreadsheet!
So, while I'm still working out some gremlins, I have to say that this little bugger is very useful and addictive to look at. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1T6A-Fziirz3LK_d60xqmIB8N3XMM-qHdm_931tmg7rM/edit#gid=734290882
That's really strange. The one limitation I will say exists with the tilt is the fact that it's relying on the internal temperature sensor of the accelerometer (BMA250) which provides a resolution of 0.5 deg K / LSB (or about 1 degree fahrenheit).
I would love to see them add a DS18b20 to the Tilt and improve the temperature resolution, but I can understand why they wouldn't do that given the increased complexity.
As you know they didn't create the board - it is an off the shelf Bean. But given they have probably sold a bunch of these, it might start to make sense to make their own and customize how they see fit.
Well, they could keep the bean, and solder on a DS18b20 if they wanted - the pins are pretty much already exposed. The real question is if the demand exists (and wrapped in that question is the question of how the more sensitive temperature data would be put to use).
Something I'd like to do is add native support to the BrewPi firmware, allowing the temperature data from the Tilt to be piped in as the "beer sensor". The basics of how to do it are already in place -- it's just getting the rest of the stack to support it that will be the challenge.
spittybug
Well-Known Member
It's all open source code, right? For those of you that know what to do, go for it!!!!!!!!!! Or does what you say need hardware changes?
In line with the discussion of temp affecting SG readings, I submit the following. Brewometer (early model, but using newer Tilt app on Android) added near end of fermentation (while I worked out leaks after changing battery), and includes the temp ramp for diacetyl rest followed by cold crash. SG tracks temp almost perfectly.
Comments?
Brew on
Comments?
Brew on
I'm a long time user of the Tilt/Brewometer, and I've just completed my 31st batch tracking temp and gravity with them. I have one of the original style units and one of the newer style ones. I've provided lots of feedback to the developers since I got my first one.
I've never had any problems with them leaking, even after changing the batteries; however, I have had to return two of the older style units due to problems with them. The first was just never accurate for gravity readings. The second one suddenly started being inaccurate, and then it just went bonkers and would ping pong reading all over the place. One 15 min log would vary as much as 20 points and degrees from the previous. The developers have always been very receptive to feedback and happily exchanged the defective units, no questions asked.
All that being said, here are my findings/nags with the units overall.
1 - As you guys say, temp definitely affects gravity readings. There is no doubt about it. I've got lots of graphs just like the ones you've already posted, so I won't post more, but yeah, it's really obvious. You don't notice it during active fermentation, but when things have settled down, and it's just the natural heat/cool cycle of your ferm chamber or you do a cold crash down to 32 or so, and the two lines just go hand in hand.
2 - They constantly need calibrated and re-calibrated. Temp is generally okay, but gravity always needs it. I reset mine in water on every brew day and then as soon as I drop them in the fermenters they are anywhere from 5-10 points off (usually low but occasionally high). That is comparing them to a couple of different hydrometers and a digital refractometer. Once I correct them to what the wort is though, they usually do okay during the actual fermentation, unless...
3 - Krausen and hop gunk stick to it really easily, and well then it just stinks for the entire fermentation. You can still use it to see trends during the ferment, which is nice because you can tell when fermentation is done without taking a reading, but definitely not good for taking an actual measurement.
4 - The way the temperature sensor works, you are measuring the temp of the air inside the cylinder, not the temp of the wort directly. That might be fairly obvious, but that causes two problems:
4A - Since part of the unit sits exposed above the surface of your wort, and that is in the open air part of your fermenter, it seems to be much more sensitive to temp changes than the actual thermal mass of the wort. I've got thermowells with temp probes in all of my fermenters as well, and whenever the heat or cool is on in the chamber, you'll see the Tilt swing pretty rapidly.
4B - It seems to take a long time to respond to temp changes of the wort. They recommend that you let it sit for 10 minutes or so to acclimate when you calibrate it, and I've noticed it taking it almost that long to catch up to wort temp changes.
Due to both of those, I don't think it's possible as-is to use this to try to directly control your fermentation chamber.
All that being said, I'm still a pretty happy owner. I just understand the limitations and try to use them in a capacity that works within those limitations. They're great to see trends in your ferments, be able to know when to move on to next stages without having to take measurements, and to be able to keep an eye on things from afar with a general reassurance that things are okay. One thing I like to use it for is to check on temp to know when to pitch my yeast or when to add gelatin during cold crashing without having to run out to my garage several times to look at the temp.
I've never had any problems with them leaking, even after changing the batteries; however, I have had to return two of the older style units due to problems with them. The first was just never accurate for gravity readings. The second one suddenly started being inaccurate, and then it just went bonkers and would ping pong reading all over the place. One 15 min log would vary as much as 20 points and degrees from the previous. The developers have always been very receptive to feedback and happily exchanged the defective units, no questions asked.
All that being said, here are my findings/nags with the units overall.
1 - As you guys say, temp definitely affects gravity readings. There is no doubt about it. I've got lots of graphs just like the ones you've already posted, so I won't post more, but yeah, it's really obvious. You don't notice it during active fermentation, but when things have settled down, and it's just the natural heat/cool cycle of your ferm chamber or you do a cold crash down to 32 or so, and the two lines just go hand in hand.
2 - They constantly need calibrated and re-calibrated. Temp is generally okay, but gravity always needs it. I reset mine in water on every brew day and then as soon as I drop them in the fermenters they are anywhere from 5-10 points off (usually low but occasionally high). That is comparing them to a couple of different hydrometers and a digital refractometer. Once I correct them to what the wort is though, they usually do okay during the actual fermentation, unless...
3 - Krausen and hop gunk stick to it really easily, and well then it just stinks for the entire fermentation. You can still use it to see trends during the ferment, which is nice because you can tell when fermentation is done without taking a reading, but definitely not good for taking an actual measurement.
4 - The way the temperature sensor works, you are measuring the temp of the air inside the cylinder, not the temp of the wort directly. That might be fairly obvious, but that causes two problems:
4A - Since part of the unit sits exposed above the surface of your wort, and that is in the open air part of your fermenter, it seems to be much more sensitive to temp changes than the actual thermal mass of the wort. I've got thermowells with temp probes in all of my fermenters as well, and whenever the heat or cool is on in the chamber, you'll see the Tilt swing pretty rapidly.
4B - It seems to take a long time to respond to temp changes of the wort. They recommend that you let it sit for 10 minutes or so to acclimate when you calibrate it, and I've noticed it taking it almost that long to catch up to wort temp changes.
Due to both of those, I don't think it's possible as-is to use this to try to directly control your fermentation chamber.
All that being said, I'm still a pretty happy owner. I just understand the limitations and try to use them in a capacity that works within those limitations. They're great to see trends in your ferments, be able to know when to move on to next stages without having to take measurements, and to be able to keep an eye on things from afar with a general reassurance that things are okay. One thing I like to use it for is to check on temp to know when to pitch my yeast or when to add gelatin during cold crashing without having to run out to my garage several times to look at the temp.
AF1HomeBrew
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I contacted the crew @ Tilt asking if they'd be interested in my BrewOmeter that took on some wort recently. They asked for a photo, which I supplied. They told me that they would ship me a replacement Tilt and I'll send the other one back. Gotta say customer support doesn't get better than that!
Apparently they changed to different gaskets in the newer Tilt models from the BrewOMeter (older model) to supply a better seal.
spittybug
Well-Known Member
I performed an experiment today. Using a jar of water and adding sugar to it, I compared my glass hydrometer, the TILT and my cheap Chinese refractometer at progressively higher sugar concentrations. I held the temp constant (OK, maybe +/- 1*) until the last couple of readings when I warmed it up to see the effect. I made sure the sugar was well dissolved and used the same sample for each of the devices. I let TILT equalize and 'tapped' it a couple of times to ensure it had no bubbles on it or that it wasn't touching the sides. Using the hydrometer, I was careful to read it correctly. The refractometer was a cleaner line in the eyepiece than I expected and I really only ever had ~ .1* ambiguity......
Bottom line, the TILT has some kind of divergence over the 1.030 to 1.085 range. We're talking about 15% off at its maximum. Ouch.
This explains the low SG reading I had (a few posts back) with the TILT, but doesn't explain the odd peak unless it temporary corrected itself......
Glitch? I wonder if the TILT guys have any calibration graphs like this? Anyone else ever done this comparison?
View attachment TILT comparison.pdf
Bottom line, the TILT has some kind of divergence over the 1.030 to 1.085 range. We're talking about 15% off at its maximum. Ouch.
This explains the low SG reading I had (a few posts back) with the TILT, but doesn't explain the odd peak unless it temporary corrected itself......
Glitch? I wonder if the TILT guys have any calibration graphs like this? Anyone else ever done this comparison?
View attachment TILT comparison.pdf
Hello,
My phone that I've been using to post data from TILT to Google Sheets just died (I guess because being old or because being hooked up to charger all the time). Before I start hunting for new old phone from my friends and family, I'd like to know if I'm able to post data to Google Sheets or Brewstat.us with Raspberry Pi 3? I know that I can use Rasp Pi with TILT, but where it can it post the data? Also have to mention that I'm totally noob what comes to Raspberry and coding, so if I choose to go the Rasp Pi way, I need someone to hold my hand and take me through the steps needed to set up Rasp Pi. Help really appreciated! Cheers from Finland!
Antti
My phone that I've been using to post data from TILT to Google Sheets just died (I guess because being old or because being hooked up to charger all the time). Before I start hunting for new old phone from my friends and family, I'd like to know if I'm able to post data to Google Sheets or Brewstat.us with Raspberry Pi 3? I know that I can use Rasp Pi with TILT, but where it can it post the data? Also have to mention that I'm totally noob what comes to Raspberry and coding, so if I choose to go the Rasp Pi way, I need someone to hold my hand and take me through the steps needed to set up Rasp Pi. Help really appreciated! Cheers from Finland!
Antti
I performed an experiment today. Using a jar of water and adding sugar to it, I compared my glass hydrometer, the TILT and my cheap Chinese refractometer at progressively higher sugar concentrations. I held the temp constant (OK, maybe +/- 1*) until the last couple of readings when I warmed it up to see the effect. I made sure the sugar was well dissolved and used the same sample for each of the devices. I let TILT equalize and 'tapped' it a couple of times to ensure it had no bubbles on it or that it wasn't touching the sides. Using the hydrometer, I was careful to read it correctly. The refractometer was a cleaner line in the eyepiece than I expected and I really only ever had ~ .1* ambiguity......
Bottom line, the TILT has some kind of divergence over the 1.030 to 1.085 range. We're talking about 15% off at its maximum. Ouch.
This explains the low SG reading I had (a few posts back) with the TILT, but doesn't explain the odd peak unless it temporary corrected itself......
Glitch? I wonder if the TILT guys have any calibration graphs like this? Anyone else ever done this comparison?
Thanks for taking the time to do this. Your findings seem to match up well to what I said previously about calibrating it in water, and then as soon as I drop it in the wort it's 5-10 points off. If you haven't already, and you don't mind, I'd like to send your findings on to the developers. That okay with you?
spittybug
Well-Known Member
That's OK fine with me. I wonder if the multipoint calibration will eliminate this problem though. I could simply 'correct' it to bring it in line with the hydrometer. I don't know the logic their calibration employs. Clarification from them would be great.
Does anyone have an issues where the readings spike up crazy high? and over time gravity increases? If i watch my tilt app, I see my 1.014 nearly finished fermenter spike to 1.285ish every few seconds (along with a drop in temperature of about 10 degrees), and increase to 1.017 over the course of an hour or so.
It's a new unit - seems to work okay in water for the most part (though still get the spikes every once in a while)
It's a new unit - seems to work okay in water for the most part (though still get the spikes every once in a while)
pepindavid
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Mine has a problem to: battery life seems to be going down every time I change the battery. Yesterday, I put a new battery in while the wort was cooling. My phone was receiving the signal correctly. About one hour later, when I pitched the Tilt in, there was no signal at all. For my previous brew, the battery lasted about 3 weeks. I think I will write to them....
Glad to hear I am not the only one.
So I reported the results of the tests done by @spittybug to the developers back on Tuesday, and yesterday they got back to me with the response.
I really don't like posting private emails verbatim in public forums; however, bullet point take-aways would be:
- We don't really have time to read home brew forums as we're busy working.
- Thanks for letting us know.
- It's not intended to be used for one-off readings but rather over the course of a fermentation.
- We're doing this for the home brew community and hope it helps people brew better beer.
So basically not acknowledging there could be a problem or even saying they would look into it. This email definitely had a different tone than the other back and forth I'd had with them, so overall a pretty disappointing response.
I did mention to them that looking back at my fermentation tracking it doesn't look like this has always been a problem and may have started about the time they released an update to their app. No response on that either, but maybe this is something that will be silently corrected with an app update.
Based on all of that I wouldn't go as far as saying I want to return mine or anything; however, I probably won't be recommending them so enthusiastically any longer, and I won't be in the market for another one while this problem still exists.
I really don't like posting private emails verbatim in public forums; however, bullet point take-aways would be:
- We don't really have time to read home brew forums as we're busy working.
- Thanks for letting us know.
- It's not intended to be used for one-off readings but rather over the course of a fermentation.
- We're doing this for the home brew community and hope it helps people brew better beer.
So basically not acknowledging there could be a problem or even saying they would look into it. This email definitely had a different tone than the other back and forth I'd had with them, so overall a pretty disappointing response.
I did mention to them that looking back at my fermentation tracking it doesn't look like this has always been a problem and may have started about the time they released an update to their app. No response on that either, but maybe this is something that will be silently corrected with an app update.
Based on all of that I wouldn't go as far as saying I want to return mine or anything; however, I probably won't be recommending them so enthusiastically any longer, and I won't be in the market for another one while this problem still exists.
AF1HomeBrew
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Thought I'd chime in and let everyone know that my replacement (original BrewOmeter) showed up earlier this week. I have no idea how the crew @ Tilt sent it so quickly, unless one of them was a retired SR-71 pilot (or knows one) that took a "Top Secret" joyride during the Thanksgiving holiday. Amazing customer service.
pepindavid
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Just a quick update: they are sending me another unit (already in the mail) and I'll send them back my unit. Good customer service!
Good to know, having the same issue.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Im kinda surprised no one has tried to figure out how to write an app for an old android phone to be used this way in a glass jar... I have no shortage of old android smart phones with the tilt sensors in them myself... This along with a $5 external battery pack could theoretically do the job with the right app running on them.... just saying..
Here we go... Dude I love your contributions, but you must NOT be serious here!?! The thing is $120, and it works like a champ right out of the box. Even if by some miracle you could get your glass/phone/battery/app rube to work, it wouldn't be worth even 30 minutes of your time to try! Stop the insanity and focus your mind on productive matters. Like inventing the *next* cool brewing toy...
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
well I dont make $240 an hour so yeah 30 minutes with some old stuff lying around would be worth my time here but honestly it would take me a lot longer...
I know its tough to put yourself in others shoes but $500 for one of these in each of my conicals is a lot of dough for me to shell out on my income... let alone justify when I see the original prototype was a $12 wii remote in a jar and you know they are likely a lot cheaper now that they are streamlined...
and from all the exchanges and mixed feelings reported here I dont see it working like a champ the same way you do...
Carlscan26
Well-Known Member
Where does the $500/each come from?
Yeah, I saw how the prototype was a wii remote in a tennis ball canister, but the LightBlue Bean that they're using now goes for $55. I'm sure they're getting a discount by buying in bulk, but they're a pretty small operation, so I doubt they're buying that many at once. Either way, more than $12 worth of materials in the units.
I do agree thought that saying they "work like a champ" would be a bit of a stretch.
I think they're using the $30 one (unless Punch Through upped the price in the past 2 weeks). That, a $5 battery holder (Amazon price), a $2 battery (same), custom tube/gasket/end caps I'll guess is $10, and a custom clip to tie it all together which I'll peg at $3 to make the math easier. So all in, probably $50 in parts before volume discounts.
Of course, that doesn't account for warranty support, defective products, etc. or the cost to acquire the original patent.
It's a healthy profit margin - but that's just it, it's healthy. Enough to support a small operation producing a custom product targeted at a tiny market. If someone could build a cheaper DIY solution that has decent battery life and consistency then that would be fantastic -- but I don't see that happening soon.
Oh yeah, sorry, I was looking at the wrong one. $30 is the correct price for the one they're using.
If they are buying $50 and selling for $120 that's not huge margin. I would bet they almost net neutral before drawing any compensation.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I never said each.. $500 for one for each of my conicals.. 4 total.
Not to mention the amortization costs of hardware and software R&D...
There is now a (hack) version of BrewPi that is integrated with the Tilt. Just need to add a BT dongle (or does your Pi3 already have BT?)
Sheesh... That's kinda harsh. That's a bit like saying brewing your own beer isn't worth your time.
I performed an experiment today. Using a jar of water and adding sugar to it, I compared my glass hydrometer, the TILT and my cheap Chinese refractometer at progressively higher sugar concentrations. I held the temp constant (OK, maybe +/- 1*) until the last couple of readings when I warmed it up to see the effect. I made sure the sugar was well dissolved and used the same sample for each of the devices. I let TILT equalize and 'tapped' it a couple of times to ensure it had no bubbles on it or that it wasn't touching the sides. Using the hydrometer, I was careful to read it correctly. The refractometer was a cleaner line in the eyepiece than I expected and I really only ever had ~ .1* ambiguity......
Bottom line, the TILT has some kind of divergence over the 1.030 to 1.085 range. We're talking about 15% off at its maximum. Ouch.
This explains the low SG reading I had (a few posts back) with the TILT, but doesn't explain the odd peak unless it temporary corrected itself......
Glitch? I wonder if the TILT guys have any calibration graphs like this? Anyone else ever done this comparison?
I've been out of the loop for a long time but I know when I last was looking into this there was temperature issues as well. As the temperature decreased the reported gravity would decrease as well. Has this issue been evaluated further?
I know I got my meter in a while ago but only recently had a chance to play with it, I dropped it in room temp water and the gravity reported was 1.000. I threw the bucket in the fridge and the gravity reported at 37F was 0.995 (I think), no bueno.
Id like to see a correction chart for both temp and actual gravity, id like to say id get to work on that myself but free time is pretty rare these days with a new toddler.
The Tilt simply broadcasts data via BLE advertisements. You need another device that receives and stores the data.
