I might have confused you when I said you have to consider the phase change because it wasn't clear to me if you were talking about making steam at 240F or making hot water at 240F. If you are doing things like me, you are making hot water at 240F. It converts to steam at 212 F when the valve is opened.
Steam Injected Mash System
- Thread starter brewman !
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Exactly! All this talk of heating steam isn't really necessary - that's not what we're doing! (for the most part)brewman ! said:
Got it! That was a lot of typing tonight for a rather simple concept in the end. Hope I didn't confuse anyone more than I did myself.brewman ! said:
Right, at 240F. But we *ARE* making steam at 212 when the valve is opened. But one doesn't really need to calculate that because the equilibrium situation after all the steam has blown of will be hot water at 212F.
I have some single handle corny kegs that should work nicely. I can TIG weld, wire, sweat pipe, etc, etc. I'll be sure to use a pressure relief valve in the system. All of the cutting and welding will be in the lid of the keg where I'll least affect the structural integrity of it.brewman ! said:
This statement "the hard part is adding another 970 BTU's/lb to make steam at 212 deg F" gives us a clue as to how much steam we are actually making. In K's example, we needed 1026 BTUs to heat the mash. At 970 BTU per pound, that's only a bit more than *ONE* pound of steam. So what happens is our 240F hot water flashes off to steam until it reaches equilibrium at 212F, in the process making a pound or so of steam. The rest of the 5 gallons, 40ish pounds, stays as hot water.
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I finally wrapped my brain around that as well. I was thinking of it completely backwards when I first read the post (as in, I have to add that much energy to the existing super-hot water after I vent some steam). Now I understand that if we were only making steam at 212 degrees, it would take a TON of energy to vent enough into the mash to make a difference. Fortunately, the "pressure cooker" effect is on our side.brewman ! said:
Awesome. It's bedtime. Thanks for the patience.
One other thing to consider is that the superheated water expands roughly 1400 times the volume of water involved when it flashes to steam. Contemplate the results of heating 4-5 gallons of water to 240 degrees and having a pressure vessel rupture while you were in the area.
Its standard boiler practice to test at 2x working pressure. Me saying 3x is just adding a safety factor. As long as a flame isn't used on the vessel, the temperature of the steel/materials stays low enough that metalurgical effects don't need to be considered.
If you are really worried about your vessel, buy a pressure cooker.
If you are really worried about your vessel, buy a pressure cooker.
Its standard boiler practice to test at 2x working pressure. Me saying 3x is just adding a safety factor. If it doesn't leak at 3x the working pressure, it isn't going to burst at the working pressure.
As long as a flame isn't used on the vessel, the temperature of the steel/materials stays low enough that metalurgical effects don't need to be considered.
If you are really worried about your vessel, buy a pressure cooker.
As long as a flame isn't used on the vessel, the temperature of the steel/materials stays low enough that metalurgical effects don't need to be considered.
If you are really worried about your vessel, buy a pressure cooker.
So I'm considering this... I have access to a 40 quart pressure cooker that could be repurposed exclusively for this project. From what I'm reading, that should be plenty big for 10 gallon batches.
I'm thinking about tee'ing off the steam with two solenoids connected to a pair of Rancos. One for the mash tun, the other for the HLT.
The biggest unknown to me is maintaining the pressure in the pressure cooker. I'd like to be able to automate that as well as use propane to heat it. Does Ranco or any other manufacturers have a model with setpoints above 220?
I guess the water in the pressure cooker should be really high quality? Since all the impurities will be boiled off into the steam?
I'm thinking about tee'ing off the steam with two solenoids connected to a pair of Rancos. One for the mash tun, the other for the HLT.
The biggest unknown to me is maintaining the pressure in the pressure cooker. I'd like to be able to automate that as well as use propane to heat it. Does Ranco or any other manufacturers have a model with setpoints above 220?
I guess the water in the pressure cooker should be really high quality? Since all the impurities will be boiled off into the steam?
For the boiler use a pressure switch to operate the heat source, steam boilers typically use pressure switches with a 3-5 psi deadband. Using temperature might get to be exciting on first warmup as the dissolved air in the water would make pressure rise faster than expected.
I like that suggestion...and I just noticed that my Ranco only goes to 220 degrees anyway.kladue said:
Its no big deal. It just blows the pressure relief then. When I start my pressure cooker, I run it without the weight on and get it blowing a bit. Then I put on the pressure weight.
I really think it would be worthwhile to borrow, beg or steal a pressure cooker and just play with it a bit before going wild and building stuff. All it takes is a pressure cooker, a nipple, a T and a piece of hose and you can be injecting steam into just about any mash vessel.
Craig5_12
Well-Known Member
I've always been intrigued by using steam, but without the ability to "steam jacket" my kettle/MT/HLT I figured I was dead in the water. Thanks for all the great ideas!
I'm nowhere near being able to calculate the thermodynamics and other math you've done but I do want to incorporate this into my brewery.
I've got a big spare pressure cooker that I can utilize for my 10gallon batches. I'll be using gas to heat the cooker.
I've recently converted to a semi-herms set-up. I say semi because I don't have the heat exchange part, just the recirculation.
There are two ways I think I can incorporate this in the mash, but which do you think would be best?
1) It would be simple to make a T and have steam enter the recirculation but will this damage the wort due to the hot temp? Should the steam be injected before or after the pump? Before could mean possible pump issues, After possibly incomplete absorbtion...
2) My falsebottom is pretty much just SS window screen, I'm guessing if you inject steam under the screen the fine mesh will break up the "bubbles" and make it easier for the mash to absorb the heat. This way you don't have to worry about the flow of the steam (too much). You should also be able to alleviate superheating the grain depending on how much space is underneath the false bottom.
I'm nowhere near being able to calculate the thermodynamics and other math you've done but I do want to incorporate this into my brewery.
I've got a big spare pressure cooker that I can utilize for my 10gallon batches. I'll be using gas to heat the cooker.
I've recently converted to a semi-herms set-up. I say semi because I don't have the heat exchange part, just the recirculation.
There are two ways I think I can incorporate this in the mash, but which do you think would be best?
1) It would be simple to make a T and have steam enter the recirculation but will this damage the wort due to the hot temp? Should the steam be injected before or after the pump? Before could mean possible pump issues, After possibly incomplete absorbtion...
2) My falsebottom is pretty much just SS window screen, I'm guessing if you inject steam under the screen the fine mesh will break up the "bubbles" and make it easier for the mash to absorb the heat. This way you don't have to worry about the flow of the steam (too much). You should also be able to alleviate superheating the grain depending on how much space is underneath the false bottom.
FlyGuy
Well-Known Member
I suggest that you try making up a manifold to put under your SS screen. Should work really well because the screen will hold the grain above the heat source. See my sig for some pics of how I made a very simple manifold.
And I really wouldn't worry about scorching the grains -- the heat dissipates really quickly. I could actually hold my hand within about 1/4" of the steam jets on my manifold before I could really feel intense heat from the steam.
And I really wouldn't worry about scorching the grains -- the heat dissipates really quickly. I could actually hold my hand within about 1/4" of the steam jets on my manifold before I could really feel intense heat from the steam.
Craig5_12
Well-Known Member
I'm thinking that will probably be the best method as well, but it might mean drilling another hole in my kettle (Sanke) and it would be nice to avoid that.
I'm also thinking now that I can use this to speed up my boil. Easiest method would probably be to make a "hot stick" (high temp hose with a manifold on the end) and just dunk it into the boil. See any issues with that?
EDIT: Instead of a manifold for the "hot stick" how about just a section of SS screen? Maybe in a ball so as to create very small bubbles!
I'm also thinking now that I can use this to speed up my boil. Easiest method would probably be to make a "hot stick" (high temp hose with a manifold on the end) and just dunk it into the boil. See any issues with that?
EDIT: Instead of a manifold for the "hot stick" how about just a section of SS screen? Maybe in a ball so as to create very small bubbles!
Energy transfer is by latent heat transfer from steam when it condenses not the temperature of the steam, this is why there would not be any color change in the wort as temperature and duration are lower than carmelizing temperatures. If you want to see a industrial steam/ liquid heater unit go to http://www.pickheaters.com/ and look at their equipment and principals of operation to better understand how they work. Having installed and operated pick and similar steam/liquid heaters, it was not to hard to recreate a scaled down version that works well for my purposes. It would be better for the pump if you put the mixing chamber after the pump, and invest in a flow meter that would let you monitor and control the flow through the pump in both wort recirculating and transfer to boil kettle.
Here are the meager beginnings of my corny keg boiler:
From left to right:
Solenoid valve for electronic control via my Mash Monitor software
Ball valve for manual control
Steam inlet via 1/2" tee fitting - coupler will be welded to keg
Gauge stack:
At the top - a pressure sensor for use with the software
Middle - easy to read pressure gauge
Bottom - a coil pipe to be filled with water in order to protect the gauge/sensor
Pressure relief valve (15 psi) for safety
Rube Goldberg would be so proud...
From left to right:
Solenoid valve for electronic control via my Mash Monitor software
Ball valve for manual control
Steam inlet via 1/2" tee fitting - coupler will be welded to keg
Gauge stack:
At the top - a pressure sensor for use with the software
Middle - easy to read pressure gauge
Bottom - a coil pipe to be filled with water in order to protect the gauge/sensor
Pressure relief valve (15 psi) for safety
Rube Goldberg would be so proud...
FlyGuy
Well-Known Member
Apparently so -- see this article:
http://www.gjwspykman.com/simm/simm.html
Here is another clever alternative:
http://www.bigfoamyhead.com/?page_id=77
http://www.gjwspykman.com/simm/simm.html
Here is another clever alternative:
http://www.bigfoamyhead.com/?page_id=77
I think I've found a great potential solution, what do you guys think? 
http://dallas.craigslist.org/art/359800007.html
heh maybe overkill?
http://dallas.craigslist.org/art/359800007.html
heh maybe overkill?
FlyGuy
Well-Known Member
Maybe its a good thing that Yuri doesn't live in Dallas....Hopleaf said:I think I've found a great potential solution, what do you guys think?
http://dallas.craigslist.org/art/359800007.html
heh maybe overkill?
Hi Folks,
I am very exited about the possibilities here. Have been building a HERMS, but all that non-stop pumping just seems plain wrong to me.
This seems like a good alternative.
I am in Australia. 240V.
I do 5-6 gallon batches.
Questions:
If I did the Corny Keg thing, what rating should the element be?
If I did the pressure cooker thing, what size would be sufficient for this size batch?
Cheers.
I am very exited about the possibilities here. Have been building a HERMS, but all that non-stop pumping just seems plain wrong to me.
This seems like a good alternative.
I am in Australia. 240V.
I do 5-6 gallon batches.
Questions:
If I did the Corny Keg thing, what rating should the element be?
If I did the pressure cooker thing, what size would be sufficient for this size batch?
Cheers.
another book mark
Superman3278
Well-Known Member
Working on incorperating SIMS into my design plans. Exciting to say the least.
