Trying to find the cause of a gusher infection

[aowron]

So... this is my first post on these forums; and it's a long one.

I have brewed about 12 batches since I got into homebrewing, and I have started noticing that I'm getting gushers; usually after a couple of months.

I can trace this back to the 5th batch I made, although I do believe that I saw "fermentation" rings in the bottles back in the third batch I made (which was a witbier). I first thought this was due to it using a funky belgian yeast (Mangrove jacks M21), and I did never have any gushers with that one (probably drank it before the gusher infection developed ).

So generally, this gusher infection is tasteless, but seems to consume all sugar it can get it hands on (the ones where I've used a Saison yeast generally don't have the problem to that extent due to the Saison yeast itself being able to partially digest dextrins).

So, what I am trying to do now is to find any processes where I might be doing something wrong, thus, where I could have (or continuously am) introducing wild yeasts (well, I believe it's a wild yeast, brett do indeed cause a "filmy ring", but the beer doesn't taste like "barn" or "horse-blanket"):

• I brew the beer in a braumeister, should generally not be a cause for infections due to, well, it boils the wort, everything is hot enought to kill micro organisms. Also, I sterilize it with VWP every 5th brew or so (and I do of course clean in with a sponge, washing-up liquid etc. after each brew).
• Spraying the cooling spiral with Star San
• Cleaning my plastic fermentation buckets with VWP and Star San
• Using a "Double blast" bottle cleaner and washing up liquid for cleaning the bottles before putting them in the oven
• Sterilizing my bottles in the oven (175 degrees C) for an hour (previously 150c for 1.5 hours; not enough according to how to brew)
• Boiling any hoses I use + the flip-caps for the bottles (and star-saning the flip-caps during the bottling process)

The possible causes for infection I can come up with would be:

• Not letting the cooling spiral rest in the hot wort for long enough before turning on the cold water (having the hot wort acting as a sanitizer)
• Not cleaning the bottles properly enough (I have seen a white film in a few of them, even after cleaning). I will probably have to start using the dreaded bottle-cleaning brush. Although; shouldn't the heat of the oven take care of this?
• The vessels, when unused being stacked in each other, have caused them to get a few scratches inside; might hide some nasty wild yeasts
• My star san mixture was too weak during my first 7 or 8 batches

Ohh, and I always use food grade plastic gloves during bottling and when pouring the wort to the secondary fermentation vessel.

So, can anyone see any other cause for infection? (or the validity in the causes of infection I could come up with)

 

[aowron]

Since I'm trying to decide where my sanitation is failing, I've added a picture of the latest brew I currently have fermenting, trying to decide if it looks infected or not (I've got a cold at the moment, so I cannot check for any off-flavors due to my sense of taste and smell being near nonexistant).

On one hand it looks pretty healthy (yeast: Mangrove Jack's M20 bavarian wheat); but on the other hand, the stuff around the "krausen isles" look a bit like some pictures I've seen of infected worts though.

 

[hottpeper13]

Because it is tasteless I would look at the mash. There needs to be at least 50 ppm of calcium in the mash to help precipitate calcium oxalate, which causes gushing in the bottle.
I get those floaters from time to time and have not had it cause any bad things.

 

[AntonioMartins]

I would try a a new fermentation bucket.

Some time these plastic buckets get micro scratches during the handling / cleaning. Once the bugs get in these scratches, can be very hard to kill them.

I use plastic buckets for fermentation also, but I replace the buckets by new ones from times to times.

Other thing...

Do you use a fermentation chamber? If yes, try to do a heavy sanitation on it too.

 

[bucketnative]

I have had this same issue. Look inside your bottling gear, too. I just passed a Q-tip through my spigot, which I disassemble and soak in hot water/StarSan after each batch, but there was a brown film that came off onto the Q-tip. I suspect this could be related to my issue.

As for the film on the bottles, I see this, especially after wheat/oat-heavy beers have been in them. I think it is a protein build-up, but it could allow microorganisms to hide safely from the sanitizer. I have used a bleach solution soak, which dissolves the film without brushing. I tried a brush, but all that did was leave a streaky, incomplete film. Perhaps PBW or Oxiclean would do the same thing as the bleach. Rinse bottles very well, and store inverted.

 

[aowron]

Thanks for the quick responses!

Because it is tasteless I would look at the mash. There needs to be at least 50 ppm of calcium in the mash to help precipitate calcium oxalate, which causes gushing in the bottle.
I get those floaters from time to time and have not had it cause any bad things.

Hmm, I did though take a reading from one of the gushers, and it had gone down from 1.017 (minus a couple of points from the bottle fermentation; I've noticed that the FG goes down when adding sugar in beersmith) to 1.007, so it seems like additional sugar had been eaten. Could this still cause it though? (that batch did by the way have about 90ppm of calcium due to some water modifications I did; my tap water (Gothenburg, Sweden) does though only have 22 ppm of Calcium).

I would try a a new fermentation bucket.

Some time these plastic buckets get micro scratches during the handling / cleaning. Once the bugs get in these scratches, can be very hard to kill them.

I use plastic buckets for fermentation also, but I replace the buckets by new ones from times to times.

Other thing...

Do you use a fermentation chamber? If yes, try to do a heavy sanitation on it too.

Yeah, since buckets are pretty cheap, I'll probably go with a new bottle filler, new spigots, new buckets and new airlocks (i.e. everything that can't be boiled; I assume the hoses are safe due to that I always boil them before use). Ohh, and my buckets don't just have micro scratches, but pretty big ones from when they've been stacked.

What is a fermentation chamber?

I have had this same issue. Look inside your bottling gear, too. I just passed a Q-tip through my spigot, which I disassemble and soak in hot water/StarSan after each batch, but there was a brown film that came off onto the Q-tip. I suspect this could be related to my issue.

As for the film on the bottles, I see this, especially after wheat/oat-heavy beers have been in them. I think it is a protein build-up, but it could allow microorganisms to hide safely from the sanitizer. I have used a bleach solution soak, which dissolves the film without brushing. I tried a brush, but all that did was leave a streaky, incomplete film. Perhaps PBW or Oxiclean would do the same thing as the bleach. Rinse bottles very well, and store inverted.

I usually just let my spigots and bottle filler (a plastic tube with a spring loaded pin in the bottom) rest in a VWP ("Vendor's Washing Powder"; basically PBW with (extra?) chlorine) mixture for a while. I should probably start cleaning the spigots with a q-tip; no idea how much residual gunk might be stuck in there...

Regarding the bottles though, I don't use sanitizer there, but heat instead (in the oven; putting some tin foil on top of the bottle before putting it in the oven). I do wonder though; maybe that film could make it easier for the microbes to survive the heat; dry heat should after all be less effective than "wet heat" (i.e. boiling).

 

[ChelisHubby]

Because it is tasteless I would look at the mash. There needs to be at least 50 ppm of calcium in the mash to help precipitate calcium oxalate, which causes gushing in the bottle.
I get those floaters from time to time and have not had it cause any bad things.

Can you elaborate on how the calcium's needed, I seem to have the same issues when I do bottle, tho I usually keg.

 

[ncbrewer]

You might be bottling before fermentation is finished. As I read it, your FG reading was 1.017.

Are you doing anything that gets grain dust in the area where your cooled wort will be? I got an infection in my first all-grain batch that I think was caused by this.

 

[BrewInspector]

My thoughts were the same as already mentioned. All those other tools that you use like the bottle filler, spigots, measuring cups, spoons, hydrometer, etc you can't sanitize dirty...

That the fermentation is not complete at time of bottling.

How did you measure the sg after bottling? Readings from a refractometer will be wrong without adjustment for the alcohol. A hydrometer may not be accurate either with the carbonation.

How are you calculating priming sugar needed? You may simply be adding too much. What are you priming with and how? Amount needed varies with product. Method may cause individual bottles to carbonate differently from others.

The photo looked perfectly normal.

 

[aowron]

You might be bottling before fermentation is finished. As I read it, your FG reading was 1.017.

Are you doing anything that gets grain dust in the area where your cooled wort will be? I got an infection in my first all-grain batch that I think was caused by this.

Grinding and pouring malt the same room as I am brewing in, unfortunately. Pretty small apartment, so I don't really have that much of choice when it comes to that. Did something pretty stupid during my first brew: poured ground malt into one of the fermentation vessels (temporarily, to put it into the mash tunnel of the Braumeister; the vessel was of course cleaned afterwards).

The estimated FG according to Beer Smith was about 1.014; the reading was when at least some carbon dioxide had settled (so it was probably even less than 1.007). I have been considering that the Beer Smith profile for Lallemand Abbaye could be inaccurate (70-74% attenuation), considering that the profile for Belle Saison was waaay off. But, since this continued happening to other brews which FG was bang on, or even about a point lower in FG, I'm suspecting that that isn't the cause.

I do though think this was what happened to my ****ty stout I made; poured more sugar (of course heated etc.) halfway through the fermentation process. Not a smart move.

My thoughts were the same as already mentioned. All those other tools that you use like the bottle filler, spigots, measuring cups, spoons, hydrometer, etc you can't sanitize dirty...

That the fermentation is not complete at time of bottling.

How did you measure the sg after bottling? Readings from a refractometer will be wrong without adjustment for the alcohol. A hydrometer may not be accurate either with the carbonation.

How are you calculating priming sugar needed? You may simply be adding too much. What are you priming with and how? Amount needed varies with product. Method may cause individual bottles to carbonate differently from others.

The photo looked perfectly normal.

I pretty much sanitize/clean anything that touches the brew; although the spigots are probably not cleaned well enough (same goes for the bottle filler, question is just how that could be cleaned). The priming sugar should be pretty ok though, always heat it up to 60-70 degrees (in water); which should kill of any eventual bugs. Maybe I should boil it even?

Regarding the hydrometer: I always tap 100ml into a measuring glass and measure it from there; never letting the hydrometer (nor the measuring glass) touch the wort. I always spray the spigot's inside with star san before and after tapping the 100mls for the measurement.

So, regarding carbonation: I let the wort pass through a hose from one vessel to another, creating a whirlpool, and then pour the hot sugar/water mixture into the whirlpool; which should mix it evenly (the overcarbonation is btw. really even; if one is a gusher, the rest have been like that too).

The calculations are based on Beer Smith's corn sugar profile (which is what I use for carbonation).

Considering that that film hasn't shown up in any fermentation vessel so far, and that I have been sterilizing my bottles at a too low temperature + that I haven't cleaned them properly (as you mentioned, "you can't sanitize dirty") I'm really leaning towards that I've been doing a bad job when it comes to cleaning the bottles.

 

[BrewInspector]

I tend to think the simplest answer is most likely the correct one.

To that end I suspect it is simple over priming. To have a persistent otherwise undetectable infection with reasonable sanitation is unlikely compared to bottling too soon and or using too much priming sugar. Compare your priming calculator estimates with others and verify you have that much beer to prime.

I could be wrong but you taste nothing, only saw a film once, no off flavors or smells. You might have an infection but....

 

[yourlastchance89]

I tend to think the simplest answer is most likely the correct one.

To that end I suspect it is simple over priming. To have a persistent otherwise undetectable infection with reasonable sanitation is unlikely compared to bottling too soon and or using too much priming sugar. Compare your priming calculator estimates with others and verify you have that much beer to prime.

I could be wrong but you taste nothing, only saw a film once, no off flavors or smells. You might have an infection but....

I am leaning more towards this analysis as well. You said your FG was 1.017. Was that recorded after a course of consecutive readings during fermentation, or was that what the recipe called for and you bottled it as soon as it hit that mark. The yeast in your brew may not be completely done fermenting the sugars. Hence the drop of gravity in the bottles and the over carbonation.

 

[aowron]

I tend to think the simplest answer is most likely the correct one.

To that end I suspect it is simple over priming. To have a persistent otherwise undetectable infection with reasonable sanitation is unlikely compared to bottling too soon and or using too much priming sugar. Compare your priming calculator estimates with others and verify you have that much beer to prime.

I could be wrong but you taste nothing, only saw a film once, no off flavors or smells. You might have an infection but....

I might have been a bit unclear on the film; it has appeared every time during this summer at least (which is pretty much that 1.017 belgo and onwards). I did first shake it off as "it's just because I'm only brewing weizen/saison beers, and the yeasts are weird, hence the film in the top of the bottle" (the apartment gets too hot for any other type of yeast during the summer).

First time the pelicle/film appeared was in my third batch, which was a witbier fermented with a witbier yeast.

I'll make sure to check that the priming measurements actually are ok, but I would suppose so considering that the gushing starts about 2 months later. For example, when bottling 9.5l of beer, which had a 3.0 volume of CO2, I added a total of ~82 grams of corn sugar (about 4.3 grams of sugar per bottle = 0.15 oz).

I am leaning more towards this analysis as well. You said your FG was 1.017. Was that recorded after a course of consecutive readings during fermentation, or was that what the recipe called for and you bottled it as soon as it hit that mark. The yeast in your brew may not be completely done fermenting the sugars. Hence the drop of gravity in the bottles and the over carbonation.

Interestingly enough, when I looked that beer up, I couldn't find any readings with multiple data points where the gravity was the same; although, I've had this exact problem for other brews where I've had multiple data points where the FG has stabilized (with M20, that's usually after 3 weeks, ~2 weeks with US-05).

 

[aowron]

Tried to snap a picture of the mentioned film; it was pretty hard to get the camera to focus properly.

 

[ncbrewer]

Since this has been a persistent problem, I suggest doing all the positive things you can right away. I know the scientific method is to change one thing at a time, but you can do that after you have gone complete overkill and solved the problem. I suggest:

Check gravity twice, 2 to 3 days apart, to be sure fermentation is finished.

Boil the priming sugar solution 10 minutes.

Take the bottling wand apart for cleaning and sanitizing. Most of these come apart by just popping the end off. Then the internal parts just fall out.

Try an extract batch to eliminate the grain dust possibility.

Figure priming sugar based on the amount (probably an estimate) in the bottling bucket - not in the fermenter.

Consider a lower carb level. 3.0 volumes is a lot, and any extra is pushing the limit for most bottles.

Soak the bottles in bleach before the next batch. 1 Tbsp bleach per gallon for 30 minutes. This is for new bleach - it decomposes with time. Rinse really well. I wouldn't bleach any plastic.

You might consider star san for sanitizing bottles on bottling day since you have some concern about temperature for sanitizing. Star san is very popular - I'd say you can't go wrong. Just make sure you're using the right dilution. And Charlie Papazian (the inventor) said it's ok to use a little more - I use about 25% more than they call for.

Your plan to replace all the plastic sounds good. That's what I had to do.

I really hope you can get this solved quickly.

 

[BrewInspector]

With that additional info, the photo, time lag to over carbonation, priming info etc, this sounds and now looks like an infection.

I like the above instructions. Do as much as possible to eliminate contamination. Disassemble and clean, replace what can't be confidently cleaned. Use a sanitizer (starsan) On anything that touches post boiled wort. Sanitize just prior to use, wet and foamy are fine.

 

[aowron]

Since this has been a persistent problem, I suggest doing all the positive things you can right away. I know the scientific method is to change one thing at a time, but you can do that after you have gone complete overkill and solved the problem. I suggest:

Check gravity twice, 2 to 3 days apart, to be sure fermentation is finished.

Boil the priming sugar solution 10 minutes.

Take the bottling wand apart for cleaning and sanitizing. Most of these come apart by just popping the end off. Then the internal parts just fall out.

Try an extract batch to eliminate the grain dust possibility.

Figure priming sugar based on the amount (probably an estimate) in the bottling bucket - not in the fermenter.

Consider a lower carb level. 3.0 volumes is a lot, and any extra is pushing the limit for most bottles.

Soak the bottles in bleach before the next batch. 1 Tbsp bleach per gallon for 30 minutes. This is for new bleach - it decomposes with time. Rinse really well. I wouldn't bleach any plastic.

You might consider star san for sanitizing bottles on bottling day since you have some concern about temperature for sanitizing. Star san is very popular - I'd say you can't go wrong. Just make sure you're using the right dilution. And Charlie Papazian (the inventor) said it's ok to use a little more - I use about 25% more than they call for.

Your plan to replace all the plastic sounds good. That's what I had to do.

I really hope you can get this solved quickly.

Although, wouldn't heating the bottles be safer considering that bleach might not get into all pores of the bottles? (while 175 degrees C will pretty much torch anything living inside of them; temperature according to: http://howtobrew.com/book/section-1/brewing-preperations/sanitation/sanitizing-your-equipment) Seems though like making sure that no gunk being left (in the bottles) over would help.

Regarding the carbonation; these bottles should be ok with 3.0 volumes; they weigh about 400 grams each (0.5L bottles) without the flip-top (i.e. not re-used bottles from a store-bought beer, but specifically bought for homebrewing). I've had a previous batch with so much pressure in them that I splashed down most of my kitchen (keeping it down in the sinking, aiming at the sink sidewall), without any of them exploding. This does of course mean that if I manage to reach a pressure where they go boom, they will become horrible, horrible bottle bombs (a homebrewer I know actually had bottle bombs with this type of bottle; he had brewed a berliner weisse, and it wasn't just the neck falling off; the pressure required for an explosion disintegrated those poor bottles).

Anyway, thanks for the tips on sanitation; I will definitely look into cleaning the wand, actually boiling the priming sugar etc.

Ohh, and regarding gravity readings: I'm doing a test now, with the latest batch (which I unfortunately will have to feed to the toilet), to see for how long it will continue fermenting. Seems like it's still going on, so I guess the infection actually is in the plastic equipment.

With that additional info, the photo, time lag to over carbonation, priming info etc, this sounds and now looks like an infection.

I like the above instructions. Do as much as possible to eliminate contamination. Disassemble and clean, replace what can't be confidently cleaned. Use a sanitizer (starsan) On anything that touches post boiled wort. Sanitize just prior to use, wet and foamy are fine.

Yeah, this is pretty much what I do with for star san; increasing the concentration a bit might help though; my usual mix is currently around ph 3.5 (and getting it down to around 2.0 would probably be beneficial).

 

[ncbrewer]

Although, wouldn't heating the bottles be safer considering that bleach might not get into all pores of the bottles? (while 175 degrees C will pretty much torch anything living inside of them; temperature according to: http://howtobrew.com/book/section-1/brewing-preperations/sanitation/sanitizing-your-equipment) Seems though like making sure that no gunk being left (in the bottles) over would help.

Regarding the carbonation; these bottles should be ok with 3.0 volumes; they weigh about 400 grams each (0.5L bottles) without the flip-top (i.e. not re-used bottles from a store-bought beer, but specifically bought for homebrewing). I've had a previous batch with so much pressure in them that I splashed down most of my kitchen (keeping it down in the sinking, aiming at the sink sidewall), without any of them exploding. This does of course mean that if I manage to reach a pressure where they go boom, they will become horrible, horrible bottle bombs (a homebrewer I know actually had bottle bombs with this type of bottle; he had brewed a berliner weisse, and it wasn't just the neck falling off; the pressure required for an explosion disintegrated those poor bottles).

Anyway, thanks for the tips on sanitation; I will definitely look into cleaning the wand, actually boiling the priming sugar etc.

Ohh, and regarding gravity readings: I'm doing a test now, with the latest batch (which I unfortunately will have to feed to the toilet), to see for how long it will continue fermenting. Seems like it's still going on, so I guess the infection actually is in the plastic equipment.



Yeah, this is pretty much what I do with for star san; increasing the concentration a bit might help though; my usual mix is currently around ph 3.5 (and getting it down to around 2.0 would probably be beneficial).

Heat is good, and if you're confident with the time and temperature should be good. I used bleach after an infection because it seems to be the norm. It worked well. Be careful about using heat. I've read that heating or cooling too fast can weaken the glass - don't remember the specifics.

About star san: Charlie Talley said in a podcast that star san can be mixed a little stronger than what the instructions call for without any ill effects, but he didn't specify how high you could go. I use 2 tsp in 5 liters - this is a factor of 1.26 compared to what the instructions call for.

 

[aowron]

So, fast forward several months, and I've bought new fermentation vessels (well, a vessel; bought an Ss Brew bucket with an ftss system), replaced the hoses, spigots, bottle filler etc. The only thing that still is in use since previously is the star san sprayer, the brewing machine (a Braumeister) and the bottles.

Just bottled my first brew since the infection; and this time, I've been way more anal about the time I let the pbw and star san sit in the fermenter before flushing and the bottle cleaning (properly cleaned them with a brush before heating them in the oven).

And well... got this today (see attachment). It tastes ok so far (primed for about two weeks now, no gusher symptoms; although the gusher symptoms from the last infection were rather sneaky: no noticeable taste and took 1-2 months to appear).

Bottled directly from primary (due to the brew bucket construction, it should be viable, still testing it out though) and used coopers carbonation drops. The yeast used is s-04.

What worries me is that that looks a bit like the last infection, but considering the heat sanitation (following "How to brew"'s guidelines), I just cannot see what could be causing the infection. If it is an infection, that is (or if it's just me being paranoid due to the last infection). Could loads of trub (because it seems like I got a lot of trub from bottling it from directly primary (primary in this case: 14 days)) cause that layer? Ohh, and I washed to bottles with normal dish-soap (so possibly, there could still be tiny soap leftovers in there).

Also, here were no hints of any white layer on top of the beer in the fermenter when I bottled it.

Edit: The bottles do have a ~1mm ring around the beer surface (not visible in the picture)

 

[aowron]

Another picture, this time from another, opened bottle. I'm getting a smell which I'm not really sure of whether it's yeast or vinegar (vinegar should mean lactobacillicus, right?); but only when smelling it in the bottle. When poured up in a glass, it smells like, well, beer. No sour taste either. A ph-strip gives me somewhere between 4-5.

 

[Bowen1911]

Did you boil your priming water? You could have/had an infection in your faucet.

 

[aowron]

Did you boil your priming water? You could have/had an infection in your faucet.

Went with coopers carbonation tabs, so no priming water required. Just stumbled upon: http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/13/problem-identification-or-helping-a-buddy-stay-in-the-hobby/ though, and possibly, since I've never taken the braumeister tap apart and cleaned it, that might be the culprit. Well, I'm off to the hardware store; should probably be able to post some pretty nasty pictures of a gunked up spigot and seals soon...

I had always thought that the heat from the brew would sanitize the tap, although the tap hasn't been that hot to the touch when I've been brewing previously (and I mean, if it would be sterilized from the heat, I assume touching it would have scolded me).

Edit: Couldn't disassemble the tap, so can unfortunately not post any disgusting gunked up spigot pictures; but considering that everything else has been replaced; and the infection still is present, it has to be the tap.

 

[aowron]

Ended up ordering a new ball valve + spigot elbow. It seems like Speidel for some weird reason are using the 3/8" bspp standard for the Braumeister 10 (we use NPT here in Sweden, but maybe we're just an exception in that aspect when compared to the pipe standards of other European countries; still though, Germans going with a British standard is like Honda buying motorcycle engines from Triumph...).

Now just let's hope that this is the culprit.

 

[BrewInspector]

Some quick thoughts...
Quit using soap to clean anything.
Clean the bottles without soap. Use PBW if you like. Rinse well after cleaning. Heat them if you want. Then just prior to bottling get the interior of the bottles wet with the Star San and fill with beer while they are still wet. Cap with Star San rinsed caps.