PicoBrew Zymatic

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Ya, ok Bellevue....;-)

Just heard back from the manufacturer of the pumps Picobrew uses....not rated for anything over 140F degrees. No wonder folks are having pump issues. I hope they changed those to something that can handle boiling water for the new Z series, otherwise I just wasted 2 Grand.

Of course, I guess they could have had the manufacturer produce a "one off" diaphragm pump that can handle 212F degrees, but I'll bet they didn't, because I used the model number on the pump to look it up on their website.

It's too bad Picobrew uses such draconian tactics for some users, could be a top notch outfit if they tried. I'd say buyer beware for the new Z series or any Picobrew product. If you purchase, just be aware of what you are getting. I'm not too disgruntled to cancel my order for the Z2 though, I know what I am in for.

Definitely recommend the product, the company...not so much.
 
Who makes the pumps?

Not sure what triggered the angst, and i’m Not prying (not curious enough to care); on my side I have had quite a few questions in since I received my Pico, and they had been helpful. From excellent to ok. There is one agent who does not go the extra mile but is still helpful. He gives the bare minimum but it suffice. Others are top notch and very helpful. Combined with their online support, I was able to get all the answers I needed. While the company still feels like a startup, I would actually recommend them. I don’t know about Speidel, Brew Boss or Granfather support, but I heard brewbot and other Kickstarter were ateocious and terrible. My only complaint is the internet dependence. I want to be able to brew whenever I want. I certainly don’t like the idea of being prevented from brewing because a server is down or anything like that. I purchased an appliance not Brewing as a service service (BaaS). That’s one of the reasons why I did not go for the W2. Another was the fact they did not offer me the rebate I thought I still had, that’s another story.

Efficiency and easy of use is there. Support as well from my point of view. Durability is to be proven. Value.... not sure about the Z series. A Pico U or Pico C is an easy sell for a new home brewer. The initial investment is small and they get great results to make them like the craft. We have to give them that. A zymatic at $600 isn’t bad of you can find one. A Z2 at full price? I’d consider something myself... well, i did.

Anyhow, best of luck and hopefully both of you will make amend when you get your Z2. I have been happy with them so far and made it right when things broke or started going wonky. That’s why I recommend them to anyone wanting to brew their own at home.
 
Yea, the problem with their support and why everyone thinks they are stellar, is that everyone takes them at their word. That and every time someone has a problem it turns out to be a cracked step filter, leaks from the step filter plugs or a cleaning issue. They are great at solving those kinds of issues. Very helpful in fact and I had no problems with them for two years.

However, if its not one of those, then you have to send the unit back and wait 2 to 3 weeks. Heaven forbid you question them, they really hate that. In fact, my whole draining issue revolved around them telling me my problem was a cleaning issue and me questioning them. Turns out it wasn't a cleaning issue. I fixed it myself after I tore the unit down. After seeing the bottom end, I nearly flipped out thinking "how the hell can they tell me its a cleaning issue?" Literally, its the duck valve in the step filter, a piece of tubing, the drain pump, another piece of tubing and the output line to the keg.

Kevin, at Picobrew support, told me that he never saw a diaphragm go bad and that they don't supply Zymatic parts to customers. He said I was free to go try and source the parts myself, but I'd get no help from them. Thats when I contacted SeaFlo, the manufacturer of the pump, to see what they recommend. They told me the 21 series pump should be used in 140F or less environments. In fact, SeaFlo doesn't manufacture a pump for boiling liquid environments. No wonder they didn't want anyone opening the Zymatics up.

Pretty sure they have some very egotistical folks over there and think they are the "only qualified folks to troubleshoot the Zymatic" as Doug has said numerous times on the forums. That's a joke. I had that pump issue identified in just a short amount of time while they were still scrambling around telling me it was a cleaning issue.

The whole issue could have been resolved in the first few days if they would just learn to give some folks a little more credit than they do.

Anyway, I won't openly support them anymore and I surely won't agree to their support division getting an A+. That's reserved for departments that actually put the customer first. I'd say they are average.
 
Pretty sure they have some very egotistical folks over there and think they are the "only qualified folks to troubleshoot the Zymatic" as Doug has said numerous times on the forums. That's a joke. I had that pump issue identified in just a short amount of time while they were still scrambling around telling me it was a cleaning issue.

The whole issue could have been resolved in the first few days if they would just learn to give some folks a little more credit than they do.

While I understand your frustration, despite having had a similar situation the impression I left with was far more positive.

Despite my PicoBrew being well out of warranty when my heating loop stopped heating, their support staff helped me disassemble my unit to test parts that were potentially problematic and when it became obvious that - similar to your problem - the issue was with one of the pumps, they set up an exchange at their expense -- again, despite being well outside of the warranty period. The degree of support I've received from PicoBrew is the only reason I signed up for the Z "kickstarter" rather than holding out and waiting for the initial reviews to come in.

I think the thing you might not be thinking of is the potential liability issues that could arise if they were to encourage users to tinker with the heat loop directly. If they were to encourage tinkering and someone was to either get injured or set his/her house on fire, I can only imagine the blowback that would ensue. In this regard, however, they're reacting exactly the same way as most consumer electronics manufacturers that I've dealt with. Most have a list of select fixes/parts they support, and portions of their assembly that they effectively declare "off limits" to the end consumer.
 
Thorrak, as far as them allowing this anymore "their support staff helped me disassemble my unit to test parts that were potentially problematic", they do not. Doug and I had a couple of very long discussions about this exact thing and he specifically told me these things "for liability reasons, we cannot allow for customers to perform repairs within the base of their unit...In some cases (typically international only), we have shipped replacement components for user servicing...Anything within the base of the unit is considered non-user serviceable and we will not budge on that standing...As for pumps shipped, there is no one size fits all and while our procedure is to bring units in rather than have them worked on in the field, there will always be a fringe case. This is an extremely rare occurrence and only happens for very fringe cases (an investor with mechanical knowledge, an international customer, a customer without a box and mechanically inclined)."

My whole issue with the support team is the draconian tactics they use, after all, I paid $2K for this unit and I own it outright, I can do what I please with it. And I wasn't asking for warranty repair, my unit is over two years old. I asked them for a parts list and a price sheet so I could perform my own repairs. They refused and initially told me some things that turned out to be untrue and when I called them out on it, they had to backpedal. Had they been open and honest up front, my unit would have gotten returned and they would have fixed it for free and none of this would have happened. Up until this point I would have rated them a solid A+, but I had not had any real dealings with them yet. And I think that is why most folks who deal with them rate them highly.

So, I guess if you base your support team rating on the fact that they will repair your Zymatic for free and pay for shipping both ways then yea, sure, A+. But the quality of a support department goes way beyond the fact they are honoring an out of date warranty. Its about interacting with people, understanding each specific person and their uniquie situation, then applying the right amount of technical support to solve the issue. That's an A+ rating.

Treating everyone the same, assuming its a user issue all the time and having the customer repeatedly follow the same troubleshooting steps for over a month, before finally coming to the conclusion that the unit might need to be shipped back, no way...that's average at best.

I am a highly skilled and technical engineer and granted they didn't know me from Adam, but a quick conversation to determine technical abilities could have led to a much happier ending. Once they figured out who I was, what my knowledge level was, I got booted from the forums and they told me this "While forums are a place to share knowledge, information regarding internal workings of the units to the level you have shared is not allowed as, in many occasions, it has led to folks that do not have the skill set you have accumulated opening up their units in order to see what can be done. It is because of this that we have cracked down on many folks in the past. Discussing connections to kegs and brewing techniques are allowed; discussing the internal composure of the units or attributing issues to certain aspects which may lead to a layman attempting to perform field surgery on their units is not.". No sir, they do not have any real customer relations experts over there. I've been in the industry long enough to have dealt with some actual A+ customer support teams.

But like I said, I'm not disgruntled beyond repair, frustrated, for sure, but if the new Z series is what they claim, I shouldn't have to deal with their support department very often, if at all, never hopefully. I like the possibilities of the Z2, I like my Zymatic, but its hard to be silent about their support department when you know better. I hope no one else has an issue like I have had to deal with, but if you do, don't have many conversations with them and just ship your unit back, rate them an A+ and go about your day.
 
Picobrew's support isn't all that "high level" in my opinion. Two to three day response times, only support is via email and if you have a problem that is more than a cleaning issue...good luck getting them to help too much. Send your machine back and wait 2 to 3 weeks to get it fixed. The one nice thing is that they are honoring the warranty even several years later, so they are not all bad, but one guy in particular over there shouldn't be working in customer support...

I have owned the Zymatic since June of 2016, never had a problem until only recently, which is why I jumped on the opportunity to preorder the Z2. But in Jan 2018 I started having erratic boiling behavior and poor draining issues, which a lot of other folks on their forums are complaining about. Since I couldn't get the level of support I was looking for, I opened my Zymatic, tore it down to the bare bones and fixed it myself. When I asked about spare parts they told me they don't sell parts to users, but after looking at the skeleton of the unit, the only thing you can't replace off the shelf is the control board. About all you could do with that would be to hack in a RPi and write code yourself.

Opening it up did come with a consequence though. They banned me from the forums because now I "know too much" and they don't want that information getting out to other users.

Picobrew has basically abandoned its Zymatic users and if you have access to their forums you can go read about all of the disgruntled folks they have over there. They have made a whole bunch of promises over the years and have not really kept their end of the bargain. No one really talks bad about them because they use draconian tactics to keep them quiet.

As to the need for an internet connection, I know a guy who has a way around that so you can run offline.


WOW I thought I was alone. Because they do such a good job of keeping this kind of stuff quiet. I was banned for complaining about one of their CS employees stalking facebook forums and serving to "quell disinfo". Of course he did it with a smug attitude. Basically you are at the mercy of Kevin and he can get pretty moody so if your ticket to replace your 4th step filter takes a few days that is why. The current debacle regarding not being able to get the Still work with the Zymatic is just sad. Anyone who complains about this or brings up the fact that it was supposed to be their flagship product is silenced.
 
Thorrak, as far as them allowing this anymore "their support staff helped me disassemble my unit to test parts that were potentially problematic", they do not. Doug and I had a couple of very long discussions about this exact thing and he specifically told me these things "for liability reasons, we cannot allow for customers to perform repairs within the base of their unit...In some cases (typically international only), we have shipped replacement components for user servicing...Anything within the base of the unit is considered non-user serviceable and we will not budge on that standing...As for pumps shipped, there is no one size fits all and while our procedure is to bring units in rather than have them worked on in the field, there will always be a fringe case. This is an extremely rare occurrence and only happens for very fringe cases (an investor with mechanical knowledge, an international customer, a customer without a box and mechanically inclined)."

My whole issue with the support team is the draconian tactics they use, after all, I paid $2K for this unit and I own it outright, I can do what I please with it. And I wasn't asking for warranty repair, my unit is over two years old. I asked them for a parts list and a price sheet so I could perform my own repairs. They refused and initially told me some things that turned out to be untrue and when I called them out on it, they had to backpedal. Had they been open and honest up front, my unit would have gotten returned and they would have fixed it for free and none of this would have happened. Up until this point I would have rated them a solid A+, but I had not had any real dealings with them yet. And I think that is why most folks who deal with them rate them highly.

So, I guess if you base your support team rating on the fact that they will repair your Zymatic for free and pay for shipping both ways then yea, sure, A+. But the quality of a support department goes way beyond the fact they are honoring an out of date warranty. Its about interacting with people, understanding each specific person and their uniquie situation, then applying the right amount of technical support to solve the issue. That's an A+ rating.

Treating everyone the same, assuming its a user issue all the time and having the customer repeatedly follow the same troubleshooting steps for over a month, before finally coming to the conclusion that the unit might need to be shipped back, no way...that's average at best.

I am a highly skilled and technical engineer and granted they didn't know me from Adam, but a quick conversation to determine technical abilities could have led to a much happier ending. Once they figured out who I was, what my knowledge level was, I got booted from the forums and they told me this "While forums are a place to share knowledge, information regarding internal workings of the units to the level you have shared is not allowed as, in many occasions, it has led to folks that do not have the skill set you have accumulated opening up their units in order to see what can be done. It is because of this that we have cracked down on many folks in the past. Discussing connections to kegs and brewing techniques are allowed; discussing the internal composure of the units or attributing issues to certain aspects which may lead to a layman attempting to perform field surgery on their units is not.". No sir, they do not have any real customer relations experts over there. I've been in the industry long enough to have dealt with some actual A+ customer support teams.

But like I said, I'm not disgruntled beyond repair, frustrated, for sure, but if the new Z series is what they claim, I shouldn't have to deal with their support department very often, if at all, never hopefully. I like the possibilities of the Z2, I like my Zymatic, but its hard to be silent about their support department when you know better. I hope no one else has an issue like I have had to deal with, but if you do, don't have many conversations with them and just ship your unit back, rate them an A+ and go about your day.

Ah I see you met Doug. He is a complete jack!@%!.
 
Ya, ok Bellevue....;-)

Just heard back from the manufacturer of the pumps Picobrew uses....not rated for anything over 140F degrees. No wonder folks are having pump issues. I hope they changed those to something that can handle boiling water for the new Z series, otherwise I just wasted 2 Grand.

Of course, I guess they could have had the manufacturer produce a "one off" diaphragm pump that can handle 212F degrees, but I'll bet they didn't, because I used the model number on the pump to look it up on their website.

It's too bad Picobrew uses such draconian tactics for some users, could be a top notch outfit if they tried. I'd say buyer beware for the new Z series or any Picobrew product. If you purchase, just be aware of what you are getting. I'm not too disgruntled to cancel my order for the Z2 though, I know what I am in for.

Definitely recommend the product, the company...not so much.

In the exact same boat as you having dealt with a failed pump, stepper arm and the never ending step filter leaks. Im on number 4. I really like the product and wanted to like the company but they just don't have the mindset it takes to service the type of customers that are going to be spending $2-8K on these things that expect the level of service the price tag should afford. If you want to have some real fun with them bring up their open source kick starter promise. That will get you banned, blocked and they will send a hit squad out.
 
WOW I thought I was alone...

Hardly. They have banned a lot more folks than just you and I. Like I said, Draconian tactics. Anyone who goes against anything they say gets banned. But hey, its their forum, so I guess they can do what they want. They can't however, silence us on any of the public forums and I speak out about their support department anywhere I am at. Mainly just to open everyones eyes about their tactics. Buy the product for sure, but know what you are in for if something goes wrong.

And oh yea, Kevin is notorious for getting butthurt. I'd like to meet him at one of the conventions and have a public conversation about the engineering and software of the Zymatic. Specifically, why they chose to use a pump that the manufacturer clearly states should not be used in that environment. Engineer much? Doubt it.

And just so you know, they monitor everything over there. I asked Doug how he was able to see some of my history, since I deleted a whole bunch of batches and recipes, and he said they have access to everything, even deleted information. So I'd be careful if you are on their forums still. Heck I wouldn't put it past them to monitor your private messages between users.

But what can you say about a company who gets into bed with ABInBev....
 
Hardly. They have banned a lot more folks than just you and I. Like I said, Draconian tactics. Anyone who goes against anything they say gets banned. But hey, its their forum, so I guess they can do what they want. They can't however, silence us on any of the public forums and I speak out about their support department anywhere I am at. Mainly just to open everyones eyes about their tactics. Buy the product for sure, but know what you are in for if something goes wrong.

And oh yea, Kevin is notorious for getting butthurt. I'd like to meet him at one of the conventions and have a public conversation about the engineering and software of the Zymatic. Specifically, why they chose to use a pump that the manufacturer clearly states should not be used in that environment. Engineer much? Doubt it.

And just so you know, they monitor everything over there. I asked Doug how he was able to see some of my history, since I deleted a whole bunch of batches and recipes, and he said they have access to everything, even deleted information. So I'd be careful if you are on their forums still. Heck I wouldn't put it past them to monitor your private messages between users.

But what can you say about a company who gets into bed with ABInBev....

I definitely did not do enough research beyond cursory reviews when I pulled the trigger. The mood even in the picobrew.com run forum seems to be pretty bad and that place seems to be a ghost town. Pico run facebook groups seem to be all cheer leading but its all pico/pico pack talk. Then i discovered the non pico run groups around the time of my heat exchanger repair debacle. Lessons learned. I put in on the Z2 only based on the pricing and a chance to get rid of my Zymatic while upgrading like everyone else but I'm wondering If I'm better off just learning a valuable expensive lesson and get back into a more traditional system. I came from BIAB and hadn't brewed for about a decade. I was definitely able to get back into it with the Zymatic and I think its a great machine if it had a few really stupid design flaws fixed. But with inconsistent support and the shadow ownership by Inbev I think that spell trouble long term. Maybe I'll just ship it back to them full of spent grain that has sat in the sun for a few days and call it a loss when it finally gives up the ghost.
 
I'm still debating whether or not I'll return my Zymatic, since they are only giving me $600 back on trade in. I think I can dismantle it, repair the engineering errors and along with the new Z2 have a couple of good pilot machines. On the list would be to replace the two pumps with a couple that can actually handle boiling water, add a glycol reservoir, swap out the board with a RPi so I can run standalone and replace the step filter with a stainless steel version.
 
Well its July and no news and nothing shipping. Cancelled my Z2 pre-order. Its going towards a Spike 15 Gallon. Keeping the Zymatic though for small batches , testing and when I just don't feel like going through the motions of a larger batch. The more I look at the new Z I just can't get my head around why anyone would want to pay that non preorder price to deal with X2,3 or 4 times the problems of a Z1. Professional grade. lolz. Biggest gripe is no technical information is being released. What is the efficiency of the redesign? Does it still have issues brewing decent IPAs without a lot of trial and error. What is changing in the recipe editor? They don't exactly have a good track record with things like software updates so I'm going to be shocked if its anything but some trivial bug fixes to problems that have been out there since 2015.
 
Don't expect Picobrew to do anything when they say they will..they are notorious for not meeting expectations and under-performing... I sure am hoping you are wrong about the improvements to the new Z series, but I won't bet against you. If they have not changed their pumps to something that can handle boiling water, about 1000 people just got screwed.

Gut Pile, stay in contact with me over the next several months, I'm working on a couple of projects for the brewery that I think you will appreciate.
 
From Picobrews latest news release:

"We're now aiming for a first customer ship in August. "

So like everyone has said...they are notorious for being behind.

And from this image they sent out it looks like they still have some work to do. Notice the ribbon cable coming out from behind the display. Also, they still have a problem with the grain bed separating and causing channeling. The inline filter looks to be an exact match to that of my Zymatic in which the o-ring has failed. Would have been nice if they would have used quick disconnects for the fluid lines at the side of Z, can't really tell from the pic, but it looks like they go into a strain relief.

Z series.png


I'm glad they put the pumps on top of the unit instead of below the step filter, but I'm wondering if they have made it any easier to get into and replace parts and if they have changed the pumps to something more robust and fixed the heating loop.

As you can see from this image of the inside of my Zymatic, its not easy to replace anything in there as is this under the step filter and buttoned up like fort knox. But I broke down my Zym, pulled both pumps out, dismantled them and cleaned them up really good. You can also see where there was a bubble in my glycol loop, which I burped since I could hear it cavitating when the unit was turned on. Hopefully they put some kind of a reservoir in there so a guy can top off. I have heard they changed the glycol loop to a different kind of heat loop but I'm not sure what they went to.

My biggest concern about the new Z is whether or not they made it a bit more user serviceable so you don't have to rebox and ship back for some fairly easy repairs.


20180501_134602.jpg
 
Got another update on the new Z series....I was really hoping they got rid of that stupid rotary dial to select menu items, I hate that thing on my Zymatic. They posted this link to a YouTube video showing the rotary dial in action....ooooohhhhh aaaahhhhh



They have started using the MSP430 and the ESP32, hopefully they won't make hardware mods to them so a guy can just swap them out if there is an issue.

Full update here: https://mailchi.mp/picobrew/software-takes-the-spotlight?e=a5bc9e3bcf
 
So what is the downside to using a pump that is not rated for 212? Is there plastic that leaches out of the pump housing? Or do they just have issues pumping that hot of liquid?

I'm in on the Z1 and the pumps kind of concern me honestly. I know it is one of the things that is supposedly updated but selling a 2k machine with pumps not rated on the zymatic is questionable at a 2k machine. I was wondering how they came up with diaphragm pumps that handled boiling liquid as they are expensive. Now I see they just used cheap ones and are hoping to get away with it. I was building my own automatic brew appliance but could not source a decent diaphragm pump for cheap. But I really do not know the ramifications of using one that is not rated at 212.

Now that I compare the photo with a stock seaflo pump I see that the housing is white instead of red or black that stock is. I wonder if they manufactured a special plastic that handles the heat?
 
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Got another update on the new Z series....I was really hoping they got rid of that stupid rotary dial to select menu items, I hate that thing on my Zymatic. They posted this link to a YouTube video showing the rotary dial in action....ooooohhhhh aaaahhhhh



They have started using the MSP430 and the ESP32, hopefully they won't make hardware mods to them so a guy can just swap them out if there is an issue.

Full update here: https://mailchi.mp/picobrew/software-takes-the-spotlight?e=a5bc9e3bcf


In the same boat as you and Pile. I got the Zymatic in late 16 and while I love it compared to biab on a stove but it has fallen short mostly due to Picobrew's resistance to opening the system up and being open to self repair. I'm working on a replacement API since I've had so many brew days ruined from it just refusing to cooperate with wifi and observed actual pico server outages and crashes. Though this wont be possible with the new gen Z since it looks like its going to do self firmware updates and ssl. The way the API works is really going to piss anyone off with a programming background. Their http requests violate RFC2396 by throwing non ascii characters into the request (wiresharked) requiring an http server that doesnt implement this. Out of the box Kestrel and (I assume IIS) throw bad http requests when the Zymatic hits them. Its constantly pinging back home for no good reason and rather than fire and forget for data recording appears to keep some kind of retry buffer that eventually just crashes the unit. Bring this up to them and BAN HAMMER. If you get a chance can you post some of the part details from your teardown/repair. We need something like an actual service manual and parts manifest for this thing because I really don't feel like having a $2K investment subject to the whims of Kevin.
 
So what is the downside to using a pump that is not rated for 212? Is there plastic that leaches out of the pump housing? Or do they just have issues pumping that hot of liquid?

I'm in on the Z1 and the pumps kind of concern me honestly. I know it is one of the things that is supposedly updated but selling a 2k machine with pumps not rated on the zymatic is questionable at a 2k machine. I was wondering how they came up with diaphragm pumps that handled boiling liquid as they are expensive. Now I see they just used cheap ones and are hoping to get away with it. I was building my own automatic brew appliance but could not source a decent diaphragm pump for cheap. But I really do not know the ramifications of using one that is not rated at 212.

Now that I compare the photo with a stock seaflo pump I see that the housing is white instead of red or black that stock is. I wonder if they manufactured a special plastic that handles the heat?


Viperfoth, what I observed is that boiling wort tends to make the diaphragm lose pressure and begin chugging/cavitating at higher OG's. You will see that during your Heat to Boil phase, the pump will begin chugging and wort will back up into your grain bed and fill your adjunct compartments early. Beyond that, I'm not exactly sure, but can guess, that you drastically reduce the life of the pump at those temps. I did not ask SeaFlo, when I contacted them, about what type of plastics are used in the pump and if the liquid contact portions are FDA approved (like NSF approved polypropylene or santoprene), but my guess is that for a $29 pump it's a no at those temps.

I did ask them whether they had any custom options to handle boiling liquids and they said they did not. The difference in pump body colors is due to the manufacturer date of the pump, they no longer actually make the specific pump that my unit contains, as mine was built in 2015. The pump that took the place of the one I show in the photo is here: http://www.seaflo.us/product/21-series-diaphragm-water-pumps/ , but still only rated at 140 F. You can get a fairly decent diaphragm pump used to recirc hot water from solar panels for ~$50, food grade NSF certified. The SeaFlo pump in my unit is rated at 2.6LPM/0.7GPM so we aren't talking about a lot of flow.

My biggest concern is that Pico chose to even use a pump that is underrated, to get by on the cheap, then get all defensive when a customer asks about it. Like I have said, they continually told me it was a cleaning issue, until I dismantled my Zymatic, then they banned me from the forums because I knew too much.
 
In the same boat as you and Pile. ... Its constantly pinging back home for no good reason and rather than fire and forget for data recording appears to keep some kind of retry buffer that eventually just crashes the unit. Bring this up to them and BAN HAMMER. If you get a chance can you post some of the part details from your teardown/repair. We need something like an actual service manual and parts manifest for this thing because I really don't feel like having a $2K investment subject to the whims of Kevin.

Brewfreedom, Welcome to the "Pico Banned Club"!

I'll try to put together a teardown procedure, as they make it fairly difficult to get into the bottom end. I have some ideas to make that easier, but am waiting to get my new Z2, before I start the mod process on my Zymatic. I have decided not to return my Zymatic for the $600 they are offering, as I can make mods to it that separates me from Pico and actually makes it a useable system.

Yea, I'll still be tied to them for my new Z2, but that lets me be a continual "thorn of reasonability" in their side. I'm waiting for them to ban me from their Instagram and Twitter accounts next.
 
As for a manual, here is a start on some stuff I had put over on the Pico forums. I've wanted to put it somewhere else for a long time so here is as good a place as any:

======================================================================================
BASIC MODIFICATIONS
======================================================================================
Remove Poppet valves and springs from the Picobrew Keg Posts
Remove Poppet valves and springs from the Zymatic Keg Connectors
Plug the holes between the grain compartment and the Adjunct compartmenmt with Silicone (this requires that you hand clean the step filter from now on).

======================================================================================
PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE
======================================================================================
> Before every brewing session Perform a Modified Rinse
> After every brewing session perfom a Modified Rinse
> After every 3rd brewing session or after any High Gravity (>1.08) brewing session, perform a standard Clean
> After every 5th brewing session or at the first sign of any issues, perform a Deep Clean.
> Alternatively, if you brew a lot of darker beers, you can just perform the Deep Clean every 3rd brewing session.
> Every 10 brews soak your Adjunct Containers, Inline Filter Screen and all Step Filter screens in a mild bleach/water solution overnight

======================================================================================
How to Perform a Modified Rinse
======================================================================================
1. Insert a rinsed Step Filter with all screens, minus the hop containers and adjunct compartment, into the Zymatic.
2. Remove and clean the in-line filter screen and the poppet valves (keg and connections) and then replace.
3. Fill a 5 gallon bucket with very hot tap water
4. Place the black (IN to Zym) hose into the 5 gallon bucket (with a keg wand if you have not removed the poppets)
5. Place the grey (OUT from Zym) into an empty 5 gallon bucket (with a keg wand if you have not removed the poppets)
6. Run the Standard Rinse cycle. This is so Picobrew knows you are doing cleans/rinses because they will look at your history if you have any issues.
7. Access the Help/Circulate menu item and run circulate until the rinse water bucket is empty.
8. Let the Circulate run for 1 or 2 minutes to make sure the Zym is empty.

======================================================================================
How to Perform a Deep Clean
======================================================================================
Following the standard cleaning steps, add 3 gallons of water to the picobrew keg, attach to the Zym, place a Finish Powerball tablet into the Step Filter and Load and Run the cleaning recipe. This is so Picobrew knows you are doing cleans/rinses because they will look at your history if you have any issues and to clear out the "needs cleaning" message on the Brewhouse page of your Picobrew account.
Perform a Modified Rinse
Empty the 5 gallon bucket of drain water.
In a 5 gallon bucket, dissolve 1/2 cup Cascade Complete in 2 gallons of very hot tap water and put both the Black and Grey lines into it.
Circulate the cleaning solution using the Help->Circulate menu, for about 5 minutes.
Stop the Circulation, do not drain.
Turn off the Zymatic and let it sit overnight.
Next day, power on the Zymatic and run the Circulate for 15 minutes
Remove the Grey line from the clean solution bucket and place in an empty bucket
Circulate the cleaning solution into the drain bucket using the Help->Circulate menu until the clean solution bucket is empty.
Perform a Modified Rinse


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FATAL ERRORS
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FATAL ERROR #1
A safety mechanism built into the firmware generated when the temperature difference between two of the three temp sensors is greater than 50 F. There are three temperature sensors; one that tells you the wort temp as it comes out of the heat exchanger, one in the glycol solution that is being circulated through the heat loop, and one on the heating element itself. FE #1 seems to be the Wort Temp Sensor, which is located right before the wort exits the Step Filter supply tube. This error is typically caused by a leak or lack of flow on the black fitting hose side.

PROBLEMS
Black line cavitation (heard at the in-line filter)
Plugged Inline filter
In-line filter o-ring not seated or damaged
Clogged Keg Posts
Clogged Zymatic Keg Connections
Clogged Step Filter Wort Supply tube
Clogged Heat Exchanger
Flow restriction in Wort loop
Crossed Black/Grey lines
Metal lid on Keg
Foam Trap clogged
Using a non Picobrew modified keg
Black supply line restriction
Air pocket in Heat Exchanger
Failed Heater
Leak in the keg post, replace the seals (two seal per post), use keg lube
Leak in the Keg connector
Low quality suction on black line

SOLUTIONS
>Check to make sure that the the little white nylon washers are in place where the hoses screw on to the machine.

>Check to make sure that the hoses are on the proper ports (grey towards the front, black towards the back) and that those hoses are screwed tightly onto the machine.

>Check to make sure that the in-line filter is clean, not cleaning this filter after every use can lead to blocked flow. Also double check to make sure the the filter bowl is screwed on tightly and that the gasket is in place with no nicks. Apply keg seal to help make the seal.

>Check to make sure that the black ball lock fitting is attached to the keg properly; it should click into place. Ensure that your posts and ball locks are free of debris, the gaskets are properly in place without nicks, and that they are tightly fastened. Applying Keg Lube to the o-rings will help them seal.

>Disassemble and clean your keg posts. The poppet valves can become clogged with grain husks and other debris, especially if you are adding irish moss directly to the keg during boil instead of into the hop cages.

>Make sure that you have the keg posts on correctly. The keg post with the notches in the side is the "In" post which screws in on the side with the short dip tube, the one without the notches is the "Out" post which attaches to the side with the long dip tube.

>Make sure that the long dip tube is centered on the bottom of the keg, if it is skewed to the side the flow can be obstructed by the bottom of the keg. If you are using a keg that was not purchased from PicoBrew you will want to shave 1/2" (~12-13mm) off of the end of the long dip tube.

>Make sure that you have enough water in your keg. If your keg is running dry it will cause Fatal Error #1.

>Lower the keg in relation to the Zymatic

>If you are continuing to get Fatal Error #1, do not repeatedly turn the machine off and on. Enter the Help menu and select "Circulate." Allow the machine to circulate until 'Heat' and 'Wort' are within a few degrees of each other before trying to restart the recipe.

>Perform a Deep Clean
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Fatal Error #3
See FE #1, seems to be the Glycol Temp Sensor, which would be located in the glycol loop itself.
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Fatal Error #17
See FE #1, seems to be the Heating Element Sensor, which would be located on the heating element.
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Fatal Error #64 and #66
Loss of internet connectivity

SOLUTIONS
Try using the Ethernet connection and see if your problem goes away.
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======================================================================================
OTHER COMMON ISSUES
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>Stepper Arm Error

CAUSE
Lack of grease in the stepper arm seal
Old wort leaving sticky residue in the seal caused by a prior leak


SOLUTIONS
Perform a Deep Clean
Dismantle stepper arm assembly and clean and lube
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>Boil Issues (erratic behavior observed in your brew chart)

CAUSE
Poor wort flow (air leaks or wort leaks in the Black line)
Clogged HEX loop

SOLUTIONS
See Fatal Error #1
Perform a Deep Clean
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>Poor Draining/Wort backing up into the grains in the Step Filter during Heat to Temp Pass-Thru steps or during Adjunct Boil steps.

CAUSE
Duck Valve clogged
Step Filter Mash drain clogged
Grey drain line clogged - Keg Connections/Keg Posts
Failed Drain Pump
Drain Pump Pressure over 20 psi
Failed Main Board
Clogged drain pump diaphragm
Bad connection to the main board


SOLUTIONS
Refer to Fatal Error #1
Perform a Deep Clean
Reseat the main board connector
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Leaks

SOLUTIONS
Check for cracks in the Step Filter
Check the Duck Valve
Check the overflow rubber plugs (use keg lube)
Make sure the Zymatic is level
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Holy Crap batman ... And I was considering a Z2 ... not anymore!
What kind of a DA uses a pump that is not rated for what he is using it for?
Why do I want to depend on an internet connect to brew beer? .. :rolleyes: ..
$2000 will cover a GrainFather or BrauMeister system with cash left over and I can service it all myself.
Thanks guys ... you saved me a ton of greif. .. :bravo: ..
 
I like how the non pre-order pricing on the 10 gallon unit puts them at a higher price point than just about every system out there and way above some of the large volume single vessel systems. Brewboss will get you half way there on the automation side with some really damn good software for a fraction of the price. My Gut tells me the pre-order pricing will be the regular pricing. $7,999 is just stupid for what looks like a very cumbersome way to brew. I think its just a head fake to get revenue from existing customers, a few new ones and then when it ships late fall/early winter they dump the product again with no more updates and focus on more BS recurring revenue schemes that push their owner Inbev's agenda.
 
I see in the latest PicoBrew update that they are still using the SeaFlo pumps rated at 140 F for the new Z series....what a shame.
 

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I see in the latest PicoBrew update that they are still using the SeaFlo pumps rated at 140 F for the new Z series....what a shame.

;) I actually came here to check if anyone noticed if they upgraded it or not. Thier last email made it sound like it they were upgrading the heating components. Any idea what they use in the Pico Pro? I haven't had and issues with mine outside of a busted pump when I first got it but they sent me a new pump and let me replace it myself.
 
Got a reply from Kevin about a problem I can’t solve. Part of what I got back I read as an “update or die” response. If you thought Zymatic service was tough before....

Per Kevin:
> As of tomorrow I no longer have anyone to repair or troubleshooting. Any Zymatics coming in are going straight to the line for rebuild, which we'd need to charge for
 
Got a reply from Kevin about a problem I can’t solve. Part of what I got back I read as an “update or die” response. If you thought Zymatic service was tough before....

Per Kevin:
> As of tomorrow I no longer have anyone to repair or troubleshooting. Any Zymatics coming in are going straight to the line for rebuild, which we'd need to charge for

What problem are you having?
 
What problem are you having?
A cleaning problem. Lol.

Heat loop spikes on ramp up and the differential causes fatal #1. Can’t get through a clean. Tried 10 times, using beta V6 and regular, using hot water to assist etc. Just updated the firmware and will try one last one today. (Don’t even get me started how their instructions are vague and wrong with their unofficial Apple firmware update)

All I asked them for was to take it in and fix it. I spent two full days f’ing with it. They really don’t want these things back. It’s a weird business model to expect your customer to spend days rabbit hunting, disassembling and trying things. But maybe I am the odd one out, most folks don’t want to send it in. Idk

Since I said I will pay them to take it or I will mothball it til the new Z came because I don’t want to spend any more time trying to clean it, it has been radio silence from them. Maybe they are really busy.
 
Customer service is good, model is bad.

Back in the day when they had few units out there and the questions were more basic, the email back and forth concept worked. It was quick. Now that they have many units, the units are getting older and the issues are getting more maintenance related the email system brakes down.

It is just not reasonable to ask a question, wait half a day for a response that many times involves basic troubleshooting and a follow up question. Then you answer and the waiting circle begins. Several hours and days can go by. If you are, heaven forbid, at work when you get their email, then you have to wait all day to try their solution when you get home. Then you have to email them after hours and wait til tomorrow. This could take several frustrating days. A simple conversation could have narrowed the issue quickly.

I think the people are good but the structure of the system is painful and not efficient. Add to that not having or wanting a repair facility and one really wonders what they are thinking beyond the sale.
 
A cleaning problem. Lol.

Heat loop spikes on ramp up and the differential causes fatal #1. ...

You need to perform a deep clean. Follow my procedure I posted earlier...a few posts back. That will most likely solve your initial problem and let you get through a clean. Also try equalizing your temps using the circulate every time you get the F1 error until you can complete the cycle.

I have a full procedure in this thread you can follow.
 
Okay, so I took out the poppets in both connectors and posts. Now the cleaning cycle runs but it drains out to fast and the water never gets over the screen at the bottom.
 
Okay, so I took out the poppets in both connectors and posts. Now the cleaning cycle runs but it drains out to fast and the water never gets over the screen at the bottom.


How much water are you adding to the keg for your cleaning cycle? But in all reality, that is what you want during cleaning. Are you using Kevins clean recipe, or the actual clean?
 
I see in the latest PicoBrew update that they are still using the SeaFlo pumps rated at 140 F for the new Z series....what a shame.

Hard to tell if it is an 'upgraded' one or not. Maybe they at least moved on to the 1.2GPM one. The 0.7 version was not nearly strong enough.
 
Hard to tell if it is an 'upgraded' one or not. Maybe they at least moved on to the 1.2GPM one. The 0.7 version was not nearly strong enough.

Yea, that would help....SeaFlo doesn't make any pumps rated for boiling temps though and those pumps look exactly like SeaFlo's. Was hoping they found a different supplier.
 
It looks like Kevin is getting mad that people are starting to take their machines apart. Wait till this dude finds out what millions of people do with their cars in their garages every weekend. The horrors!!!

"A handful of concerned users have been reaching out in regards to some statements they've seen someone making that the pumps used in our machines are not food safe or rated for the temperatures at which they are being used.

1. We worked very closely with the supplier/manufacturer to determine which pumps were best for our needs and application.

2. These are not off-the-shelf pumps. The pumps used in our products have been modified by the manufacturer to fit our needs.

3. The 140°F (60°C) maximum recommended temperature has absolutely nothing to do with the temperature of the liquid going through the pump head. This is the maximum recommended temperature of the ENVIRONMENT in which the pump is being operated. A cooling fan in the base of the machine ensures that the pumps are not operating at this temperature.

4. When we selected our pumps, we were assured by the manufacturer that they can be safely operated at up to 212°F (100°C). The maximum boil temp for a Zymatic is 207°F (less at higher altitudes). This is slightly above the manufacturers specs for these pumps (~200°F if I recall correctly), but this is in relation to the 10,000+ hour expected operating lifespan of the pumps, not whether the pump materials used are food grade at those temperatures. The few degree temperature difference here is so small that it will have little impact on the lifespan of the pump.

5. Dissuading our customers from opening their machines and attempting to perform their own repairs has nothing to do with PicoBrew trying to hide something about the components used in our products and everything to do with the safety of our customers and ensuring that our products are operating correctly and within our specifications. Do not open or disassemble your machine unless specifically instructed to do so by a PicoBrew team member, doing this will void your warranty. There are certain repairs that can be performed by users in the field with help and instructions from PicoBrew staff, but in most cases, components in the base of the machine (Pumps and HEX Loops) are difficult to replace in the field and require a series of tests to ensure that they are operating withing spec. On extremely rare occasions we have walked users through these repair procedures, but those cases were entirely based on the situation, and few and far between. Zymatics brought in for repair are serviced on the exact same assembly line on which they were built, and must pass the exact same series of tests as any brand new Zymatic.

6. Anyone advocating that users open their machines and perform their own repairs without being specifically instructed by a PicoBrew team member to do so, or promoting other actions that void product warranties, could potentially cause injury to users, or may cause permanent damage to one of our products, will be ejected from the user forums."
 
Hmmmm. I was informed that. “I would have to charge you for parts and labor” for them to look at my machine for an issue... because I was out of warrantee. So the warrantee comments likely mean zero to anyone interested. Regarding kicking you out of the Forums, that seems a bit petty. You bad influence you...
 
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Ha ha ha ha.....Picobrew and their draconian tactics strikes again!!!

I like this comment "...or may cause permanent damage to one of our products...". Well, sorry to burst your bubble, but Zymatic users OWN their machines not you, paid $2000 for them and just because it will "void the warranty" usually never stops anyone, nor can you force us to OBEY.

What Kevin fails to understand is that a lot of us have engineering and software skills that are far superior to some of the folks at Picobrew. Note I said some. A lot of their issues could be resolved if they treated those folks with the respect they are due. True, not everyone has those skills, but a few quick questions and they would be able to figure it out and have a much happier customer base. Homebrewers and Pro brewers are not a "one size fits all".

In response to his "off the shelf" comment, here is the note I got from SeaFlo:


From: Sea Flo <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2018 3:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Message from Mike Howard


Hello,

None of our pumps can move more than 140 F water.



Message from Mike Howard

Name
Mike Howard

Questions / Comments
Do you guys have any water pressure diaphragm pumps (21 series, 42 series, 52 series) that can move boiling water?


So he is either mistaken in the "140 F Environment" comment or he is outright lying to shut down the conversation. I'll concede that SeaFlo may very well make a special pump for them that can handle those temps, but when I took mine apart, they didn't look like a "commercial" unit, they looked exactly like an "off the shelf" unit. The pump head was made from the same soft parts. Don't you think they would have removed the "retail" label from the pump?

"When we selected our pumps, we were assured by the manufacturer that they can be safely operated at up to 212°F" - Sounds like passing the buck on to SeaFlo if it turns out that the pumps should not be used with those temps? Recall?

I just hate how their only response to customers who DON'T FOLLOW THE RULES, is to ban them from the forums. They just don't have any customer relations experience and some of those folks should not be directly communicating with customers. Not everyone has good people skills and someone at Picobrew should be monitoring the employee communications.
 
FYI: If your in-line strainer has failed or the seal has busted here is the manufacturer of the Zymatic version.

http://www.ron-vik.com/strainers

Hopefully they are rated for near boiling temps, couldn't find a spec sheet, only this note "All of Ron-Vik's in-line strainer assemblies perform at pressures up to 150 psi at 70 degrees F and 100 psi at 125 degrees F."....and this "Ron-Vik's in-line strainers are not designed for applications where pressure spikes or water hammer is expected. Not for use in residential water systems."

I'm looking for a different source as my strainer seal is failing and tends to clog a lot and I want to install one with a much larger surface area.
 
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