Mash pH and boil kettle pH for hoppy beers

[douglasbarbin]

I am interested in learning more about how mash pH and kettle pH affect hoppy beers, particularly if I am shooting for the "Northeast"-style IPA. I was discussing a few things with a professional brewer last night, and he mentioned the following regarding his hoppy beers (which are excellent):

1. He uses a Chloride to Sulfate ratio around 2:1
2. He monitors and adjusts pH during all parts of the brewing process. Specifically, he said that pH affects "far more than just mash efficiency and grain extraction", and, "To dial in hops is to dial in pH just how you like it". He would not share the pH ranges that he shoots for during each stage of the brewing process.
3. The beer is somewhat hazy as a direct result of pH manipulation, and the beer would not be as hoppy if it were clear.

Obviously, grain bill, hops and yeast are important to this style, and I think I have that part pretty well-covered. The part I am still trying to dial in is water profile and pH, which I believe is also very important for hoppy beers (and his comments indicate that this is the case).

I did some Googling and settled on a starting point of Chloride 120 ppm and Sulfate 60 ppm, which I think is reasonable.

I Googled further and saw very little information about pH as it relates to this style. There was plenty of information about mashing at a pH of 5.2 - 5.6, but the comments from the pro brewer inferred to me that he did not use "traditional" pH ranges for his hoppy beers. I did find some information that a higher kettle pH leads to better hop utilization. I also read (on this forum, in the "Treehouse Julius clone" thread) that Annie Johnson suggests a mash pH of 4.5 - 4.8 for "Northeast"-style IPAs. The extremely low mash pH seemed questionable to me, especially if it is followed by a relatively high kettle pH. Basically I would have to acidify the mash quite a bit, then add bicarbonate to the kettle to bring the pH back up beyond a typical kettle pH. I don't know what kind of kettle pH I would target, but presumably it would be at least 5.5 and possibly a little bit higher.

Has anyone experimented with these unusual pH ranges during the mash and boil? If so, does the above hold true?

The way I see it, there are probably 2 different ways to go about this:

1. Acidify mash for low pH (4.5 - 4.8), add bicarbonate to boil kettle for high pH (5.5+)
2. "Normal" mash pH (5.2-5.6), add bicarbonate to boil kettle for high pH (5.5+)

Thoughts?

 

[ajdelange]

I am interested in learning more about how mash pH and kettle pH affect hoppy beers,

Make that any beer.

I was discussing a few things with a professional brewer last night, and he mentioned the following regarding his hoppy beers (which are excellent):

[*]He uses a Chloride to Sulfate ratio around 2:1

It isn't just the ratio but the absolute values as well. There are 2 degrees of freedom. 2 mg of chloride and 1 of sulfate is not the same as 200 of chloride and 100 of sulfate.

[*]He monitors and adjusts pH during all parts of the brewing process. Specifically, he said that pH affects "far more than just mash efficiency and grain extraction",

He is absolutely right there. pH mediates any enzymatic reaction and there are lots of those in making beer. Lower mash pH, for example, improves beer flavor whereas higher kettle pH increases hops utilization.

"To dial in hops is to dial in pH just how you like it".

You should really be dialing in the pH of every step of the process in order to produce the best, by whatever you optimality critria, beer. Your commercial guy has the "luxury" of brewing the same beer several times a week and thus has much more opportunity to tweak,

[*]The beer is somewhat hazy as a direct result of pH manipulation, and the beer would not be as hoppy if it were clear.

Lower pH improves colloidal stability.

 

[douglasbarbin]

Thanks, AJ. Do you think I am on the right track here with regards to increasing hop perception in hoppy beers? Also, do those pH ranges make sense to you? Specifically, I am talking about 4.5 - 4.8 for the mash (John Kimmich is also known for saying 5.1 - 5.3), although I don't know if that measurement is taken at room temperature or mash temperature. For the boil kettle, does 5.5 or above sound totally out of line, or would that increase hops utilization?

 

[zwiller]

Keep in mind when pro brewers quote pH figures they might be deliberately? misleading you by not quoting based on room temp like us homebrewers. I suspect 4.5-4.8 is a mash temp figure that would translate to 4.8-5.1 room temp. I definitely think a lower pH would help with the NE IPA expression but like all things it’s the sum of all parts. IE - the yeast creating the silkiness and juiciness often spoke of. I attribute this low pH technique to the influence of the late Greg Noonan who trained many of the NE brewers. I think he essentially applied lager brewing techniques (lower pH) to IPAs.

pH does affect hop perception but not like you might think. When I did low pH IPAs the bitterness was really reduced. In my mind, you could actually get away with using more hops than you would typically. So in reality, lowering the pH is actually REDUCING hop utilization/expression. However, the “top notes” of the hops seem to remain. IOW, you get more the good stuff of the hops while reducing the bad. I recall over at Kai’s a german brewer considered this as a “finer” hop expression and I would agree.

If they are then later bringing the pH back up, I would say it’s after KO or even post ferment. Ever since I saw the potassium level of HT I long suspected they used potassium bicarbonate to do this. I think it reasonable to assume if they are reducing pH radically that they would need to bring it back up to ensure they effect is not so obvious.

Contrary to popular opinion, I believe the haziness of the NE IPA style is merely a boat load of hop polyphenols and not oats or some form of grain... I also think chloride does not really play a role in these beers either.

 

[lilbova3]

Keep in mind when pro brewers quote pH figures they might be deliberately? misleading you by not quoting based on room temp like us homebrewers. I suspect 4.5-4.8 is a mash temp figure that would translate to 4.8-5.1 room temp. I definitely think a lower pH would help with the NE IPA expression but like all things it’s the sum of all parts. IE - the yeast creating the silkiness and juiciness often spoke of. I attribute this low pH technique to the influence of the late Greg Noonan who trained many of the NE brewers. I think he essentially applied lager brewing techniques (lower pH) to IPAs.



pH does affect hop perception but not like you might think. When I did low pH IPAs the bitterness was really reduced. In my mind, you could actually get away with using more hops than you would typically. So in reality, lowering the pH is actually REDUCING hop utilization/expression. However, the “top notes” of the hops seem to remain. IOW, you get more the good stuff of the hops while reducing the bad. I recall over at Kai’s a german brewer considered this as a “finer” hop expression and I would agree.



If they are then later bringing the pH back up, I would say it’s after KO or even post ferment. Ever since I saw the potassium level of HT I long suspected they used potassium bicarbonate to do this. I think it reasonable to assume if they are reducing pH radically that they would need to bring it back up to ensure they effect is not so obvious.



Contrary to popular opinion, I believe the haziness of the NE IPA style is merely a boat load of hop polyphenols and not oats or some form of grain... I also think chloride does not really play a role in these beers either.

How many times have you tried a mash pH in the 4.8-5.1 range? How did it work? Just to confirm, is that room temp pH or measured straight from the mash?

That does seem excessively low. I would have to use more lactic acid than usual to lower the pH and would worry about it effecting flavor.

It'd be scary to go that low but willing to try it if you've had good results.

 

[zwiller]

I only went really low once (5.0; all pH references @ room temp) but I made a series of progressions downward before that. It worked just like you'd suspect. However, I seem to recall clarity improved the lower I went. I can assure you however, you will definitely not ruin a beer... IE starch will convert/it will ferment/you will get drunk

Your point of lactic acid is well taken. I hate the stuff and use phosphoric acid. Once again, do we trust what has been said? From memory, these NE brewers are using a magical well supply mainly untreated and uses lactic acid to adjust. I tend to think nowadays EVERY brewer making good beer utilizes an RO system... I would use distilled to minimize any flavor nuance from acid additions.

If you're apprehensive, try one at 5.2 which is on the lower side of the accepted range. From memory, this will give you an idea of the effect. If you like it, move downward on successive brews. I still think you would want to maintain the low pH throughout the boil (to extract the finest of the hops) and perhaps throughout the ferment if you plan to dry hop. I suspect yeast might do a great job of stabilizing pH into the correct range during the ferment but that would need to be measured. You may need to bring pH up a bit to package if it is too bright/sour/obvious.