It's official. My sanitation sucks.

[cloudybrewer]

That's right, boys and girls. I apparently can't make beer without infection, which I'm floored by.

I'm a new brewer four batches in, all extract with steeping grains. The first was a Brewer's Best witbier kit and the last three have all been home Brewer ninety-nines paulaner Hefeweizen clone. The first three all had a sour, tart taste after fermentation that would not condition out once bottled, but never any signs of infection. At bottling, each beer was pretty clear, although darker than expected, with a seemingly normal yeast cake on bottom. The taste wasn't offensive, just tart. No bad smells either. After bottle conditioning, some bottles tasted the same, others were a bit worse. Even months later.

Along the way I made some process improvements which include full volume boils, a more vigorous boil, not boiling with the lid on, built a fermentation chamber with temp controller, and others, but couldn't kick this tart flavor.
These were my thoughts on each, at the time:
First batch - witbier. I thought maybe I just didn't like it.

Second batch- Paulaner clone. My yeast was about four months old and I didn't make a starter. Probably a severe under pitch since the smack pack barely swelled.

The third batch (second try at the Paulaner clone) I actually made five, one-gallon batches at the same time using different brewing water and bottle cleaning techniques trying to eliminate water issues or cleaner issues.

A. Brewed with distilled water and bottles cleaned with PBW.
B. Distilled water and bottles only rinsed well immediately after use.
C. Campden treated, filtered tap water and PBW cleaned bottles.
D. Campden treated, filtered tap water and rinsed bottles
E. Untreated, filtered tap water and PBW cleaned bottles.
Of course, all bottles were sanitized with Star San before filling.

They were all pretty similar. So much for water issues. Tart and just not good. If you were at someone's house and they gave you this beer, you'd drink it to be nice, and avoid having another.

Another try, and again fermentation smelled the same. Not terrible, but not very pleasant either. At 17 days, today, I pulled a sample from the airlock hole. Same copper color, same unappealing aroma, amplified bad taste. So I opened the bucket​ to dump it and holy Christ what did I just put in my mouth! Gray with black speckles pond scum on top and a rancid look underneath. FML. Hope I'm not dead in the morning.

SO, were all my beers actually infected or just the last one and the rest had another issue. I can't wrap my head around this as I feel I am very careful post boil. EVERYTHING gets​ hit with star San multiple times to make sure it stays wet until I need it and doesn't sit dry. During cooling, my thermometer gets sanitized every time it goes in the wort. I've made two starters on a stir plate and both fermented well, had nice color, and smelled pretty good at pitching. I've been reading on this and other forums for a year, as I only find time to brew every 3 - 4 months. I read Palmer's How To Brew online and bought the Complete Joy of Homebrewing. I just can't believe I can't do this. I live in the boonies. So, no clubs to join, no one to brew with for help.

If you're still reading, thank you. That was very long; just trying to answer all the most common reply questions.

 

[jabba11]

tough to say whats going on based on what you've told me I will tell you that it shouldn't be that hard honestly so there's something you are obviously missing. is your equipment all new?

 

[cloudybrewer]

A few more things on the infection.
Post boil: I used my copper immersion chiller. It sat in star San for a few minutes to clean it up, and then in the boil for 15 minutes. After that became less effective, the kettle went into a tub of ice water. I stirred with a spoon to help, which was sanitized and stayed in the kettle during this stage to make sure I didn't set it somewhere unsanitary. At 68F, I dumped into my sanitized ferm bucket and pitched my starter from the flask after sanitizing the outside. Then I used a whisk, which had been sitting in the bucket of star San, to aerate. The fermentation bucket lid was wet with star San when I put it on. The bung and blowoff assembly were also in the star San bucket. I never opened the ferm bucket in 17 days of fermentation until today. When sanitizing anything, I make sure it is wet for at least 5 minutes before I use it. I have a spray bottle that I keep things wet with.

 

[cloudybrewer]

tough to say whats going on based on what you've told me I will tell you that it shouldn't be that hard honestly so there's something you are obviously missing. is your equipment all new?

I bought everything new. I used a brand new fermentation​ bucket for the infected batch, cleaned with a wash cloth to avoid scratches.

I may not be a rocket scientist, but Im no idiot. I understand the difference between clean and sanitized and I'm​ very analytical. I agree, it just isn't this hard.

 

[jabba11]

ya got me a bit stumped casue it sounds like you understand the simple principals of it all. Seriously I have been brewing for 5 years. maybe as a guess Id say 70 to 80 brew days/batches. Ive had ONE infection and it was in my equipment. As I recall it was the siphon I was using. I bought a new one and problems went away. If your equipment is already all new Id doubt that was the problem.

 

[BeerAddikt]

It sounds like you bottle. If your beers were infected and you bottled, you would most likely have gushers. You didn't mention that so I'm thinking your first 3 were not an infection. If your last batch was indeed infected (are you certain of this? pics?) I'd consider disposing of or re-purposing whatever fermentation vessel you used or finding an effective way of sterilizing it at the least (bleach, boiling H20 if stainless, etc.).

If you ferment at too high a temp you can get a faint cider-ish tartness. Other than that I'd rethink your infected theory at minimum. Don't give up yet...simplify your process. On that note I'd also recommend using US-05, which is almost invincible as a yeast, as a starting point.

 

[FatDragon]

Your last beer sounds like it was definitely infected. The others, not necessarily. The off flavor you're dealing with might just be extract twang or fermentation temperature issues. The darker color sounds like you might be using old extract, or maybe you just don't realize how much darker a bucket full of beer looks than the same beer in a pint glass (then again, you've drunk some of these beers so that may not be the case).

I'm with @BeerAddikt in thinking that your first three beers probably weren't infected, but just weren't what you were hoping for. The fourth sounds like it was almost definitely infected, though, which almost certainly means that something in your process was not nearly as sanitary as you thought it was.

If I were you, I'd check my Starsan dilution and everything that touches the beer or that touches something that touches the beer. Heck, I'd even check the spray bottle you're using to spray your Starsan. The first three batches may have just been crappy beer (almost all of us are guilty of it from time to time), but the fourth sounds like it was definitely an infection so you need to figure out how it happened if you don't want it to happen again.

 

[jimmykx250]

Ditch the extract routine and try a batch BIAB. Sounds to me like the last batch was infected others were just bad old extract and remember extract will have a distinct flavor even if done correctly. Sanitization isnt that hard basic cleaning and star-san. Dont give up when you start nailing batches and you will its a great feeling. Dont over think it.

 

[madscientist451]

What ingredients are being used?
Maybe get a BIAB bag and some 2-row and just do a simple BIAB SMASH pale ale and see how that comes out?
When I was bottling, I noticed a slight "off" backtaste in by bottled beers after I was brewing a few years. I noticed it mostly in my cleaner lagers and light fruit beers. I have bottled beers that are several years old that aren't gushers, so I think the off taste was more of an oxidation issue.
That went away when I got my kegging gear together.
So your earlier "infections" could be from your bottling process?
Your infection in primary in your latest could be coming from your starter, if you made one? Its about the only thing I can think of if you cleaned and sanitized the bucket.
Some people have used buckets for years with no problems, but any more I only use them in the early stages of wine making.
Perhaps get a carboy? I have glass and plastic carboys, the plastic ones are lighter, safer and work great.
Can't be sure that will help, but its worth a try.
You didn't mention how you handle your star-san. I know some people spray it on, but I just mix it up in a bucket and use it in bulk to sanitize carboys, kegs and transfer equipment. It doesn't go bad, I use it over and over.
When I do bottle, the bottles are completely immersed in star san, I only pull them out and dump them right before each bottle was filled.
Big brew day is this weekend, May 6, go on the AHA website and check out your local events, bring your bucket, you may be able to get some wort. You can talk to the the other homebrewers about your problems and probably find some solutions. Bring some of your beers to sample.
The AHA website has a map that shows the big brew day sites and event details, there are a few in NW Iowa.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/aha-events/national-homebrew-day/big-brew-events/

 

[passedpawn]

Maybe the flavor you don't like is the taste of suspended yeast still in the beer. I don't like that myself. Cold crash with gelatin will mostly get rid of that quickly.

Sounds like you're doing everything right. It's been a long time since I made an extract beer, but in theory extract should make a clean flawless beer. Usually, if you start with a pitch of healthy yeast and get early fermentation, very little can go wrong. So, consider pitching dry yeast right from the packet - that will eliminate yeast health concerns.

My experience with similar problems: for a year or two I was saving yeast, freezing it with glycerin, then building up pitching quantities using multiple starters and stir plates and such. While that process might work great in a lab, I had lots of challenging results with odd flavors and bad fermentation. Screw that, I went back to buying yeast and no problems since. Yeast health is important.

 

[Homercidal]

Extract can/will give you a darker beer. It's also more likely to provide off-flavors due to age. This doesn't mean that you will automatically have issues if you brew with extract, but fresher is always better. BIAB is not a bad idea.

Honestly, it sounds like you are very acceptable of new methods to try and alleviate your problems. Why not take another step and give BIAB a shot? You can easily do this with your equipment plus 1 cheap grain bag. The hardest part is calculating the amount of grain and water. And that is actually pretty easy.

You might also want to check your water. Maybe brew with spring water instead of tap water. Even "clean" well water can have an extreme pH or alkalinity. I think it's worth it to try a different source of water when having strange flavor issues.

 

[kh54s10]

My two things to look into would be fermentation temperature. Mid sixties - wort temperature - as steady as possible during fermentation.

And extract twang.

I have only done 6-7 extracts but none of mine had the twang. I might not have the palate to detect it though. I cannot taste or describe most of the "off flavors" that others do. It is more of "this one is good", "this one is really good" or "this one is great" I have only brewed 2 bad batches, one was an extremely high gravity one that ended up way sweet. And another small batch, highly hopped that looked like green pond water after over a month. I dumped that one without even tasting it.

 

[cloudybrewer]

It sounds like you bottle. If your beers were infected and you bottled, you would most likely have gushers. You didn't mention that so I'm thinking your first 3 were not an infection. If your last batch was indeed infected (are you certain of this? pics?) I'd consider disposing of or re-purposing whatever fermentation vessel you used or finding an effective way of sterilizing it at the least (bleach, boiling H20 if stainless, etc.).

If you ferment at too high a temp you can get a faint cider-ish tartness. Other than that I'd rethink your infected theory at minimum. Don't give up yet...simplify your process. On that note I'd also recommend using US-05, which is almost invincible as a yeast, as a starting point.

When I dumper the last twenty or so bottles of batch three roughly six months after bottling, most of them had a typical hiss followed by a five second pause and then lots of slow foaming. They were room temp. When I open a cold bottle, this doesn't happen, only when they're warm. The very first batch, Brewer's Best witbier, I actually drank about forty of the 55 before giving up on them, so that one wasn't infection, just a tart flavor.

If this last batch isn't infected, I'd be surprised, but I've been surprised before. I'll figure out how to upload a pic. And yes, the ferm bucket is getting demoted to the garage for outside stuff.

The last three were fermented in the chamber with a controller set to 1 degree differential. I've used 68 F twice and most recently 64F.

 

[panaceabeachbum]

You would be amazed, it could be as simple as touching a barbed fitting when pushing on a hose, letting a hose touch the ground or some other simple thing you missed. I just had a sour 15 gal batch, first in 10+ years (and I brew constantly) .

Only thing I did differently was not sanitizing an oring and filter used to filter beer at racking. Beer tasted normal coming out of fermenter so I know it was somewhere downstream, hose or filter.

Youll figure it out, just assume that everything your doing isnt clean enough and go from there

 

[cloudybrewer]

Your last beer sounds like it was definitely infected. The others, not necessarily. The off flavor you're dealing with might just be extract twang or fermentation temperature issues. The darker color sounds like you might be using old extract, or maybe you just don't realize how much darker a bucket full of beer looks than the same beer in a pint glass (then again, you've drunk some of these beers so that may not be the case).

I'm with @BeerAddikt in thinking that your first three beers probably weren't infected, but just weren't what you were hoping for. The fourth sounds like it was almost definitely infected, though, which almost certainly means that something in your process was not nearly as sanitary as you thought it was.

If I were you, I'd check my Starsan dilution and everything that touches the beer or that touches something that touches the beer. Heck, I'd even check the spray bottle you're using to spray your Starsan. The first three batches may have just been crappy beer (almost all of us are guilty of it from time to time), but the fourth sounds like it was definitely an infection so you need to figure out how it happened if you don't want it to happen again.

just to be clear, the tart flavor isn't some additional flavor that some people would pick up and others not so much (as I've read extract twang described), it IS the beer. No sweet maltiness, no body, no hopp flavor (although Hefes normally don't have much hop flavor anyway).

Since I only brew a few times per year, I buy all the ingredients through Northern Brewer, and get er done as soon as possible. Each brew is mostly new ingredients with maybe a touch of leftovers from last batch.

For Star San, one ounce per five gallons of purchased distilled water mixed new each brewday. The spray bottle gets filled from that. This last time, I actually used about one tenth ounce extra, just for good measure. Maybe that's a no-no?

 

[Chanoc]

Do you do a diacetyl rest?
I would put my money on that

 

[cloudybrewer]

Ditch the extract routine and try a batch BIAB.

I would love to, as that is my end goal. I really want to do BIAB, since I have no desire whatsoever to have a mash tun, extra kettles, pumps, what have you.

BUT, if I can't even figure out boiling, cooling, and dumping in a bucket, I'm guessing that adding water-building, exact mash temps, mash pH, and batch sparging just isn't in the cards right now.

 

[FatDragon]

I would love to, as that is my end goal. I really want to do BIAB, since I have no desire whatsoever to have a mash tun, extra kettles, pumps, what have you.

BUT, if I can't even figure out boiling, cooling, and dumping in a bucket, I'm guessing that adding water-building, exact mash temps, mash pH, and batch sparging just isn't in the cards right now.

Nonsense. Ignore water-building, pH, and sparging for your first effort, and don't worry too much about exact mash temps or efficiency. Use a strike water calculator to estimate the strike temperature you need, or just go the easy route with a reasonable estimate (hard to go too wrong mashing into 7.5 gallons at 158F). Mush the grain a bit when you mash in to make sure there are no clumps, cover the kettle and wrap it in a sleeping bag, blanket, or winter jacket for an hour. Drain and squeeze it as well as you can (suspended over the kettle as you start your boil. Over an upturned colander in a bucket. Sitting in the bottom of a bucket that you drain off every few minutes, etc.). Boil, chill (or get a no-chill cube and try that method, hard to get an infection in a sealed container that was sterilized by five gallons of boiling wort), pitch, ferment, package, and drink. All the time, sanitize, sanitize, sanitize. Maybe buy some iodophor and use that instead of your Starsan - it's not as sexy but it actually kills more bugs.

BIAB brewing takes longer than an extract batch and it's a little more complicated, but there's no reason you couldn't give it a try right away. If the extract is part of your problem, it's possible a BIAB batch would clear it up nicely.

One more question: when did you start using fermentation temperature control? If your first three batches were all fermented at ambient temperatures and only the most recent (infected) one was temp-controlled, it's possible the off-flavor was fermentation temperature related and the most recent, infected batch wouldn't have had that issue if it hadn't gotten infected. Also, when you control your fermentation temps, what temperature do you set the chamber to and how does your temperature controller measure the temperature (i.e. where is the probe)? If you're using kit instructions, they might also suggest temps that are way too high (my first brew said to use S-04 at 24C, which was a decidedly bad idea), and even if you're trying to ferment at proper temps, your beer might actually be fermenting much warmer than intended depending on how you control the temperature. Just a couple thoughts.

 

[jcav]

I used to brew a lot of extract back when I first started brewing. You know when wheat malt extract is oxidized it does get a funky tart like taste. So does Hefe type of beers that aren't fresh and they start to evolve and change as they age. They also can start to get tart as they age. The hefe yeast is also tart to some degree and it depends on what temp you fermented the beer at. You might want to try a different style and get a kit and brew that and compare and see if you get the same tart flavor. You may not. It could be many things but it could just be bad or old extract. Don't give up, we are pulling for you. You can do this!

John

 

[cloudybrewer]

1. What ingredients are being used?

2. So your earlier "infections" could be from your bottling process?

3. Your infection in primary in your latest could be coming from your starter, if you made one?

4. Perhaps get a carboy?

5. You didn't mention how you handle your star-san. I know some people spray it on, but I just mix it up in a bucket and use it in bulk to sanitize carboys, kegs and transfer equipment. It doesn't go bad, I use it over and over.

6. When I do bottle, the bottles are completely immersed in star san, I only pull them out and dump them right before each bottle was filled.

7. Big brew day is this weekend, May 6, go on the AHA website and check out your local events, bring your bucket, you may be able to get some wort.

1.
Hoptimus rex hallertau 2.7 percent
Malliard malts Belgian Munich Malt specialty malts
Fermenters Favorite Briess Bavarian Wheat DME
Muntons Extra Light DME
Wyeast 3068 or White Labs 300

The Brewer's Best kit had a dry yeast.

2. The flavor existed at bottling.

3. The starter smelled good and had a light color with lots of white yeast cake after cold crashing.

4. I plan to get either a better bottle or other clear fermenter so I can see what's​going on next time.

5. I use both methods, a few gallons in a bucket to throw stuff in and the spray bottle.

6. I do the same.

7. Not to be difficult, but I can't. The only time I have to give to this hobby comes at the expense of sleep after my family goes to bed.

 

[cloudybrewer]

Maybe the flavor you don't like is the taste of suspended yeast still in the beer. I don't like that myself.

I actually love yeasty wheat beers. The reason why I keep making this Paulaner clone is that it's my favorite beer. I always swirl the last inch of the bottle and dump it in the glass with all wheat beer.

But maybe I don't like the taste of wyeast 3068 or White Labs 300?

 

[cloudybrewer]

Why not take another step and give BIAB a shot?

You might also want to check your water. Maybe brew with spring water instead of tap water. Even "clean" well water can have an extreme pH or alkalinity. I think it's worth it to try a different source of water when having strange flavor issues.

I would love to do BIAB, but am leary of adding more steps to an already flawed process.

The third batch was actually three batches brewed and fermented at the same time, each with different water to see if that was the issue.
Distilled water
Unsoftened, filtered tap water
Unsoftened, filtered tap water treated with campden tablet.
My tap water is small town municipal water.
All had the same tart flavor with little discernable difference. For what it's worth, the campden treated water beer was a bit worse.

 

[cloudybrewer]

My two things to look into would be fermentation temperature. Mid sixties - wort temperature - as steady as possible during fermentation.

And extract twang.

I have a ferm chamber with controller set to one degree differential. I have used 68F and 64F. This last batch stayed between 63.4 and 65.0 the whole time using a thermowell mounted in the lid one inch from the bucket wall.

This flavor is too strong to be something some people taste and others don't. It isn't a semi-hidden flaw; it's the only thing I taste. To be fair, my home brew is the only homebrew I've ever had, so who knows, but it tastes nothing like a wheat beer.

 

[cloudybrewer]

Do you do a diacetyl rest?
I would put my money on that

And now I feel dumb. I never posted the original recipe.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=32811
It's homebrewer_99's Paulaner Hefewiezen.

And here are my exact ingredients.

1.
Hoptimus rex hallertau 2.7 percent
Malliard malts Belgian Munich Malt specialty malts
Fermenters Favorite Briess Bavarian Wheat DME
Muntons Extra Light DME
Wyeast 3068 or White Labs 300

 

[cloudybrewer]

One more question: when did you start using fermentation temperature control? If your first three batches were all fermented at ambient temperatures and only the most recent (infected) one was temp-controlled, it's possible the off-flavor was fermentation temperature related and the most recent, infected batch wouldn't have had that issue if it hadn't gotten infected. Also, when you control your fermentation temps, what temperature do you set the chamber to and how does your temperature controller measure the temperature (i.e. where is the probe)?

The first batch ( witbier kit with dry yeast) fermented in the basement in the dark at 67F ambient without any control at all.

The rest ( three attempts at the Paulaner clone) all fermented in the chamber.
First one - split batch in two buckets with different yeasts fermented at the same time. wyeast 3068 and 3056 at 70F with the probe insulated to the side of one bucket.
Second - wyeast 3068 ( made a one liter starter) at 68F with the probe insulated to the side of bucket.
Third ( infected) - white labs 300 ( one liter starter) at 64F with the probe in a stainless thermowell about one inch from the side of the bucket.

 

[cloudybrewer]

You might want to try a different style and get a kit and brew that and compare and see if you get the same tart flavor. You may not. It could be many things but it could just be bad or old extract. Don't give up, we are pulling for you. You can do this!

John

Thanks for the kind words. I'm too bull headed to quit now. I've spent too damn much money to not have even one bottle of enjoyable beer!

I actually have a nut brown ale kit on deck. I was thinking the same thing as you. Different type of extract, completely different yeast. It has mostly LME whereas I was using all DME. Now that my ferm chamber is free, I intend to get it made.

 

[cloudybrewer]

Here's a couple pics, if it works.

 

[madscientist451]

I'm somewhat skeptical that you have a sanitation problem, although it is possible.
Try a non-extract, all grain brew and see what happens. If you are short for time (like I am)
you can mash before bed, then boil the next morning (if you get a day off).
Once the mash is started, you don't have to do anything for an hour, so you can do other stuff around the house.
I'm thinking you just don't like the taste of extract beer.

 

[jdieter]

What are your gravity readings and how the heck do you measure 1/10th of an ounce?

 

[jcav]

Thanks for the kind words. I'm too bull headed to quit now. I've spent too damn much money to not have even one bottle of enjoyable beer!

I actually have a nut brown ale kit on deck. I was thinking the same thing as you. Different type of extract, completely different yeast. It has mostly LME whereas I was using all DME. Now that my ferm chamber is free, I intend to get it made.

Excellent, good luck I really hope this new batch turns out well for you!

John

 

[IslandLizard]

Where do you buy your extract? If it's old it can give you off flavors.

Starsan
Do you mix it at the recommended rate, 1 oz per 5 gallons of water?
How long do you submerge your items?
After items are cleaned with PBW, do you rinse them well before dunking into Starsan?

Your fermentor
Any deep scratches in it?
Do you clean it with PBW/Oxiclean/Washing Soda?
Do you rinse well before Starsan treatment. How do you apply the Starsan? How long does it sit before you fill your fermentor?

Those 2 pictures, your beer looks fine in the bucket, ready to drink. How does it taste, before bottling?

Bottling
Bottling bucket with spigot on bottom?
How do you clean that bucket and spigot? <== That spigot is a bug trap!
Do you take the bottle filler apart for a thorough clean and Starsan treatment?
How clean are your (racking) hoses and the piece of hose attaching your bottling wand?

Extract vs. All Grain
Some people simply don't like the taste of extract brews. I would do a small, say, 1 gallon all-grain batch, using a large pot to mash in (stick in warm turned off oven). I know it adds extra equipment and lots of new variables, but after the boil, it all follows the same route.

 

[cloudybrewer]

What are your gravity readings and how the heck do you measure 1/10th of an ounce?

The star San bottle has a measuring bulb on the top. I measured out a full ounce, dumped it in the water, then got just a touch more. One tenth was an estimate, but it was about 1/4th the way to the 1/2 ounce line, which would have been 12.5 percent of an ounce.

Gravity readings have all been roughly the same. OG of 1.050 to 1.053. Finishes from 1.010 to 1.012.
This last batch got a bit more DME, since I only had a little leftover and didn't want to throw it. So it's OG was 1.060 and finished at 1.013.

 

[Chanoc]

And now I feel dumb. I never posted the original recipe.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=32811
It's homebrewer_99's Paulaner Hefewiezen.

And here are my exact ingredients.

Sorry....
I was too drunk to think straight. I totally mixed two completely different flaws.
I was looking for acetaldehyde, which tates like Green Apples, would that be a more accurate description of your defect?
And there´s no Acetaldehyde rest.
I was looking for acetaldehyde, which tastes like Green Apple. Would that be a more accurate description of your defect?
Your pictures don´t look like they have an infection.
Hope this helps.

 

[eric19312]

Here's a couple pics, if it works.

This looks perfectly healthy. I'd drink the whole gravity sample out of that bucket.

I've read the thread and suspect you have issue with yeast. Your sanitation practices appear sound. And maybe poor quality extract. LME supposedly goes bad pretty fast, DME is supposedly more stable. I think most people find their beer gets better when they switch to all grain though I suspect a good part of this improvement is the fast early learning curve. But as you are working with extract do think about the freshness of the extract.

Back to the yeast. Sanitation and yeast are both about competition. I do what I can sanitizing everything that comes in contact with the beer but I chill in an open kettle in the garage with the garage door open on a windy day. When I bottle it is again in an open bucket. I have weldless ball valves on my brew kettle instead of sanitary welts with triclover fittings (oh how can this possibly produce clean beer!). My garage is full of lactobacillus because I crush my grain in there and my neighborhood is full of all kinds of airborne yeast and other bugs. I also have sour projects in my garage with lacto, pedio and brett cultures. My brewing environment is downright scary. So I accept that my wort is most likely contaminated when it goes into the fermentor and seek to outcompete the contaminants with a good healthy yeast pitch.

Easiest way to assure a big healthy yeast pitch is not making starters. Easiest way is dry yeast, properly rehydrated, and don't be stingy with it it is cheap. I like that you are trying nut brown ale. That should be easy to do with one of the available british dry yeast products. Pale ales are also easy and can be done with dry American or dry British yeast strains quite successfully.

Good luck and keep brewing.

 

[brewcat]

Here's a couple pics, if it works.

Looks like some yeast and left behind hop or grain. Looks normal. So I doubt any of your beers have been infected. It is something else. Here are my observations:

If anything, I think you're fermenting 3068 too low. I'd want it fermented higher, like 72. I'll also say you don't need a starter on this particular beer.

How have you been steeping the grains? Is that right that they are using munich as a steeping grain? I'd cut that out completely.

I'm also wondering if the IBUs are low. Is the kit not accounting for Hallertau AA%. At 2.7% I'm guessing the balance is off. I know this year on multiple recipes I've had to increase Hallertau.

On your next attempt at the Paulaner clone. Keep it simple. Smack Wyeast pack at least 3 hours before pitching. Pitch into wort simply made of LME and/or DME with hop addition at 60 minutes to finish IBU at 13. Ferment at 72. Check gravity 7-10 days into fermentation. If stable 3 days later, bottle.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Here's a couple pics, if it works.

That's kreusen not an infection.

 

[jabba11]

I agree that does not appear to be infection in those pics to me at all.

 

[cloudybrewer]

Where do you buy your extract? If it's old it can give you off flavors.
From Northern Brewer.
I usually Brew within two months of ordering, but usually have a pound or so of DME left over that gets used in the next batch. How old is too old, would you say?

Starsan
Do you mix it at the recommended rate, 1 oz per 5 gallons of water?
How long do you submerge your items?
After items are cleaned with PBW, do you rinse them well before dunking into Starsan?
yes, 1 ounce per five gallons, except this last time I used a touch more than an ounce. One batch per beer ( brewing and bottling) and then I get rid of it and make new again next time since I've been having problems. I make sure everything is submerged or sprayed and stays wet for at least five minutes.
Bigger items like the fermenter bucket and sprayed multiple times and stay wet for longer. And Yes, I rinse the hell out of stuff with hot water.

Your fermentor
Any deep scratches in it?
Do you clean it with PBW/Oxiclean/Washing Soda?
Do you rinse well before Starsan treatment. How do you apply the Starsan? How long does it sit before you fill your fermentor?
. First two batches used the same 5 gal buckets. Batch three was split in smaller 1.25 gal buckets. Batch four in a 7 gal bucket. All purchased new and never cleaned with anything abrasive.
fermenter preparation is the same as most other things - cleaned with PBW and rinse the hell out of it with hot water before Brew day. On Brew day, when the wort is close to pitching temps, I'll spray it with star San mixture until the whole inside is soaking wet and even the top couple inches of the outside. I'll continue to spray it to keep it all wet until the wort is ready. When I'm ready to transfer, I'll dump all the excess sanitizer out of the bucket into the sink, and transfer. It's had to sit for as much as a half hour, but never dry, same with the lid.


Those 2 pictures, your beer looks fine in the bucket, ready to drink. How does it taste, before bottling?

. The tart flavor is already there at bottling, always and doesn't condition out, even after as.kuch as six months.

Bottling
Bottling bucket with spigot on bottom?
How do you clean that bucket and spigot? <== That spigot is a bug trap!
Do you take the bottle filler apart for a thorough clean and Starsan treatment?
How clean are your (racking) hoses and the piece of hose attaching your bottling wand?

. This bucket gets the same regimen as the fermenter. The spigot and wand all come apart for cleaning and sanitization, I submerged them for ten minutes to a half hour,
depending on when I'm ready to get started. My hoses were new and get cleaned and submerged in sanitizer, too. They are nice perfectly clear and clean.

Extract vs. All Grain
Some people simply don't like the taste of extract brews. I would do a small, say, 1 gallon all-grain batch, using a large pot to mash in (stick in warm turned off oven). I know it adds extra equipment and lots of new variables, but after the boil, it all follows the same route.

this has been suggested by several people, so I do plan to try this. But I need to make up an extract kit the I already bought first. No sense in letting it get old.

.

 

[jimmykx250]

Nonsense. Ignore water-building, pH, and sparging for your first effort, and don't worry too much about exact mash temps or efficiency. Use a strike water calculator to estimate the strike temperature you need, or just go the easy route with a reasonable estimate (hard to go too wrong mashing into 7.5 gallons at 158F). Mush the grain a bit when you mash in to make sure there are no clumps, cover the kettle and wrap it in a sleeping bag, blanket, or winter jacket for an hour. Drain and squeeze it as well as you can (suspended over the kettle as you start your boil. Over an upturned colander in a bucket. Sitting in the bottom of a bucket that you drain off every few minutes, etc.). Boil, chill (or get a no-chill cube and try that method, hard to get an infection in a sealed container that was sterilized by five gallons of boiling wort), pitch, ferment, package, and drink. All the time, sanitize, sanitize, sanitize. Maybe buy some iodophor and use that instead of your Starsan - it's not as sexy but it actually kills more bugs.

BIAB brewing takes longer than an extract batch and it's a little more complicated, but there's no reason you couldn't give it a try right away. If the extract is part of your problem, it's possible a BIAB batch would clear it up nicely.

One more question: when did you start using fermentation temperature control? If your first three batches were all fermented at ambient temperatures and only the most recent (infected) one was temp-controlled, it's possible the off-flavor was fermentation temperature related and the most recent, infected batch wouldn't have had that issue if it hadn't gotten infected. Also, when you control your fermentation temps, what temperature do you set the chamber to and how does your temperature controller measure the temperature (i.e. where is the probe)? If you're using kit instructions, they might also suggest temps that are way too high (my first brew said to use S-04 at 24C, which was a decidedly bad idea), and even if you're trying to ferment at proper temps, your beer might actually be fermenting much warmer than intended depending on how you control the temperature. Just a couple thoughts.

This guy is on point!!!!

 

[cloudybrewer]

Sorry....
I was too drunk to think straight. I totally mixed two completely different flaws.
I was looking for acetaldehyde, which tates like Green Apples, would that be a more accurate description of your defect?
And there´s no Acetaldehyde rest.

You could maybe say that, but it isn't exact. I've been through the lists of common off flavors and their causes many times, and I just can't nail down a good description. But then, my wife says I have a caveman palate. My descriptions of food rarely exceed good or not good.