Hoegaarden Verboden Vruchten

[Remos112]

Hello everybody first of all, I have reading this and several other forums quite a while, but hands out this is the best I have come across so far so I decided to join you.

I am a big fan of Hoegaardens verboden vruchten (forbidden fruits) and in my search to make a clone I came across this recipe:
Brewcraft Belgian Ale
1.5 kg liquid pale malt
250 grams dry wheat malt
500 grams English crystal malt, steeped for 30 mins, sparged and liquid then boiled
250 grams Golden Syrup
250 grams coffee sugar crystals
30 grams coriander seed
Rind from two mandarines (if you can't find any, use pink grapefruit, around one-2 tablespoons rind)
Liquid Wyeast Forbidden Fruit yeast (otherwise, use Belgian ale yeast or the abbey ale)

As I am living in The Netherlands I had to improvise a t bit ingredient-wise, also I cut back on the koriander, 30 gram seems like ALOT so I've used 12 grams instead thinking I could always add more in a later brew rather then destroying the first with too much. Also I added 45 grams of manderin peel instead of rind from 2.

I fermented it for 3 weeks and then bottled it, not without a taste test first offcourse, and I must say I am blown away! although it tastes very "young"
It has so mucht potential! Instant favourite!

However with the original "verboden vruchten" in mind. I think it has hints of cocao and vanilla as well mixed in the taste pallete.

I am planning of doing a 2nd batch within a month and I would like to add some cocoa and vannilla taste too it to match the original even more.

Anyone have an opion on this? And also any suggestions of how many grams, of beans etc. to add would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance!
Remi

 

[IslandLizard]

Welcome to the world's best brew forum!

I have a few notes and questions:

I've never tasted "Verboden Vruchten," do you think your brew is a good clone?
It looks like the 500gr of crystal malt will leave a lot of residual sweetness, is that what the original beer has too?

What Lovibond or EBC value does that crystal malt have? Who is the maltster?

What are "coffee sugar crystals?" Is that raw cane sugar? Or something that tastes like coffee?

You are right, 30 grams is a lot of Coriander. 7 grams is subtle, 14 grams very detectable.

When using citrus peel we usually only want the outer colored skin, about 1-2 millimeter (~1/16") deep, leaving the bitter white pith out. Mandarines/Tangerines peel/rind is not as thick and bitter, containing less pith, they're probably OK whole, as is.

1 Vanilla bean sliced in half lengthwise, scraped and cut into somewhat smaller sections, then everything soaked in an ounce or 2 of vodka (Jenever) in a small jar for 2 weeks should be plenty, perhaps too much already. You'd add the contents of the whole jar, vodka and all, after the primary fermentation has finished. I would start with adding half of it, and taste after a few days then add more if needed or desired.

Don't know anything about how much cocoa would be needed. We usually add raw cocoa "nibs" that have been toasted then crushed coarsely. The nibs don't contain much fat, and won't kill the head.

 

[porterpounder]

One of the best way to add cocoa/vanilla flavor is to make a tincture with one vanilla bean (split and seed scraped) and 2 oz of cocoa nibs in 250 ml of vodka. Shake it every day for 2 weeks for a few seconds and strain into a clean container. Add how ever much you want at packaging to get the depth of flavor you are looking for.

 

[Remos112]

Goodness! thanx for the replies!
@islandlizard:
I've never tasted "Verboden Vruchten," do you think your brew is a good clone?
I think it comes pretty close, except for the chocolate and vinilla though, also it is very bitter, but I think this is due to high alcohol and the flavour not mellowed out quite yet (had the same with brewferm grand cru)

As for the malt I substituted it for 500 gram Thomas fawcet crystal malt and it is 150 EBC ( have no idea what any of that means though since I am a newby) the original is not very sweet, nor is this brew so far..

As for coffee sugars, I have no idea, i googled iand it was not available in The Netherlands, so I substituded it for dark candy sugar as I read it is used in Belgian ales quite often.

As for the peel I knew that much, try to keep the colored bit as much as possible but for a manderin there hardly is any white as you mentioned, I used lemon peel in a wit (wheat) currently in primary, and the lemon I peeled super shallow with speed peeler.

about the coriander, I am quite pleased with how it is, it is there, yet not overpowering, perfect for my likings! I used the same amount for the wit as well. (tastenotes on that sunday)

As for the vanilla and cocoa thanks that is something I can work with

 

[Remos112]

One of the best way to add cocoa/vanilla flavor is to make a tincture with one vanilla bean (split and seed scraped) and 2 oz of cocoa nibs in 250 ml of vodka. Shake it every day for 2 weeks for a few seconds and strain into a clean container. Add how ever much you want at packaging to get the depth of flavor you are looking for.

Much thanks for your addition as well, Looks like I will be needing a bottle of wodka, or jenever.

 

[IslandLizard]

Much thanks for your addition as well, Looks like I will be needing a bottle of wodka, or jenever.

Yes, forgot to say, those coarsely crushed cocoa nibs (~3mm chunks) should be soaked in the jenever as well. Any jenever will be fine, cheap and cheerful. I used to get Lechner's back in the days. Great for mixers and even straight up from the freezer pretty good stuff. A bit more affordable than Bokma, Bols, or Claeryn. And it had some flavor.

Speaking of jenever, we get some really odd brands here I'd never heard of, sold as Dutch vodka, like Ketel One, Vox, van Gogh (yeah!). Never seen Bokma here. Of all, I do miss oude jenever though, never seen it here either.

 

[Remos112]

I will be ordering some cocoa nibs and vanilla beans soon, also I will look for cheap Jenever, since I am not a big jenever fan.

Funny to hear about those "Dutch Wodka" brands! Did you live in the Netherlands in the past? Or just a fan of Dutch Jenevers?

Yes, forgot to say, those coarsely crushed cocoa nibs (~3mm chunks) should be soaked in the jenever as well. Any jenever will be fine, cheap and cheerful. I used to get Lechner's back in the days. Great for mixers and even straight up from the freezer pretty good stuff. A bit more affordable than Bokma, Bols, or Claeryn. And it had some flavor.

Speaking of jenever, we get some really odd brands here I'd never heard of, sold as Dutch vodka, like Ketel One, Vox, van Gogh (yeah!). Never seen Bokma here. Of all, I do miss oude jenever though, never seen it here either.

 

[IslandLizard]

I will be ordering some cocoa nibs and vanilla beans soon, also I will look for cheap Jenever, since I am not a big jenever fan.

Funny to hear about those "Dutch Wodka" brands! Did you live in the Netherlands in the past? Or just a fan of Dutch Jenevers?

Yup, those Jenever brands are a hoot here! But only a Dutchman would know. That French vodka, Grey Goose, gets aggressively marketed here. French Vodka? Come on!

The initial idea for Grey Goose was to develop a luxury vodka for the American marketplace...

So there you go! Nuf sed!

I love jenever! Also Beerenburg and BeJo's (Beerenburg/Jonge Jenever mix). I've never been able to find Beerenburg here in the US. Jagermeister is sort of popular, but I don't think anyone really appreciates it, since most people don't like licorice ("drop") here. It's more of a gimmick with the chiller/dispenser and all. I think Jagermeister pales compared to the complexity of Boomsma's Beerenburg.

Yes, I'm originally Dutch, moved to the US when I was 30. Haven't been back the past 27 years. Maybe it's time to revisit.

 

[Remos112]

Yup, those Jenever brands are a hoot here! But only a Dutchman would know. That French vodka, Grey Goose, gets aggressively marketed here. French Vodka? Come on!



So there you go! Nuf sed!

I love jenever! Also Beerenburg and BeJo's (Beerenburg/Jonge Jenever mix). I've never been able to find Beerenburg here in the US. Jagermeister is sort of popular, but I don't think anyone really appreciates it, since most people don't like licorice ("drop") here. It's more of a gimmick with the chiller/dispenser and all. I think Jagermeister pales compared to the complexity of Boomsma's Beerenburg.

Yes, I'm originally Dutch, moved to the US when I was 30. Haven't been back the past 27 years. Maybe it's time to revisit.

I happen to like Jaegermeister, but boy is it a silent killer. 1 glas 2 glasses 3 I feel pretty good why not one more? all seems well until you stand up to go to the toilet or something, then everything starts to spin lol. When you do decide to come viste, come to apeldoorn for a verboden vruchten clone

 

[porterpounder]

Much thanks for your addition as well, Looks like I will be needing a bottle of wodka, or jenever.

No problem. Also a fan of good jenever. My mother is originally from Lisse. I've been to visit a few times bouncing back and forth to Belgium and love every minute. Good luck.

 

[Remos112]

Ok guys I did a taste testing today side by side with the real "verboden vruchten" and I was so blown away by it I want to share te recipe with you:
1 can of Coopers Australian ale (couldn't find any brand with belgian ale)
1 can Brewferm liquid malt extract wheat 1.5 kg unhopped
500 grams of Thomas Fawcet crystal malt
250 grams of golden syrup
250 grams of brown candy sugar
12 grams of coriander seeds grinded
45 grams of manderin peel (just the colored part)
2 smack packs of Wyeast Forbidden Fruits liquid yeast

My method:
Smacked the wyeast 23 hours prior of brewing (will be using a starter next time)
Steeped 500 grams of the crystal malt in 70" celsius of water for half an hour, then boiled the liquid for a short while, then added manderin peels and coriander for the last 5 minutes, then added the rest of the ingredients and stirred it all. then added water op to the 20 L mark and then added the smackpacks wyeast.

og about 1075, it fermented very very slowly, but I left it in primary for 3 weeks, it was stuck at 1020 at that time, then syphon-ed it to the bottling bucket, added 170 grams of dextrose. And kept it at room temperature for 2 weeks. Then tasted it, more on that in the next post/

 

[Remos112]

So after two weeks I compared the beer together with my father, and we both concluded it is very very similar, biggest diffrences thoug, the hoegaarden was a bit more bitter, while my brew was more fruity, but that may also be because it is quite young I guess? Not so sure now whether or not to add any cocoa and vinalla. Will adding a small amount of cocoa make it slightly more bitter as well? If that's the case it might just be what it needs to make it great instead of very good. Or would you advise letting it mature a bit more before changing the recipe?
All input is very much appreciated!
PS left is the original, right my brew

 

[Remos112]

Also can someone give me a good guideline for a yeast starter on this beer?
og is 1075 and batch size is 5 gallons. I keep reading conflicting things so any advice would be very welcome. I will be using 1 smack pack of wyeast forbidden fruits