Greetings from Berlin, Germany

[JohnnyHa]

Hello to all from busy Berlin, Germany!

I have occasionally looked into this forum from time to time (and got some inspirations from it), and have finally decided to register. Whilst it is currently not very likely that I will post much, I thought it was polite at least to write an introduction.

I have been brewing since early 2013 (only all-grain and bottles, no kits or kegs). I'm German and also based in Germany (thus I mainly post on hobbybrauer.de) but I also lived in the UK for twelve years and have relatives in the US so I have some good links to English-speaking countries.

My favourite beers are simple bottom-fermented lagers (a second fridge for 50€ together with a UT-200 thermostat to enable controlled fermentation was probably one of the best investments in my homebrewing "career"), and I'm also a great fan of brewing by means of traditional decoction mashing.

I'm not sure if I find the time to write a lot here as I'm quite busy with my activities and posting in Germany but I hope to have a look in here from time to time as well.

All the best to all and happy brewing!

PS: If somebody comes over to Berlin (or Germany in general) I can perhaps offer some advice on where to best sample interesting beers, and perhaps also which places to avoid. That certainly applies to Berlin but I'm getting about a bit and have visited quite a few places elsewhere in Germany as well.

 

[Sadu]

Wie gehts.

I lived in Berlin for a most wonderful 2 months, followed by 4 months in Mannheim. I think that if anyone visits Berlin and is not able to find a good beer they are doing something wrong

Not only is the beer fantastic, it's also cheap, and everything comes in half-litre bottles, and proper glassware. I came home after 6 months in Germany and beer has never been the same, or as good since.

I got into homebrewing largely so I can learn to brew a good hefeweizen, dunkelweizen and German lager since these styles are not readily available or fresh where I live.

Even the kids drinks are awesome in Germany.

 

[JohnnyHa]

When was it you were over here, Sadu? The beer scene in Berlin has been quite vibrant over the last three years or so. In fact, over the last year I lost track a little over what is happening with lots of new brewers starting, craft beer bars opening etc.

The rest of Germany isn't as vibrant but things have started to move towards new beer styles elsewhere also.

I was in the US (we travelled down the West Coast from Portland to LA) for three weeks in the summer of 2014, and I was very impressed with the variety and the perceptible endeavour to try out lots of new things in brewing. It was an amazing trip, and we were lucky enough to have our best Berliner Weisse ever (at that point in time) right in the centre of Portland! We were also lucky enough to do tours at Anchor Brewing and Firestone Walker, with particular the first one being an absolute highlight of the trip.

That said, after a lot of experimentation I have come to realise how good the traditional German beer styles (lager beers and Weizen in particular) can be if brewed properly. Amongst German homebrewers, they're not necessarily as fanciful though.

 

[bruhaha]

Welcome to HBT! Instead of offering you brewing advice, we may be asking tips from you instead!!

I am a German beer lover and my favorite place I have been to drink and eat was the Hofbrauhaus. That is a heck of a place for sure!

I focus on German Pils, Helles, Hefes and Gose styles. Keep checking in from time to time to say hello from Germany!

 

[JohnnyHa]

I'll try my best. I have successfully brewed quite a few decoction-mashed lager beers so I consider that beer style a kind of personal love child of mine.

Hefeweizen I tried once early in my homebrewing career, and that's been the only batch so far that went wrong (got infected) but it's next on the list.

Munich is not a place I get to very often but I like it. I have been fortunate enough to take part in a couple of very interesting seminars on brewing at Doemens Academy (very knowledgeable people there ).

Best regards, JohnnyHa

 

[ncbrewer]

The beer scene in Berlin has been quite vibrant over the last three years or so. In fact, over the last year I lost track a little over what is happening with lots of new brewers starting, craft beer bars opening etc.

I was in Germany in 1996, and it seemed to me that all the beer was craft beer. What's different about the beer now?

And welcome to HBT.

 

[JohnnyHa]

I was in Germany in 1996, and it seemed to me that all the beer was craft beer. What's different about the beer now?

And welcome to HBT.

Thank you for the welcome.

I guess it depends where you were in 1996 to consider all the beer you had as craft beer. Some regions in Bavaria / Franconia still have a stunning number of small breweries with great variety. Elsewhere though, there has been a lot of consolidation, and middle-sized breweries are still going out of business. Also, the larger breweries have embarked on a price war, and that is certainly detrimental to variety. They are focusing too much on compromise and finding the middle ground, and as a consequence the high volume Pilsner beers have become boring and almost indistinguishable (if you carry out a blind test it's very difficult to identify what's in front of you even if you know it's one of, say, five bottles that you have in front of you as well) .

Over the last three or four years there's been a kind of new trend, and you can find much more IPAs, Pale Ales, Stouts etc, and also extinct or almost extinct beer styles such as Berliner Weiße are gradually making a comeback.

 

[Cyclman]

Welcome to the group, from Colorado

We are lucky here to have Prost brewing: https://prostbrewing.com/ they brew on an authentic, antique German brew system.

I have a Czech pils lagering right now, am about to brew a Doppelbock for the winter, and will do a Maibock for spring. More equipment, much more work (I do 2-3 decoctions on lagers), but I think they're some of my best beers.

Y'all are lucky to have Stone opening in Berlin, they are incredible: http://www.stonebrewing.eu/ If that brewpub is as good as the one in San Diego, you can't miss it.

Prost!

 

[JohnnyHa]

Thank you for the welcome, and great choice of beer styles! If I had to choose one beer style (and only one) to take to eternity with me, it would be Czech Lagers beers

It's definitely good to have Stone here. I believe they have adapted their recipes and beers a little in order to be more appealing to German palates. In short, I think their beers here are a little less aggressive than the ones in the US but I have not been there very often as yet - they're not officially open yet and it's also quite far from where I live. I must admit I'm not necessarily a fan of the aggressive Stone beers but I'm nonetheless very happy that they are here and do their bit in widening perspectives.

Prost looks interesting! Never heard of them before!

 

[Sadu]

When was it you were over here, Sadu? The beer scene in Berlin has been quite vibrant over the last three years or so. In fact, over the last year I lost track a little over what is happening with lots of new brewers starting, craft beer bars opening etc.

The rest of Germany isn't as vibrant but things have started to move towards new beer styles elsewhere also.

I was in the US (we travelled down the West Coast from Portland to LA) for three weeks in the summer of 2014, and I was very impressed with the variety and the perceptible endeavour to try out lots of new things in brewing. It was an amazing trip, and we were lucky enough to have our best Berliner Weisse ever (at that point in time) right in the centre of Portland! We were also lucky enough to do tours at Anchor Brewing and Firestone Walker, with particular the first one being an absolute highlight of the trip.

That said, after a lot of experimentation I have come to realise how good the traditional German beer styles (lager beers and Weizen in particular) can be if brewed properly. Amongst German homebrewers, they're not necessarily as fanciful though.

I was there in 2009. At that time I didn't really know about craft beer. My friends and I would all talk crap about which mass-market lager was best, yet beer was really just a means towards getting drunk cheaply.
Germany changed all that. Great beer everywhere, but their lagers aren't all generic like I was used to. And the hefes / Dunkels blew me away.

So I get back to New Zealand and realise that what we call beer is pretty average - no real flavour etc. And this is what got me into home brewing. Now days we have craft beer here and it's pretty great, but a bit pricey for the peasant class. I'm hoping I can make my own German lagers and hefes to an acceptable standard, plus a few nice porters and IPAs and other stuff in between.

 

[JohnnyHa]

I think there is something about our European barley and Pilsner Malt that seems to be different, certainly compared to the US. I noticed in the US that the light lager beers (especially the Bohemian Pilsners were all very disappointing) seemed to lack something in terms of malt flavour, and a brewmaster in Portland, OR with extensive experience of Germany and German beer confirmed this to us. Not sure about what you are breeding and getting in NZ.

As for brewing lagers, go for it!

The most important factor for brewing lager beers to a good standard IMHO is the condition and amount of yeast, and, of course, strict temperature control during fermentation. Harvesting yeast really pays off here, as the yeast gets fitter and better-adapted with re-use (initially the yeast does not cope too well with low temperatures). Decoction mashing then can add the finishing touches and turn a beer from very good to really excellent. Sometimes I make very simple lager beers, consisting of not more than 100% base malt, a double decoction, a couple of hop additions and a befitting yeast, and these beers usually turn out very nicely indeed.

Hefes I haven't got such a firm grip on but here the choice of yeast (there are a few favourite yeasts that homebrewers in Germany harvest from bottles, such as Schneider or Gutmann) and fermentation conditions are also very important. And mashing (ferula acid rest at around 45°C) if you like clove.

 

[Sadu]

Yes I try to give my lagers a very good pitch of healthy yeast. I have been fermenting to the Brulosophy method where the temperature gets raised once 50% attenuation is reached.

Tell me more about how you do the decoction mashing, please.

I did my first decoction mash on a 1 gallon Munich helles 2 weeks ago. I added the grain at 50c for 20 mins, then pulled a decoction to raise to 64c for 45 mins then again to raise to mash-out temperature. This was quite easy on a 1 gallon batch, everything can be done in a small pot on a second stovetop burner. I imagine it would be more difficult with a larger batch. My efficiency was 10% less than what I would normally get, but that isn't really a problem (extra 40c worth of malt next time).

Unfortunately I put too much sourmalz in the beer and all I can taste is sourness so far. I will have to try again.

I am trying to find a mashing balance that imparts some genuine German lager characteristics from the mash, but that doesn't take 3.5 hours to do the mash. I haven't tried melanoidin malt yet.

I would be very interested to hear what decoction mash methods work for you.

 

[unionrdr]

Howdy! You picked the best place over here for current brewing ideas & Such. Besides wine & mead making, foodie stuff & tinkering. My dad's side is from Upper Bavaria. The wall ran through the middle of the city Johan Peter & his grandfather Kroeger were from. They sailed for America in 1728 & 1734. Still looking on Ancestry.com for them & any beers they might've brewed? Part of the fun for me.
I also like tinkering with German beers, partial mash style. Well, mostly mash in my case. I love German malts, as to me, they have a toasted fine artisan bread sort of flavor to them. So far, I've brewed Dampfbier, & we have a thread buried here somewhere for the east-German Kottbusser some of us enjoyed brewing. I also have a 6 gallon batch of Mumme carbonating & conditioning in bottles now. The recipe is for a popular English version dating back to 1695. It's definitely one interesting gruit ale that will be perfect for fall & the holidays as we enjoy them over here. And I've been experimenting with a Premium American lager by the old German/Bavarian brewers that were brewing in Cleveland, Ohio's Ohio City back in the 20th century, up to the mid-1960's. The way the styles were from about 1950-1965 for me & my exbeeraments. I still remember that flavor. Looking forward to some rousing discussions with you & the 2nd family we've developed here. Prost!

 

[JohnnyHa]

@sadu:
The temperature raise at 50% attenuation sounds good! That is also often recommended here.

Your protein rest at 50°C is perhaps a little too long. These days, modern malts are well-modified and no longer in need of extended protein rests. A too long protein rest can be detrimental to head stability, and this can be a problem if the rest of your mash sits at 50°C whilst you are doing your first decoction. I know of at least one example where the fellow brewer ended up with a really nice Bohemian Pilsner but no foam on top of it!

I usually employ two different decoction methods (no particular preference but they both circumvent the extended protein rest):

Method 1:
Mash in at ~55°C, rest for 10 minutes at 50°C
add boiling water to get to 63°C (you need to mash in a bit thicker, i.e. initially hold some of your water back to add it at this point)
rest for 30 minutes
draw off first decoction (1/3 as thick mash) [heat that to ~70°C, rest until all starch is converted, then heat to boiling and boil for 20 minutes]
put the thick mash back -> temperature goes to ~72°C
rest for 30 minutes
draw off second decoction (1/3 as thin mash) [heat to boiling and boil for 20 minutes]
put the thin mash back -> temperature goes to ~78°C
mash out at 78°C

Method 2:
Mash in at ~40°C (target temperature around 37°C)
Rest for ten minutes
Draw off first decoction (50% of your total, as thick as possible), [heat that to ~70°C, hold until all the starch is converted, heat to boil, boil for twenty minutes]
Put the thick mash back into your mash tun (should result in about 65°C)
Hold for 30 minutes
Draw off 2nd decoction (1/3 as thin mash) [heat that to boil, and boil for 20 minutes]
Put thin mash back (should result in about 75°C)
Mash out

The first method is one of the "classic" methods I believe, the second one is an abbreviated classic method which leaves out a largely unnecessary protein rest at 50°C.

There is an excellent article on decoction brewing here:
Verkocht und zugebrührt
Unfortunately the article is in German but you may get the gist with the use of Google Translater. The article also contains a link to a very useful spreadsheet (about halfway down) that makes the calculations really easy. You need to work with your equipment a little to get the ratios right.

How much sourmalt did you use? I use sourmalt only to adjust the alkalinity (with my water here I usually use ca. 2%).

Melanoidin tastes different to a decoction I think. The former imparts a bread crust aroma (difficult to describe) I think, and it's also easily overdosed.

Decoction mashing is a bit more time-consuming, that's true. I still do it but I know others who refrain from it for that precise reason.

 

[JohnnyHa]

@unionrdr:
Your experiments regarding Mumme and Kottbusser sound absolutely fascinating! I'm probably out of my depth quickly when it comes to historical beer styles but I certainly like to try (i.e. drink) them, and I'm also a big fan of Ron Pattinson who has unearthed a wealth of knowledge regarding historical British beer styles but also knows a lot about continental styles.

We're lucky enough in Berlin as far as Berliner Weiße is finally making a comeback with some fine examples having entered the market over the last couple of years, and I also have a very nice homebrew recipe in my files somewhere but I haven't been down that particular road yet. We also had a "sour beer summit" in Berlin earlier this year, and it's been one of the most fascinating beer events I have been to. I can also say that two years ago, I had my best Berliner Weiße ever (at the time) in the US (in Portland), and I also drank my first Adam beer in the US (also in Portland). I have never had a Mumme or a Kottbusser so I shall try and dig that thread out (edit: found it, fascinating read!)!

When we did a tour at Anchor Steam in San Francisco two years ago we spotted a lot of old brewery signs in their bar from god knows when with many of them clearly showing German ancestry and names. I guess most of them have been forgotten long since but it would be fascinating to unearth some of their recipes, and they are perhaps similar to the beers you have brewed.

My relatives in the US are also quite keen on ancestry, and I have promised them to look into this a bit more and contribute to the large family tree they are building. About time I'm getting on with this!