My Super Efficient 5-Gallon Mash Lauter Tun

TerapinChef said:

Any update on the Harford Loop use? Does it work? I'm interested...I bet you could even get it to the point where you know where to set it just by the amount of grains in your grain bill...I can see my bracket marked now..."Porter" "Birthday Stout" "Hobgoblin"...

Click to expand...

I haven't had a chance to try it yet (another big project is kickin' my ass) but I plan to within the next few weeks. The one comment which was raised earlier which has given me pause is the question regarding back pressure from the grain bed. Especially with my very tall grain bed this is a valid concern and I'm not sure how badly it will effect the hartford loop. Here is a picture of the hartford loop from my skimmer just for illustrative purposes in case my awesome SketchUp drawing isn't very clear.

Hartford Loop from a Reef Aquarium Skimmer

TerapinChef said:

Are you sure that you would want to put a ball valve on the output topside? Wouldn't the flow just be regulated by the Hartford Loop anyways? I feel if anything it should be on the bottom T leading to the H.L. so that you can close that open part of your system at the top, enabling a good siphon for when you are draining after sparging.

Click to expand...

I am trying to figure out why I put a valve up there...

...I guess you're right. No need for that one.

I think that the ball valve at the top of the first tee would still be a good idea though. I'm not an expert in fluid dynamics or anything but I feel like you need that top part closed before you can siphon from the bottom effectively.

OP, what size nipple did you to connect your plastic tube and still have it underneath your manifold? I just happened to have a 10 gallon version of that cooler in my storage closet and I'm trying to convert it, however the spigot hole on mine must be drilled a little higher, I can't get my manifold to sit down flat.

it looks like there is a divete in the bottom of the square cooler where the drainage tube lies, so that the copper tubing can lay snugg to the bottom.

ChemE said:

I plan on adding a Hartford Loop. These are commonly used in saltwater aquarium skimmers to maintain a constant water level in a vessel despite flow going both in and out. I tried to make how these work clear with notes on the SketchUp model but let me know if anyone has any questions. I really can't believe no one seems to use these for fly sparging. Once the height of the tee is set, that's it. There is no possibility of the fluid level changing.

Click to expand...

How will you Vourlauf without opening the top of the cooler and pouring it in? I only batch so I'm just curious how you fly guys do that. Just tossing the vourlauf would go against the max eff esthetic.

Jersh said:

OP, what size nipple did you to connect your plastic tube and still have it underneath your manifold? I just happened to have a 10 gallon version of that cooler in my storage closet and I'm trying to convert it, however the spigot hole on mine must be drilled a little higher, I can't get my manifold to sit down flat.

Click to expand...

Both nipples underneath the manifold are 3/8" barb fittings. They fit perfectly in the space; 1/2" wouldn't fit though.

eschatz said:

How will you Vourlauf without opening the top of the cooler and pouring it in? I only batch so I'm just curious how you fly guys do that. Just tossing the vourlauf would go against the max eff esthetic.

Click to expand...

The lid is cracked for vorlauf but that's it. So what, ten seconds or so. If that much really bugged you, you could always dump it in the HLT or set up a valve above the MLT to receive the vorlauf.

TerapinChef said:

I think that the ball valve at the top of the first tee would still be a good idea though. I'm not an expert in fluid dynamics or anything but I feel like you need that top part closed before you can siphon from the bottom effectively.

Click to expand...

At first I thought you might be right. After thinking about it for a few minutes (on the throne ) I can't figure out how siphoning would be affected by an open valve at the top.

Wouldn't there always be positive pressure comming out of the bottom valve thus preventing the issue of this? I honestly am not sure so if someone could elaborate on their reply to this, that would be great.

I run off into a gallon jug and pour it back into the top one jug at a time while it flows continually until I've returned (vorlauf) about 4 gallons usually. I go by clarity, which is easy to see in lighter beers.

I just built one of these using a 10 gallon version the same coleman cooler. I found it on ebay for $40 shipped and built the manifold and spigot for another $15. I used cpvc instead of copper just to save some money. I just used it for the first time yesterday and it worked great. After preheating it it only lost about .7 of a degree over the hour mash. I am very pleased with it.

I have a similar setup 10 gal round rubber maid cooler with ss false bottom and homemade sparge ring, as I didn’t want to let any heat out.
But my sparge ring the holes are drilled on the top side as I thought that this would give an more even distribution of hot liquor during fly sparging
I thought as water was a very low pressure or at a trickle, it would only really flow from the first few holes
Turning up side down however I thought would allow a small amount of pressure to build and give a more even flow out off the holes
Don’t know if there is any truth to this but it seems to work well
Will post pics if anyone interested.

ChemE said:

I haven't had a chance to try it yet (another big project is kickin' my ass) but I plan to within the next few weeks. The one comment which was raised earlier which has given me pause is the question regarding back pressure from the grain bed. Especially with my very tall grain bed this is a valid concern and I'm not sure how badly it will effect the hartford loop. Here is a picture of the hartford loop from my skimmer just for illustrative purposes in case my awesome SketchUp drawing isn't very clear.

Hartford Loop from a Reef Aquarium Skimmer

Click to expand...

Didn't Austin Powers have one of these in his luggage when he went through customs? or something like that?

dontman said:

Didn't Austin Powers have one of these in his luggage when he went through customs? or something like that?

Click to expand...

I wouldn't know. It's not my bag baby.

I read all the posts about adding a Hartford loop on the mash tun and I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents on the topic. It's been a long time since I took Hydraulics class, but I think that there may be a much simpler method. Simply by raising the level of the output tube up to the same level that you want to maintain in mash tun, then you will insure water level will never go lower. Then as you are finishing the sparge, then you could gradually lower the height of the tube until it is below the bottom of the mash tun and you've completely drained it.

Unfortunately neither method (Hartford loop or raising the output tube) will tell you the actual water level inside the mash tun during sparging, but they will guarantee that mash doesn't run dry. If the sparge is stuck or runs real slow, you will run the risk over filling the mash tun, but you should notice this and slow water intake.

If you are just looking for a method to watch the water level inside the mash tun then I would find another method that is independent of pushing water through the grain. Like by drilling a hole in the side and installing a elbow and tube that runs up the side of the mash tun. As the water level rises inside, so will the water in the tube. This may be a pain to clean.

Lastly I'd like to thank ChemE for his design and taking the time to take pics and I'd also like to thank jjp36 for the ebay tip. I just bought the same cooler! The ebay guy must have bought a lot of them.

IwanaBrich said:

I read all the posts about adding a Hartford loop on the mash tun and I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents on the topic. It's been a long time since I took Hydraulics class, but I think that there may be a much simpler method.

If you are just looking for a method to watch the water level inside the mash tun then I would find another method that is independent of pushing water through the grain. Like by drilling a hole in the side and installing a elbow and tube that runs up the side of the mash tun. As the water level rises inside, so will the water in the tube. This may be a pain to clean.

Click to expand...

To revive this thread, I would mention one change that I made. Instead of a Hartford loop, you can simply use a manometer technique if you're only interested in seeing the fluid level inside.

Put a "Tee" in between the tub and the ball valve and connect a clear hose of any diameter to it. Then run the hose up THE FULL LENGTH of the cooler (all the way to the top). Set up this way, the tube should always be full of fluid...full to the exact height of the fluid inside the cooler. This should work for either bach or continuous processes.

When you first fill the tun, note the level in the tube. This will give you an idea of where you want the fluid level to be for any particular grain bed.

From another ChemE, great job ChemE!

IwanaBrich said:

...Lastly I'd like to thank ChemE for his design and taking the time to take pics...

Click to expand...

My pleasure and I'm glad you found it useful.

goatchze said:

...From another ChemE, great job ChemE!

Click to expand...

Woot! Overpaid plumbers unite! Thanks goatchze.

goatchze said:

To revive this thread, I would mention one change that I made. Instead of a Hartford loop, you can simply use a manometer technique if you're only interested in seeing the fluid level inside.

Put a "Tee" in between the tub and the ball valve and connect a clear hose of any diameter to it. Then run the hose up THE FULL LENGTH of the cooler (all the way to the top). Set up this way, the tube should always be full of fluid...full to the exact height of the fluid inside the cooler. This should work for either bach or continuous processes.

When you first fill the tun, note the level in the tube. This will give you an idea of where you want the fluid level to be for any particular grain bed.

From another ChemE, great job ChemE!

Click to expand...

The vacuum from the liquid draining out will change the reading slightly, but not too much, and it would def. be close enough that you could figure out the relationship between the two levels.

I would also do this because of concerns of the loop changing pressures in the tank and not flowing well or something.

It seems to me that a float or laser indicator, something like what's used in marine holding tanks, would be more reliable.

Hey ChemE - thanks for this design & the post. I tried to emulate your MLT design and it worked out fairly well, considering it was my first DYI MLT for my first AG brew.

I had trouble with the front pipe hitting the valve stem - probably because I used 1/2" throughout. From the looks of your photos, you must have used 3/8" valve & fittings. Is that correct?

Because of that, my manifold lifted off a bit from the base, and I leave about 1.25 Cups in the cooler. Not horrible I guess. I tried to compensate for the obstruction:





Next up to modify the sparge assembly and fix that front pipe issue.

I just read about a device called a "wier" (spelling may be wrong). Think of it like a site glass, but every couple of inches along it's height it has a T and that T leads to a valve, which then goes into another T on a similar vertical tube that looks like the first. Essentially it is a ladder shape with a valve at every cross-bar.

You can control the fluid level in the tun by selecting the appropriate valve to open, setting the maximum at that point, then you sparge onto the bed. The ladder shape (wier) is filled from below the false bottom and is essentially your outflow.

On a full scale craft brew system it looks very cool (replaces having a grant), but in a cooler it may be that it's difficult to build given the limits of plumbing sizes.

wedward said:

Hey ChemE - thanks for this design & the post. I tried to emulate your MLT design and it worked out fairly well, considering it was my first DYI MLT for my first AG brew.

I had trouble with the front pipe hitting the valve stem - probably because I used 1/2" throughout. From the looks of your photos, you must have used 3/8" valve & fittings. Is that correct?

Because of that, my manifold lifted off a bit from the base, and I leave about 1.25 Cups in the cooler. Not horrible I guess. I tried to compensate for the obstruction:

Next up to modify the sparge assembly and fix that front pipe issue.

Click to expand...

Yeah, sorry I've been slacking on the parts list but I did use 3/8" rather than 1/2" . Other than a tighter spacing on the slots (kudos to your patience my friend) that looks like a perfect knockoff of mine!

I've been wanting to update this thread for a while but an excessive work schedule and a way too long honey do list has been keeping me from brewing. I just did an ESB yesterday with a target OG of 1.050 from 8# of grain. I wanted to be sure that this design could run off in a reasonable time given the depth of the grain bed and the last batch (an oatmeal stout) took 3.5 hours to run off. The ESB ran off in 1 hour no problem and actually I had to slow it down after 20 minutes so that it took an hour. It also held the 159°F mash for 45 minutes without dropping a degree.

TommyBoy44060 said:

I only have a parts list put together...

Click to expand...

Did this ever happen? Or anything close to it? I'm going to be looking to design a new MLT soon and was wondering if there was ever anything to say about it...

I never did it though in light of my last oatmeal-free fast runoff I might go ahead and give it a shot. I still don't like checking the level and adjusting the inlet and effluent flow rates to zero out accumulation.

I have followed this thread with great interest. I like the beauty of simple things and I found somebody making a brewing system that has the benefits of the Hartford Loop described above. Jesse at More Beer in Concord CA told me about a new brewing system that he has been using that uses a vacuum pump: Vacuum Brew Kit | MoreBeer.
Essentially, when it is time to sparge, the boil kettle has a vacuum pump hooked up to it which is sealed with a gasket on the lid. The boil kettle is in turn hooked up to the mash tun which also sealed and is hooked up to the liquor kettle.
What happens, is that the three kettles are hooked up in series and when the vacuum pump is turned on, each kettle draws exactly the same volume of liquid from the previous kettle.
Jesse, said one of the major benefits is that the vacuum pump is a really inexpensive pump that never pumps liquid, just air.
Looks like a cool idea

This would require a sealing lid on all three vessels if I got it figured correctly. Sounds like kind of a pain to me, but cool to see new things showing up...

TerapinChef said:

Did this ever happen? Or anything close to it? I'm going to be looking to design a new MLT soon and was wondering if there was ever anything to say about it...

Click to expand...

Not yet. I will eventually get to this but I am working with a new rig and want to make sure all the other kinks are out first. If this loop creates a problem during a batch I want to make sure that this will be the only problem. It will happen though and I will post to this thread when it does.

TerapinChef said:

This would require a sealing lid on all three vessels if I got it figured correctly. Sounds like kind of a pain to me, but cool to see new things showing up...

Click to expand...

Yes, it does need a sealing lid. Somehow they found a gasket and a small clamp mechanism that seals the lid.
What was intriguing was that he set his sparge volume in his hot liquor tank and turned on the vacuum pump and the system did everything without any tinkering. The liquid flows were even throughout the three vessels.
Finding a boiling kettle that seals and is cheap (my requirement) would prevent me from starting down this path, but given some of the technically apt people on this site, an economically viable system could be made.

calpyro said:

Yes, it does need a sealing lid. Somehow they found a gasket and a small clamp mechanism that seals the lid.
What was intriguing was that he set his sparge volume in his hot liquor tank and turned on the vacuum pump and the system did everything without any tinkering. The liquid flows were even throughout the three vessels.
Finding a boiling kettle that seals and is cheap (my requirement) would prevent me from starting down this path, but given some of the technically apt people on this site, an economically viable system could be made.

Click to expand...

I forget the name of the cooking technique but one can mix flour and water and paint the paste around the lid of a dutch oven (or in this case boil kettle) and heat will bake the paste into a caulk making the lid airtight. Not the most practical solution but I bet it is just about the cheapest method possible and many homebrewers tend to be frugal when it comes to equipment! Just trying to get outside that damn box.

Might work...but you'd have to bake it somehow, and I'm not sure it would hold a vaccuum. But that just depends on how much pressure we're talking about here...

Well, it isn't difficult to know how much pressure it would have to hold. The most pressure possible is the largest difference in fluid height possible across the three vessels. If one wanted to be especially accurate (like me) they would correct for the density of wort since it is more dense than water and required more deltaP to flow.

ChemE said:

Yeah, sorry I've been slacking on the parts list but I did use 3/8" rather than 1/2" . Other than a tighter spacing on the slots (kudos to your patience my friend) that looks like a perfect knockoff of mine!

Click to expand...

Thanks! I've been doing a hybrid sparge (BM's) and it's been working really well, but I'm really confused on the amount of water to put through this to get 6.5 gallons. My last batch I just ran until I had it. It seems the "stop at 1.020 test or boil volume" always will leave me with too little wort. The first bits out (post vorlauf) must be very concentrated and the latter runoff diluted.
My next step is to do your fly sparge setup but in copper. Hopefully that will help me. But I suppose I need to do a good job of calculating the water. Do you use BeerSmith and have found a good profile/kit setup for your system?

thanks again - love the design...

I use BeerSmith to give me my boil volume (6.72 gallons for me with my squat pot and 90 minute boils) but the actual sparge water I figure myself. It's not hard though:

sparge water = preboil volume in gallons + 0.13 gallons/lb(grain in pounds) - mash water in gallons

So I'm assuming that each pound of grain soaks up 0.13 gallons of water so you add enough extra to compensate for that and then you sparge with whatever water you didn't mash with.

That whole rule of stopping at 1.020 or 1.01 is complete crap by the way. You need to stop if your pH gets too high that is absolutely true, but with low hardness water your water can stay acidic WAY below 1.010. For my ESB last weekend the last runnings were 1.004 and the pH was still 5.2. So feel free to take that old tired rule and throw it in the trash!

wedward said:

Do you use BeerSmith and have found a good profile/kit setup for your system?

thanks again - love the design...

Click to expand...

I've gotten this particular MLT pretty well dialed in in BeerSmith; here are the values I use:

BeerSmith Settings for my MLT


And thanks; I'm glad its working out for you too!

ChemE said:

BeerSmith Settings for my MLT
[/img]

Click to expand...

Ahhh - the 8lbs weight explains a bit. I had 4 in mine, and a lower evap. rate. It will help me get the next volumes closer. Thanks much for sharing this! :rockin:

I was wondering how you vorlauf until your first runnings are clear with this system. Do you just have to take the lid off of the mlt and pour your first runnings back in? This may be a dumb question, but I'm going to convert my MLT into this system this weekend and just couldn't figure this one out.

jmp138 said:

I was wondering how you vorlauf until your first runnings are clear with this system. Do you just have to take the lid off of the mlt and pour your first runnings back in? This may be a dumb question, but I'm going to convert my MLT into this system this weekend and just couldn't figure this one out.

Click to expand...

Sorry to disappoint you but yes; it is just that simple and un-sexy. Works great though. I usually only vorlauf around 2Q before the wort runs clear. I attribute it to the >8" grain bed but I could be wrong on that.

Yeah with my copper manifold it usually only takes around 2 quarts to clear up, but I just wanted to get the idea totally dialed in before I started the build. This is such a great idea for those of us that only use one kettle for the whole process, thanks ChemE!

I found one of those coolers at Sports Authority, $29.99