Belgian Quad SG 1.094 to 1.010 in 1 week....how I did it...if you want to know.

dontman · Feb 17, 2009

B-Dub said:
Dontman, WLP500 is Chimay.

That is what I suspected and especially so because my beer tasted remarkably like a Chimay Blue.

B-Dub · Feb 17, 2009

Dontman,

Nice work with the Chimay yeast! I am working my way over that way from the Westmalle yeast.

Ever try the WLP550 Achouffe?

I look at http://www.mrmalty.com/yeast.htm for the yeast strains. I didn't look in BLAM, but I bet the chart is right.

steelerguy · Feb 17, 2009

A few comments on this thread, especially since I just brewed up another big Belgian beer...

First, I did the temp ramp thing with my first Belgian and it still came out sweet. It was my third beer and first with a starter. Almost a year later I know a lot more now and since that beer was just about gone, it was time to brew it again...but AG this time and using things I had learned.

Second, build a stir plate, it really works well. I think it is also a good idea to build a nice big starter for a 1.080+ beer like some of these Belgians are. This time I did 1/3 gallon with 1.3 cups DME for 24 hours. Then I added 2/3 a gallon with 2.6 cups DME in it and let that go for 36 more hours. This is a lot of starter so definitely put it in fridge for awhile and decant that liquid off before pitching. Documented it here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/my-belgian-strong-ale-wyeast-1388-yeast-starter-99589/

Third, I am using a Johnson controller with a fermwrap heater to control temps in winter. I also built a Son of Fermentation Chamber (documented here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/smaller-son-fermentation-chiller-79556/) to cool things down during the summer. I ferment in the fermentation chamber, even in winter, so the heater will not have to run as often. I don't think you need a thermowell, just tape a chunk of neoprene from a mousepad or something to the side of the carboy and then stick the probe from the controller between that and the glass. Works very well.

Fourth, dontman, I think you are being a little hard on z987k. He did kind of vent in this thread, but I must admit...there is a lot of "do it this way just because" here. I have seen it on just about any forum, these trends start and then new people start telling even newer people to do something but they have no idea why they do it or even if they should do it. They just read it and then do it without understanding. Nothing wrong with really trying to understand why you should do something rather than blindly following along. Then again, it is probably better to ask rather than rant.

dontman · Feb 17, 2009

To your last paragraph. I agree that I was little hard but in a sort of friendly way. Meaning I would say that same thing to him at a bar over a beer with a smile on my face. Yes there is a lot of I did this and this happened. But this is good. It becomes incumbent upon the curious to probe with a question about a statement.

The fact is that I know a lot about making beers. I know a whole lot about about making Belgians. I will often make a statement like "i pitched at 76 and ramped to 82 over 48 hours." If you want to know why ask me why. Don't call me an ****** for not telling you in the first place.

On the other side of this When B-Dub tells me his methodology for achieving his profile I don't need him to write a four page annotated thesis with footnotes on the physics and chemistry behind the steps. He can tell me his ferment profile in a few keywords and I am good to go to try to duplicate. The thing is he does not need to tell me why he did anything because I know why he does them.

The rant by z was useless because even with the rant their still was no question asked. "Why what?" It was a grumpy mumbling and we have a whole forum for those.

Plus this is one of my favorite threads because it is a high level thread discussing hard to do right beers. The discussions are relevent and for the majority of us involved in this discussions they provide all of the how and whys of each item to which we refer.

dontman · Feb 17, 2009

B-Dub said:
Dontman,

Nice work with the Chimay yeast! I am working my way over that way from the Westmalle yeast.

Ever try the WLP550 Achouffe?

I look at Yeast Strains for the yeast strains. I didn't look in BLAM, but I bet the chart is right.

This is funny because I basically did Westmalle's recipe for their Golden with this one but I did it with the 500 and when I opened it I was drinking an immediately identifiable Chimay

I'm doing a Belgian Pale so that I can have a keg that I want to serve on tap. I did it as well with the 500 and I am keeping the profile on the more flat side with this 4 days at 72 2 days 74 17 at 68. I am keeping this low profile with just some plum nose working. Not enough ester to banana this up at all.

I also bought a couple pounds of Styrian Goldings.

My Saison is in the bottle and will be a barn burner. Just from the gravity column I was getting pepper, cardomom, orange, plum. My goal is to give Brasserie du Blaugies a run for their money with this one (even though I am using a DuPont strain,)

coyote · Feb 17, 2009

B-Dub said:
if I can help any one make better Belgian beer with the little knowledge I have, please post your question.

very much appreciate the offer!

I'm new to brewing (extract/steeping grains) but am working on trying to "perfect" (to my taste) a Belgian Dark Strong Ale...

one of the issues I had was the beers finished too dry (according to more experienced homebrewers)...like 1.008 (from 1.075) and 1.007 (from 1.074). On the one "monster" brew, I ended at 1.014 (from 1.103)

also...what types/amounts of steeping grains are most appropriate for this style? I hear it's pretty easy to over-do the steeping grains.

thanks!

leoglenwood · Feb 18, 2009

Hello from Medford, MA
and thanks for the awesome thread. A Belgian question:
I just brewed my second AG on Monday, and from now on I am going to make a starter (haven't made one yet)... I made a tripel OG 1.082
and pitched 3 vials of WL530 and it isn't fermenting; my pitching temp was 68 and my fermometer (the strip on the 6.5 g carboy, right?) has been hovering between 67 and 70. I added some yeast energizer today and was going to try another tube of 530.
Do I aerate again?
Should I put the carboy by the radiator or will that fusel me?
Would you add a fourth tube or would that be overpitching?

Thanks.

dontman · Feb 18, 2009

Don't do anything more. Don't reaerate!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your yeast is busy using up the oxygen that is already in suspension. Just because you don't see visible signs does not mean that there is not a bunch of activity going on.

Relax you are fine.

That thing is going to blowoff huge when it starts. I hope you have a blowoff rig ready.

Once the krausen gets going let it sit for 24-48 hours then start raising the temp up to the upper 70's and let that hang out for few days. Then let the temp fall naturally. I like mid 60s for the resting period.

leoglenwood · Feb 18, 2009

Thanks. You are right on the money. It is really going now and I am getting the blowoff set up.
So from now on I should do a starter, right? When you do that, what temp should I start my tripels?
Once it gets warmer in Massachusetts, I'll ask about saisons...which I love but can never ferment fully (attenuate fully).
I was going to buy that $130 temp control thing on Northern brewer, where the cord dangles in the wort, and you control the heating wrap digitally...
is that the preferred way to control Belgian fermentations?
Thanks again

dontman · Feb 18, 2009

I use a $20 immersion aquarium heater in a $12 beer cooler filled with water (swamp cooler) Works great during the cold months. A couple ice bottles in the warm months.

Yes, either do a starter or work from washed yeast.

B-Dub · Feb 21, 2009

one of the issues I had was the beers finished too dry (according to more experienced homebrewers)...like 1.008 (from 1.075) and 1.007 (from 1.074). On the one "monster" brew, I ended at 1.014 (from 1.103)

also...what types/amounts of steeping grains are most appropriate for this style? I hear it's pretty easy to over-do the steeping grains.

If you want to keep your beer from fermenting so dry you can mash higher. That would be the simple answer and the book answer.

Also you need to look at the % of extract you are getting from simple sugars. If you are in the 25% to 30% range you could replace them with malt and raise your FG.

As for steeping grains, I flat don't know.

dontman · Feb 21, 2009

one of the issues I had was the beers finished too dry (according to more experienced homebrewers)...like 1.008 (from 1.075) and 1.007 (from 1.074). On the one "monster" brew, I ended at 1.014 (from 1.103)

also...what types/amounts of steeping grains are most appropriate for this style? I hear it's pretty easy to over-do the steeping grains.

Dark strongs rely on serious malt complexity so specialty grains become a critical part of any recipe. I use Caravienne, Special B, Honey Malt, various Crystal malts, in varying amounts. It is the proportions that make your recipe yours and there is no right answer as to what quantities.

Keep in mind that in this style the hops are subordinate to the malt and meant to highlight not be the focus.

( I believe you are mistaking "dryness" for some other characteristic. My guess is fusel alcohol. Your beers are not coming out even as dry as commercial Belgians which often go as low as 1.003. Time will mellow out fusels.

coyote · Feb 21, 2009

appreciate the replies!

obtaining that malty depth is another issue with extract brewing. I tried to get that with the steeping grains...

mkade · Feb 23, 2009

Dontman, do you also ramp up the temperatures on a wit to make sure it fully ferments? If so, to what temp and for how long? What kind of conditioning period would you do afterward?

coyote · Feb 23, 2009

dontman said:
I believe you are mistaking "dryness" for some other characteristic. My guess is fusel alcohol. Your beers are not coming out even as dry as commercial Belgians which often go as low as 1.003. Time will mellow out fusels.

it's funny you say that...my tasting notes mentioned a "hot alcohol" taste... those more experienced homebrewers labeled it as "too dry".

this was NOT a "headache" ale, though...and no other off flavors (other than the fusel or dry taste). otherwise, just a nice peppery Belgian flavor from the yeasts

dontman · Feb 23, 2009

mkade said:
Dontman, do you also ramp up the temperatures on a wit to make sure it fully ferments? If so, to what temp and for how long? What kind of conditioning period would you do afterward?

I let wits ride the natural temp curve. My cellar ambient is always mid 60s. Ferment will take a 5 gallon carboy up 7-8 degrees. So the wits hit 73-75 and that is fine. With other beers I need to push it higher artificially.

mkade · Feb 23, 2009

dontman said:
I let wits ride the natural temp curve. My cellar ambient is always mid 60s. Ferment will take a 5 gallon carboy up 7-8 degrees. So the wits hit 73-75 and that is fine. With other beers I need to push it higher artificially.

Thanks I appreciate your help. I'm going to be brewing a tripel next weekend, and my main goal had been to dry it out the last few points and I think the temperature could be a huge help in doing it.

dontman · Feb 23, 2009

coyote said:
it's funny you say that...my tasting notes mentioned a "hot alcohol" taste... those more experienced homebrewers labeled it as "too dry".

this was NOT a "headache" ale, though...and no other off flavors (other than the fusel or dry taste). otherwise, just a nice peppery Belgian flavor from the yeasts

Yeah I reread that part of your post (about the homebrewers opinions) and was curious myself. Another possibility is that you did not get enough ester production and they are interpreting lack of fruity esters as too dry.

I still believe a lot of people wait too long to raise the ferment temp in an attempt to forego fusel production and miss out on the best spot in the ferment to get good esters.

I had another one of my Golden Triples last night. I was floored again. Even my wife liked it and she does not like beer.

coyote · Feb 23, 2009

dontman said:
I had another one of my Golden Triples last night. I was floored again.

if you ever get to the other end of the state, I'd like to try one of your Tripels and get your expert critique on my meager efforts.

mkade · Feb 24, 2009

So I just realized from Brewing like a Monk that Chimay (WLP 500) is where they really heat it up above 80, but with Westmalle (WLP 530) they keep the temps below 70 the entire fermentation. My plan had been a tripel with 530, should I avoid the high temps like they do at Westmalle, or is it still OK to heat it up after some time period do y'all think?

B-Dub · Feb 24, 2009

Hey mkade,

I am just up the road from you in SLO!

As for the yeast question, the WLP500 is Chimay and I do not have much experience with that one.

The WLP530 is the Westmalle yeast and depending on what brewery you look at, the temps differ. I forget what page it is, but in BLAM it talks about one yeast three beers/breweries. You might have the two yeasts mixed up. Take a second look.

The WLP530 is notorious for fermenting down to 1.030 and stopping. Personally I like to make sure the temps are nice and high towards the end. The last half even.

The main points at the beginning of this post are what I have found to make sure you avoid the stuck ferment. The 530 makes a great Triple by the way. I need to bottle 10 gallons this weekend.

BDUB

mkade · Feb 24, 2009

B-Dub said:
Hey mkade,

I am just up the road from you in SLO!

As for the yeast question, the WLP500 is Chimay and I do not have much experience with that one.

The WLP530 is the Westmalle yeast and depending on what brewery you look at, the temps differ. I forget what page it is, but in BLAM it talks about one yeast three beers/breweries. You might have the two yeasts mixed up. Take a second look.

The WLP530 is notorious for fermenting down to 1.030 and stopping. Personally I like to make sure the temps are nice and high towards the end. The last half even.

The main points at the beginning of this post are what I have found to make sure you avoid the stuck ferment. The 530 makes a great Triple by the way. I need to bottle 10 gallons this weekend.

BDUB

B-Dub, That's pretty sweet. My housemate's boyfriend is finishing up at Cal Poly right now. I'm sure I had the yeasts right (500 Chimay, 530 Westmalle), but I just wasn't sure if it was OK to stray from what they do fermentation-wise at Westmalle (keeping it below 70). Thanks for the advice on stuck at 1030, I did not know that that was an issue. My plan for now is to have only the malt in kettle, and to add the sugar (inverted on my stove) a few days into fermentation, after high krausen has passed. I might lean towards caution raising the temp with this yeast, and just do it if I find from gravity readings that it's not progressing as quickly as I thought. Have you used 530 yourself?

B-Dub · Feb 24, 2009

My go to yeast is the 530 and I use it all the time.

Yeah, you have the strains right, just the temps might be a little off. The 530 can go into the 70's and low 80's.

If the yeast stops at 1.030, it might be to late to warm it up. The best thing to do is let it warm up on its own to the mid 70's during fermentation to insure proper fermentation and ester production.

I like to help the fermentation along by warming at the middle to end.

dontman · Feb 24, 2009

And my go to is the 500 so I know that that one is fine to go high with as well.

I really think there is some conflicting info going out though. Because when I first looked into cloning Westmalle I know they talked about going to 78 on day 3.

I'm with B-Dub the higher attenuation effect of higher temp ferment comes from warming it during high krausen. Post krausen higher temp has little effect, good or bad.

mkade · Feb 24, 2009

Alright, sounds good and thanks for the advice. I will let let you know how it goes with this brew.

mkade · Mar 9, 2009

Hey guys,

I brewed my Tripel, followed a temperature plan as talked about here. My OG was 1.090 (84% pils, 1% aromatic, 15% sugar inverted on my stove top). I just took a gravity reading, which I adjusted for the fact that the sample was at 82F, and the gravity has dropped to 1.009 for an apparent attenuation of 89%. The strange thing is that I took a taste of the sample, and it tasted sweet despite a hop schedule that should produce 35 IBUs. You guys think that's strange, or simply a function of tasting 82 degree flat beer?

dontman · Mar 9, 2009

Put 3.5 or 4 volumes of CO2 on it and everything will start to balance out.

beerthirty · Mar 9, 2009

I've been following this thread for a while and planning my next Belgian. Most of you seem to prefer the fruity ester over the spicy. I prefer the spicy. My last couple of Belgians were brewed with 550 for this reason but they finished high(1.024) and seemed to be lacking somewhat. I feel the ultimate Belgian is Piraat and I'm trying to replicate this fine brew. I plan on using temp ramp on the next brew to help with attenuation, but was wondering if anyone had any suggestions that might help. The recipe I'm working with comes from "Clone Brews"

I wholeheartedly agree with using the CO2 to help balance a sweet beer. Dissolved CO2 makes a brew more acidic which helps the balance of many beers.

mkade · Mar 12, 2009

dontman said:
Put 3.5 or 4 volumes of CO2 on it and everything will start to balance out.

So I was wondering what you guys do about bottling. I recently set up my kegging system, and while it would be nice to have this beer on draft, part of me feels like I'm cheating by not bottle conditioning. At the same time, I don't have the bottles to get a proper high (3+ volumes) carbonation. Keg, bottle, carbonate naturally in keg? Any advice is appreciated.

dontman · Mar 12, 2009

The only Belgian that I have ever kegged is a pale that should be fairly tame. All the others I have bottled because I want them to last for years and drink them very slowly.

I did sugar carb the pale ale in keg. It is on my back porch right now chilling down prior to going into the kegerator tomorrow.

Belgian Quad SG 1.094 to 1.010 in 1 week....how I did it...if you want to know.

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big beers turn my gears

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