Ice cider without the work

Hello all, I've been lurking here for a while but I think it's time for a post...

There have been several posts about ice cider here, both about making it the traditional way (freezing apple cider to concentrate) and a few posts asking if you could skip the freezing bit and just make it with apple juice concentrate from the supermarket.

A few months ago I decided to try making some the supermarket way, here was my method and (partial) result.

I made a one gallon batch, using Shurfine apple juice concentrate (most if not all apple juice concentrates are the same, they're mostly made in South America, and then they slap different labels on for different companies). If you were not aware, apple juice concentrate is commercially made basically the same way it's made for "pure" ice cider, by freezing the juice and removing the water. They just do it on a much larger scale.

Anyway, the apple juice concentrate as it comes in the can is much too sugary, my hygrometer doesn't have a scale anywhere near where it was floating. I cut it down with water until I had an O.G. of ~1.130 (my hygrometer didn't go above 1.15, so I was estimating. I bought one with a more appropriate scale for next time). I added pectic enzyme, yeast nutrient and Cotes des Blanc yeast, and it fermented for about 8 days, at which point the gravity reading was 1.040. I added potassium sulfate and cold crashed it, and racked it off the lees.

Then I set it in my cellar (I'm lucky enough to own a 19th century farmhouse with a stone cellar that keeps between 55-60F throughout the year) and left it alone for a month, before bottling in some 375 and 750ml bottles I had, before leaving it some more.

It's been over two months now, and we've had two of the bottles. It's still just a bit young tasting, but the flavor is excellent. It has a very slightly thicker consistency then your regular wine or cider, and the sweetness is set off by the acidity. It's definitely a dessert drink though, more for sipping then throwing back.

The results came out tasting similar enough to professional ice ciders (especially Eden Ice from Vermont) that I think I will continue using concentrated apple juice rather than the hassle of manually freezing. If there's a difference, it's subtle enough not to matter. Plus, seeing how Eden Ice goes for ~25$ for 375ml, and I can get enough concentrated apple juice to make a gallon for $15-20 bucks, I can make $300 dollars of ice cider for $20!

My only change next time will be to wait another month before bottling, with one extra rack in between. The cider cleared nicely after a month in the bottle, but left a bunch of sediment. Better to leave that in the carboy.

I'm interested to see comments from someone who has done with both ways. In particular comparisons in cost, time, taste, clarity, off flavors, etc.

Op I had the same idea after listening to the recorded AHA Ice Cider presentation by Nathan Williams (2014).

The store bought Tree Top brand frozen concentrate once thawed was beyond what my refractometer could read (32 brix max). No big surprise there.
I took a 3ml sample and diluted it with 3ml water and got 22 brix so 44 brix (1.210sg) should be what the thawed concentrate measures.

I am making a 1 gallon batch with 5; 12oz containers of frozen concentrate then topped off to 1 gallon with store bought apple juice.
If the Beer Smith dilution tool is correct once it is all thawed and mixed I should have 1 gallon of 31 brix (1.139sg) must ready for some yeast.

I decided to remove this post.

I've done this using about half concentrate and half juice in a 1 gallon batch. Then I went straight ahead and freeze-distilled it into applejack. It was AMAZING, a potent dessert liquor that tasted like pie a bit.

My mother in law got a bottle, but, believing it to be ordinary cider, used it to wash down a couple ambien one late night- she slept right through work the next day.

MindenMan said:

I don't remember where the post is, but someone else used the same basic recipe, and got bad results, I'll find the post and link it later today. I would like to know how you got such great results using such a high O.G.

Click to expand...

In the presentation I linked to Nathan did mention how he got 1 batch that did not hit the minimum OG of 30 brix. That batch turned out bland and watery.

I got mine in primary but missed my target and only got to 29.2 brix somehow. Going to ferment it and stop the fermentation as planned to see if the work might be worth doing it again scaled up to 3 gallons.

I really like apple jack, and I make it as often as gallon jugs of apple juice or cider go on sale. When I started making a/j, I didn't keep good records, and a batch from last September I recently found, is amazingly smooth and it doesn't have the alcohol bite at all. Damn, I wish there was more than one 8oz bottle left... I have other bottles of a/j at different ages and juice blends stashed, and seeing as how aging really improves the flavor and mouth feel, I will likely make a really high gravity batch to lay down until my Daughters 21st birthday comes. I have never put more than two cans of concentrate into a gallon jug topped off with cider, but I will have to try the higher gravity versions. I have left the ciders I have made a tiny bit sweet to balance out the alcohol burn when freeze concentrated. I could use my hydrometer to check the F.G., but I haven't used it so far. I guess I will have to start using it, to keep track of which F.G. ciders I prefer to drink young, and which ones I prefer to drink with aging

I find it interesting how the foam on top comes and goes.

FWIW I too am trying a [very] small batch of "easy" ice cider.

Mine is pure concentrate with only enough extra water added to dissolve the nutrient and energizer. Started off at a calculated 1.16 SG (36 °Bx) and after a few days is down to 1.13.

A small taste indicates it is already lacking the flavor density of commercial ice ciders so this looks like it may end as "an interesting experiment". Very early still though so maybe some serious age will bring up the flavor.

I ice cider often. However, I don't mind icing large volumes of watery cider since I have a good freezer. I also make a run to the apple orchards east of Los Angeles annually for apple juice to make cider and ice-cider.

I later took the ice cider concept, made an Eise Beer and got it all the way up to 30% abv. I fractionally froze the beer three times using dry ice, and, threw out the syrup on the first run, which gave me a dry tasting beer that I would say tastes better than Bourbon. I am in the process of making it again. I usually end up with 15% to 20% of the original volume.

Cheers,

My experiment fermenting apple juice concentrate continues to progress... slowly. SG is now 1.082 but it has dropped very little in the past week so I think it may be about done. Still, that works out to an ABV of 11.2% which is decent. Not clear yet though so I will let it sit for longer.

Taste has improved. Notably sweet but with some sourness on the finish to cut through it a bit. Not bad really.

jsiddall said:

FWIW I too am trying a [very] small batch of "easy" ice cider.

Mine is pure concentrate with only enough extra water added to dissolve the nutrient and energizer. Started off at a calculated 1.16 SG (36 °Bx) and after a few days is down to 1.13.

A small taste indicates it is already lacking the flavor density of commercial ice ciders so this looks like it may end as "an interesting experiment". Very early still though so maybe some serious age will bring up the flavor.

Click to expand...

Jsiddall, if you can get near your target FG, you can back sweeten it with apple juice, sugar, brown sugar or honey.

Don't worry be happy,

Final update: this finished at 1.072 meaning an ABV of 12%. I expected EC-1118 would take it to 18% or so and I don't have a good explanation for why it stalled. Regardless, it is pretty close to where I was hoping it would end so I sulfited and sorbated it, cleared it with Sparkolloid and bottled. It is crystal clear (the bottle texture makes it look cloudy) and smells and tastes great. It is surprisingly good even if it is lacking some flavor density and complexity of typical commercial examples. Given it is just 40 days old it definitely has some time to improve.

So ec1118 in this case shouldn't strip the cider to nothing?

Would EC-1118 stall at 12%? Probably not so temperature.

What was the juice temp. when it stopped fermenting? Looks great!

Nope, temperature was a constant 20 C (68 F). Although I would have liked it to go down closer to 1.05 I am happy with it as is. Very sweet and flavorful, which is hard to complain about.

About the only thing I can think of is perhaps the residual sanitizing liquid on the surface of the hydrometer and thief were enough over time to sulfite the juice to the extent that it harmed the yeast. In a large batch the residual sanitizer volume is trivial but I was fermenting in a 750 ml champagne bottle so even a few ml of sanitizer contains a significant amount of sulfites.

I plan on making a bigger batch next so I will post the results of that. Perhaps it will ferment drier.

Im still a bit confused. You state your finish Gravity was 1.07 but you hoped for 1.05. My cider starting Gravity is closer to those two. What was your starting gravity?

If u have that much sugar left did u kill the yeast? Because it can come back and go wild.

MarkKF said:

Im still a bit confused. You state your finish Gravity was 1.07 but you hoped for 1.05. My cider starting Gravity is closer to those two. What was your starting gravity?

If u have that much sugar left did u kill the yeast? Because it can come back and go wild.

Click to expand...

See my post #6 above. My initial SG was 1.16. Keep in mind this thread is about making ice cider with juice concentrate.

I have had similar things happen with overly sweet must and ec1118. I think when we're doing that we really have to pull from the winemakers handbook, because it's not cider anymore.

Generally the winemakers (Yooper, correct me if I'm wrong) make sure that the must gets lots of oxygen exposure at the begginning and regular aeration to get the necessary amount of yeast growth, and be able to grow enough to take the must all the way down.

I'm making a shot at an iced cider. I used 5 cans of frozen concentrate and topped with store brought cider. I'm using WLP500. I'll have to check my notes for the OG. I pulled a sample to check it (I'm shooting to get it to the 10-12% range). It had a bit further to go, but it tasted amazing. I'll keep you updated if anyone is interested.

jsiddall said:

Nope, temperature was a constant 20 C (68 F). Although I would have liked it to go down closer to 1.05 I am happy with it as is. Very sweet and flavorful, which is hard to complain about.

About the only thing I can think of is perhaps the residual sanitizing liquid on the surface of the hydrometer and thief were enough over time to sulfite the juice to the extent that it harmed the yeast. In a large batch the residual sanitizer volume is trivial but I was fermenting in a 750 ml champagne bottle so even a few ml of sanitizer contains a significant amount of sulfites.

I plan on making a bigger batch next so I will post the results of that. Perhaps it will ferment drier.

Click to expand...

Id read a high starting gravity can cause lower attenuation and to hit that 18% it'd be better to step the sugar additions, in this case start with something like juice gravity 1.050ish and add more concentrate as fermentation slows. Once the yeast poop out just sweeten to where you want with more concentrate.

I started another 1 gal batch of this 5 days ago with the same initial SG of 1.16 and it is now at 1.092. I will post back how low it gets.

semibreve42 said:

Hello all, I've been lurking here for a while but I think it's time for a post...



There have been several posts about ice cider here, both about making it the traditional way (freezing apple cider to concentrate) and a few posts asking if you could skip the freezing bit and just make it with apple juice concentrate from the supermarket.



A few months ago I decided to try making some the supermarket way, here was my method and (partial) result.



I made a one gallon batch, using Shurfine apple juice concentrate (most if not all apple juice concentrates are the same, they're mostly made in South America, and then they slap different labels on for different companies). If you were not aware, apple juice concentrate is commercially made basically the same way it's made for "pure" ice cider, by freezing the juice and removing the water. They just do it on a much larger scale.



Anyway, the apple juice concentrate as it comes in the can is much too sugary, my hygrometer doesn't have a scale anywhere near where it was floating. I cut it down with water until I had an O.G. of ~1.130 (my hygrometer didn't go above 1.15, so I was estimating. I bought one with a more appropriate scale for next time). I added pectic enzyme, yeast nutrient and Cotes des Blanc yeast, and it fermented for about 8 days, at which point the gravity reading was 1.040. I added potassium sulfate and cold crashed it, and racked it off the lees.



Then I set it in my cellar (I'm lucky enough to own a 19th century farmhouse with a stone cellar that keeps between 55-60F throughout the year) and left it alone for a month, before bottling in some 375 and 750ml bottles I had, before leaving it some more.



It's been over two months now, and we've had two of the bottles. It's still just a bit young tasting, but the flavor is excellent. It has a very slightly thicker consistency then your regular wine or cider, and the sweetness is set off by the acidity. It's definitely a dessert drink though, more for sipping then throwing back.



The results came out tasting similar enough to professional ice ciders (especially Eden Ice from Vermont) that I think I will continue using concentrated apple juice rather than the hassle of manually freezing. If there's a difference, it's subtle enough not to matter. Plus, seeing how Eden Ice goes for ~25$ for 375ml, and I can get enough concentrated apple juice to make a gallon for $15-20 bucks, I can make $300 dollars of ice cider for $20!



My only change next time will be to wait another month before bottling, with one extra rack in between. The cider cleared nicely after a month in the bottle, but left a bunch of sediment. Better to leave that in the carboy.

Click to expand...

How long do you usually cold crash for?


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Quick update: looks like the second batch has ended up at 1.074 (12.9% ABV) which is virtually identical to the first batch. For whatever reason EC-1118 seems to poop out around 12-13% in FAJC even though its alcohol tolerance is much higher.

I had a similar experience and wondered if I had not sufficiently aerated at the beginning on fermentation


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

You could try staggering nutrients too like the mead makes do.

jsiddall said:

Quick update: looks like the second batch has ended up at 1.074 (12.9% ABV) which is virtually identical to the first batch. For whatever reason EC-1118 seems to poop out around 12-13% in FAJC even though its alcohol tolerance is much higher.

Click to expand...

Good info. I was going to do the next batch by just adding the FAJC until the yeast can't go any further.

I agree with priceless... staggered nutrients could probably help. I didn't see you added nutrients in the beginning, maybe I missed it. I add one can of FAJC to1 gallon minus 16oz, let it ferment, remove 12 oz, add another FAJC , ferment, add FAJC and once more and then into the freezer.

MindenMan said:

I agree with priceless... staggered nutrients could probably help. I didn't see you added nutrients in the beginning, maybe I missed it. I add one can of FAJC to1 gallon minus 16oz, let it ferment, remove 12 oz, add another FAJC , ferment, add FAJC and once more and then into the freezer.

Click to expand...

In the latest batch I started with nutrient and energizer then added some more nutrient part way through the ferment. I aerated at the beginning, but not after that. I also added slightly more FAJC once the SG dropped to about 1.08 mainly to top-up the carboy.

I expected all that should have made the yeast happy. There were no farts or anything else strange looking. I dunno. Perhaps another yeast like K1V-1118 would be happier in apples.

Last year I made an ice wine from a kit and there were no extra nutrients added (there may have been some in the juice initially) and the initial SG was exactly the same and it only fermented to 1.064.

I think Bearclaw215 has it right. It seems there is something about the combination of increasing alcohol in the presence of a lot of remaining sugar that the yeast has a hard time with. To get the ABV up (and the final SG down) may require starting with plain juice (SG of perhaps 1.04) and then adding the FAJC in regular doses.

Truthfully I really don't want to take it much further anyway but next time (which won't be for a while) I may try starting with an apple juice base then step feeding the FAJC until I have the desired ABV (accounting for the dilution from backsweetening). Then let it ferment dry, then sulfite/sorbate and backsweeten to the desired final sugar content with more FAJC.

If I do I will be curious to see if the net result is less flavorful in addition to being less sweet. Starting with plain apple juice would certainly reduce the flavor concentration, but adding pure FAJC after fermentation ends may offset that compared to having the FAJC in the ferment all along.

Last night I purchased two, 1 gallon jugs of Musselmans cider; not filtered, or from concentrate. I also purchased 5 cans of plain FAJC, one can of Apple-Cherry FJC, and one can of Apple Raspberry FJC. In the past, I have usually put the "flavored" concentrate can in first. This time I am staggering the addition of the three cans each. The "extra" plain can is for "just in case". I will keep you guys posted as fermentation goes forward. I don't usually hydro along the way as to not waste my hardened cider, but this time I will so I have an accurate record step by step. I use Red Star Pasteur Red Yeast for all my cider of late. It doesn't strip out the fruit flavor, at least not noticeably. At the end of fermentation, there is no doubt the cider is apple, and I don't get any harsh alcohol flavors even after freeze concentrating. Yes, it is alcohol warm, but no off flavors of any kind.

I know the methanol concerns are small, but I'm freezing six cans worth of concentrate to get the pectin out.
With juice, the idea is to freeze and thaw multiple times to get the pectin to jelly-ize itself, and then rack your desired juice off of it. this pectin is what ferments into methanol.

what are you thoughts? will freeze/thawing do anything for concentrate? do i assume the concentration process worked all that out and filtered it before sale?

any experience here?

thanks.

I do not think you can freeze the pectin out, if it was that easy no one would make the enzyme to break down pectin's. I have not heard that pectin's are ferment able (got a link to that info?) if they were cider would clear easily post fermentation with out the enzyme addition. The freeze concentration process is to remove water and increase the sugar content, I assume the pectin sticks with the sugars.
IMO thawing and freezing FAJC is not doing anything the manufacture has not already done.

When I made my gallon test the juice thawed out nicely (not hazy indicating pectin might be present). Post fermentation with D47 cleared easily with no need to cold crash, now I need to bottle and move them to the fridge.

Results from my last post/batch, adding 4 cans of FAJC effectively raises the O.G to 1.120. By adding 1 can initially, the O.G. was 1.070. I checked the S.G when fermentation quit and it was 1.000, so I poured out 12 oz and added a can of FAJC, fermented out, same process. At the end of fermentation after 4 cans FAJC the F.G was 1.002. In theory the ABV was 18-20%. There was alcohol for sure but no off flavors or smells, and I am sure I could have pushed it farther with more FAJC, but I wanted to see how the highest proof batch would freeze. My freezer is -11*F, and it took 4 days for the alcohol to start floating on the top, and that is when I drained out half of the gallon jug, and placed that concentrate into a clean jug and froze again. I cannot tell you what the final proof is, but the alcohol burn is on the back of the throat on the way down, not in the mouth if you know what I mean. I am using Red Star Pasteur Red yeast, and couldn't be happier about the results.

Well... it has now been a year since I made this and it turned out rather good. It smoothed out a bit from early sampling and is really enjoyable now. It is probably sweeter than I would like so when I attempt this next I will dilute the initial juice to get the SG a few points lower without the ABV getting too high.

Wow. This brings back memories. A long time ago I posted (under a different account which I have completely forgotten) about freezing cider prior to brewing to concentrate flavor and sugar content after I had a crappy problem with straight cider losing its flavor after a few months being bottled.

People looked at me like I had 7 eyes.

Now I'm on to doing things the apple juice concentrate way... (sort of).

Currently, I got two five gallon containers going with about 4 gallons of local cider and pitched into each 6 cans of apple juice concentrate. Using Red Star's Pasteur Champagne yeast, a touch of pectic enzyme, and a scant bit of nutrient.

And they're still bubbling away.

So what's the big difference?

If you use apple cider rather than apple juice (and this applies to all recipes) you get the apple bits still in the cider that the juice doesn't have. That means more lees and more racking, but you do get the chance to have what's locked up in those microscopic apple solid particles to enhance your brew. That goes the same for apple juice concentrate over freezing the cider and distilling out the sugary syrup and tossing out the water. I HAVE noticed though that the water being tossed has a lot of floral apple notes that aren't being distilled out, but that's not to say that apple juice concentrate still has them (I highly doubt it does), nor that you can't freeze after your primary (or secondary) and concentrate then. (more on that in a few minutes).

Apple juice tend to be cheaper, and it's far less seasonal than cider is. It's also a lot less work than freezing and concentrating cider and takes far less time. This means you can use this method year round, it's more economical, and easier.

Personally though, as you can see I find enough value in using the actual cider and keeping the apple solids in the brew (I mean come on. Apple juice and Apple cider even before they're brewed don't taste the same!), but I find cheating a little and using the apple juice concentrate in combination seems to work much better.

Now back to that freezing after racking. Did that the first time I brewed cider. Thought it would be a good way to make "apple jack". It isn't. However, typically just brewing cider straight out of the jug isn't of high enough alcohol content that as long as there was some slight residual sweetness (sugar) in the brew, chances are by freezing and concentrating, you could end up with a product that had a higher alcohol content AND a higher sugar content AND still have enough yeast activity to restart fermentation and run hot again. (and that time I was using White Labs liquid English Cider yeast and maybe some servomyces, for those that want to recreate it).

The results weren't bad, but it WAS still incredibly sweet, and incredibly potent.

Which leads to another issue with freezing the cider before or after brewing: what you "distill" down to is nearly impossible to gauge or control. Essentially going through that method means more chance, where as apple juice concentrate is a more consistent product. You can replicate results more evenly by using it.

Enjoyed my first bottle (bottled Feb 2015 has been in the fridge since) of this last night and it was fantastic! Maybe a bit sweeter than I wanted but it has all the flavor I have been looking for. Definitely better results than my first attempts at "normal" cider using store bought juice.

fuzzy2133 said:

Enjoyed my first bottle (bottled Feb 2015 has been in the fridge since) of this last night and it was fantastic! Maybe a bit sweeter than I wanted but it has all the flavor I have been looking for. Definitely better results than my first attempts at "normal" cider using store bought juice.

Click to expand...

Curious what ur current refined methodology is for ur ice cider? About to undertake my 1st 1gal batch to ring in 2018 [emoji3]

Cheers!

Also curious what yeasts folks are using for their ice ciders - I currently have S04, S05 & WLP775 in the fridge...wondering if any of those would be good candidates or should I get something else? Thx & Cheers!

Book marking this thread...

Does anyone have guidance for how much nutrient to use and when to add it?

I have fermaid k on hand, planning a one gallon batch with r-hst yeast.