Spa Panel Wiring for Dummies

How do you test the third wire to see if it is a neutral or ground? Dang, I thought I just about had this all understood and what I needed to do.

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In short, yeah, I want to know the same thing. Type SE wire with 8ga aluminum in a three wire outlet is grandfathered under the NEC codes, I know that much (I also know that connecting it to the spa panel may be a gray area, moreso since I moved it a few feet and rewired the outlet). But basically this is my question. I saw a few posts about not having a neutral and only a ground in a three prong outlet and I want to be able to test that uninsulated ground/neutral to see what it is and to make sure that what I have is what is excepted by code and I can do what is described in this thread.

I believe your cable does have an outer layer of insulation that covers the entire cable. The neutral in cables from the 1950's were commonly fabricated that way. Matter of fact, Romex cable was done exactly that way.

Another thing: You moved the outlet. You did not rewire the circuit.

Bottom line, you are A-Ok going with your plan. When you have your mains panel replaced and the wiring updated, that's when you replace the wiring.

P-J

Your advice is greatly appreciated.

This may help....

I got a used Spa panel for cheap that is a bit different than what is on here. Here are pictures.





From the diagram it seems pretty simple. My only question is the power source will be 3 wire. Would i just split the neutral in the box to neutral and ground?

ekjohns said:

I got a used Spa panel for cheap that is a bit different than what is on here. Here are pictures.
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From the diagram it seems pretty simple. My only question is the power source will be 3 wire. Would i just split the neutral in the box to neutral and ground?

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I do not have a single clue. Your images are so small & I cannot see or make a decent judgment about the issues.

So Sorry.. I cannot be of help to you in a very critical plan. I do not want to make a judgment with "You bet your life" as an outcome.

P-J

PJ thanks for coming to help! I have tried to replace the original pictures with better pictures. In case you cannot read the text (sorry about that) here is what it says:

Top: "This GFCI can be used to protect 240V 3 wire or 240V 4 wire devices up to 50 amps. If a 3 wire device is being protected a 312 AWG neutral is required from the power source (house) to the load center only.

Bottom left: Netral is no longer required on a 240V 3 wire circuit from the point

Bottom right: If the device to be served is 240v 3 wire the neutral wire from source to N requires a #12 AWG wire. Neutral is disregarded from this point.

The 2 wires between T2 and N are exposed ground wires

If it helps I can email you higher resolution pictures if you need them. Thank you again for helping!

EDIT: Here is a link to a higher resolution picture. If you click on it it will open up in a bigger picture

http://imageshack.us/f/836/img0471tw.jpg/

P-J said:

The GFCI setup I've illustrated is still using the same outlet and ground is being developed in a slightly different manner through the use of the GFCI breaker. It is legitimate and is in accordance with current NEC as there are no changes being made to the building wiring. Also, the neutral and the developed ground are not being bonded to earth in any manner.

Hope this helps.

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I am a bit confused about this. Does this mean the ground is not really connected to anything and is not a true ground? I found this wiring diagram online and on page 11 the top wiring diaphragm shows the 3 wire source being made into a 4 wire inside the spa panel but also shows the ground leaving the panel in 2 places (one to the hot tub and one to a grounding source).

http://www.sundancespas.com/Communications/InstructionManuals/06PreDelGuide.pdf

What are you trying to wire, 240 only or 120/240?

What is the source power supply?

I would prefer 120/240 but only require 240 and the source would be a 3 prong dryer outlet.

OK. Well....since you're tying into an existing circuit then it seems common opinion that you don't need to have a dedicated grounding wire. However, I think this is a bit muddy because that was relative to dedicated circuits for dryers and or ranges. Since the circuit is re-purposed when the brewing system is plugged in Code could get complicated. Not saying it changes things but by the same token I'm not sure it doesn't either.

Either way though, I don't believe it's proper to "derive" a grounding wire from the neutral on that dryer circuit. In other words, you have L1, L2, N coming in so that's all you can have coming out. You can't just make up G from N and wire it to a 4 pole plug and call it an equipment/safety grounding wire.

If you refer back to that link you posted to Sundance Spas information, it clearly shows an equipment grounding wire from the main panel to the spa panel regardless if you're connecting for 240V only or 120/240V. No doubt this assumes installing a new circuit, not using an old dryer or range circuit.

ekjohns said:

Top: "This GFCI can be used to protect 240V 3 wire or 240V 4 wire devices up to 50 amps. If a 3 wire device is being protected a #12 AWG neutral is required from the power source (house) to the load center only.

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What this means is that if you're using a 240V only application you still need to run a neutral even though it's not used for 240V. In this case I believe the purpose of the neutral is only for GFCI operation and since it will only carry a small amount of current, 12ga is plenty.

Note that running this neutral wire does not negate the need for a grounding wire from the main panel to the spa panel and from the spa panel to the load to have a grounding circuit.

The problem with saying 3-wire or 4-wire is they can be too generic to adequately describe the circuit or intent. Moreso with 3-wire. Three wire could be L1, L2, and G in a straight 240V circuit or it could be L1, L2, and N in a 120/240V circuit.

Bottom left: Netral is no longer required on a 240V 3 wire circuit from the point

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That's correct, on the load side neutral isn't required because a pure 240V circuit doesn't have a neutral. Doesn't negate the need for grounding wire though in that application.

ekjohns said:

Bottom right: If the device to be served is 240v 3 wire the neutral wire from source to N requires a #12 AWG wire. Neutral is disregarded from this point.

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That's just restating what was previously stated in the first panel information.

My advice is to replace the 3 wire 120/240 dryer circuit with a 4 wire 120/240V circuit so that you have a dedicated grounding wire.

Whether or not you can, by code, use 3-wire (L1, L2, N) circuits for this sort of thing is still unclear, to me, anyway, because the circuit is no longer dedicated to a dryer or range as the original intent of the circuit was. Plus, unclarity about the Code details of bonding of neutral to enclosures and equipment downstream of the main panel.

whoaru99 thanks for the in depth reply. I would love to just install a 4 prong plug but this will be in a house I am renting and moving into in 3 weeks so I would feel bad asking to install a 4 prong especially with the landlord leaving a 3 prong dryer for me. Any idea how much this would cost on average? it would be installed 2 feet from the main breaker

Another option I have is that i was going to build onto a control panel that I already have for my march pump. Currently the control panel is feed by a 120V source with a ground. My plan was to replace the 120V power source with 240V and feed everything off of that. Would it be possible to add 240V while leaving the 120V and use the ground from the 120V source for the whole control panel and pot?

The first part, about the cost, should be (subjectively) minimal. The following is assuming it's currently wired with non-metallic sheathed cable (aka Romex). If it's already in conduit it could be somewhat less cost.

14-30 receptacle = $8
10/3 w/ground cable (6ft) = $7 (if you can get per foot)
14-30 dryer cord = $20 (to convert dryer to 4 wire)

Probably need some wiring staples/clamps and a few other odds and ends. = $10.

That's DIY. If you had to call in an electrician I could only venture a guess. $100-$150.

As far as using the ground from the 120V circuit not really sure how that flies in the face of all this. Would it get you a ground? Yup, but again the devil is in the detail. Is a 14ga or 12ga grounding wire OK to cover for ground on a 30A circuit that requires 10ga wire? This and other questions...

To me it's just real muddy if you want to keep it all legit.

It may be ghetto, but if you're renting the house and don't want to monkey with someone else's panels and wiring, you could just replace the outlet to a 4 wire and run a dedicated ground from the panel to the outlet, so you'd keep the existing wiring (assuming it's the right gauge) for L1, L2, and N and then your new (appropriately sized) wire would be for G. They wouldn't be in the same conduit or insulation, and there's no way it would be code compliant, but it would involve minimal damage or modification to the house and would be very easy to revert back to normal when it's time to move out.

Would this panel work?
http://www.lowes.com/pd_320889-1318...nel&pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=spa+panel&facetInfo=

BadNewsBrewery said:

... They wouldn't be in the same conduit or insulation, and there's no way it would be code compliant, but it would involve minimal damage or modification to the house and would be very easy to revert back to normal when it's time to move out.

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Thanks for bringing that up...I forget I have that exact same scenario at my house and have always assumed it was code-compliant because I don't believe there has been any DIY electrical work in that regard.

My house is somewhat older and still has a number of non-grounding 120V receptacles. However, some time back the house was fitted with dual fuel (electric plenum heaters installed and have natural gas furnace) and the service panel upgraded to handle it. All this was done before I bought the place. A number of the easily accessible receptacles had been converted to grounding by running individual grounding wires as you suggested. I couldn't ask the previous owner if the grounding was done at the same time as the dual fuel or some other time because he was/is deceased.

The panel has state inspection stickers on it and no work has been done since that time so, again, I've always assumed it's legit.

skepace said:

Would this panel work?
http://www.lowes.com/pd_320889-1318...nel&pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=spa+panel&facetInfo=

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Probably. The panel itself is seldom the question. How to wire to existing non-grounding circuits is generally the topic of concern.

whoaru99 - you may be 100% right, I have no idea. I made a bold assumption that the setup wouldn't be code compliant as the conductors are split and don't share the same conduit/sheathing/anything. I know little to nothing about the actual letter of the code though, so maybe code doesn't care about it.

Hopefully we can get P-J who is up to date with code compliance to chime in but that could be an option. It looks like the dryer plug was installed not too long ago and the dryer outlet box is actually screwed to the side of the main panel so maybe there is a way to pigtail a ground. I move in 3 weeks and will have to check this all out.

whoaru99 said:

Probably. The panel itself is seldom the question. How to wire to existing non-grounding circuits is generally the topic of concern.

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Well I am going to have to run new wire from the circuit breaker to make this work. Going to run that first and then work on getting the panel.

ekjohns said:

It looks like the dryer plug was installed not too long ago and the dryer outlet box is actually screwed to the side of the main panel so maybe there is a way to pigtail a ground. I move in 3 weeks and will have to check this all out.

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If that's the case then all you should need to do is replace the 10-30 receptacle with a 14-30, get a couple feet of 10ga green or bare wire for connecting the main panel grounding bus to the grounding pole of the 14-30, and the 4-wire dryer cord and you should be set. $30, give or take, the bulk of that cost in the 14-30P dryer cord.

That is what I figured, but the real question is, is it compliant with NEC code?

Yes, if you're replacing the existing 10-30 receptacle with a 14-30 receptacle and adding the appropriate gauge grounding wire from the main panel grounding bus to the receptacle grounding pole it is completely NEC compliant.

This is with respect to the receptacle you mentioned that's attached to the main/breaker box, right? We're not talking any exposed grounding wires?

I could easily run the grounding wire through the same conduit already used for the 3 prong dryer outlet since it is only about 1-2 feet of wire. Therefore as long as the grounding wire is secured to the grounding bus in the breaker and to the L14-20 it should all me compliant?

Yup, should be. Maybe it's just a typo but typically they're 14-30, but I suppose could be 14-20 if that's all the dryer required for circuit size.

I am in a similar situation as the original post. I want to GFCI protect my dryer/brewery outlet, which is currently a 3 prong with no ground. I got an estimate from an electrician to install a GFCI breaker in the box, run the new 10/3 wire w/ ground to the outlet and convert it to a 4 prong, which was VERY expensive on the labor side. Has anyone tried the layout and had success, P-J described using the 3 wires in the existing outlet (hot hot neutral) running it to a spa panel, connecting the neutral to neutral inside, and then neutral to ground out, therefore accommodating a 4 prong GFCI protected receptacle? I'm thinking my electrician would steer me away from this since it is much cheaper and much more of a DIY project
any advice will help
Thanks

kresimo said:

I am in a similar situation as the original post. I want to GFCI protect my dryer/brewery outlet, which is currently a 3 prong with no ground. I got an estimate from an electrician to install a GFCI breaker in the box, run the new 10/3 wire w/ ground to the outlet and convert it to a 4 prong, which was VERY expensive on the labor side. Has anyone tried the layout and had success, P-J described using the 3 wires in the existing outlet (hot hot neutral) running it to a spa panel, connecting the neutral to neutral inside, and then neutral to ground out, therefore accommodating a 4 prong GFCI protected receptacle? I'm thinking my electrician would steer me away from this since it is much cheaper and much more of a DIY project
any advice will help
Thanks

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Here is what I have posted before, inspired by this and other threads:

Duck and cover, lol. First, these are my impressions given prior discussions and what I have been able to find. Second, I am not an electrician, but I am a reasonable logician. Third, my intent is to dispassionately look at the issues, not to attack anyone, and not to impugn anyone's character.

If you can run a dedicated ground from the main panel to the spa panel, or rewire with 4 wires from the main panel, then do it. That is a clean solution.

Now, if you are going to wire the spa panel with H-H-N in, bond the N and G to the spa panel chassis, run H-H-N-G out to the control panel, and wire both 120V and 240V in your control panel:

Will it work? Yes.

Does it conform to code? If you were to hardwire it as part of your house wiring, it does not conform to code, as the spa panel is not a grandfathered device that allows bonding N and G (more precisely, allows connecting the frame of the device to neutral, and using the neutral as the grounding conductor for that device). If you were to make the spa panel a "pluggable" device, you have not changed your house wiring, so you have not violated code with your house wiring. However, you have built a device (the spa panel) that does not qualify as grandfathered, and certainly violates the spirit of the code if not the letter.

Is it dangerous? Risk is relative. In a worst case scenario, say your control panel neutral comes loose and gets good contact with your control panel ground, and the GFCI in the spa panel fails, your spa panel chassis could be conducting 120V. If you were touching it and you were the shortest path to ground, then you would carry the current. This may be unlikely, but it is basically a variation of the scenario that led the NEC to change the code and require a dedicated ground wire. Incidentally, if you have a 3-wire dryer or range, the same scenario is possible if the neutral is compromised and you become the ground path. One could argue that these pose even more risk, because there is no GFCI protection to detect that the neutral is compromised and kill the power.

Understand the risks, and make your own decision. I would say you should really try to go with a dedicated ground. If you choose to use the 3-in, 4-out, spa panel solution, recognize that you are taking some risks that you can mitigate some by always testing that your GFCI is functioning, by putting the spa panel somewhere where neither you nor anyone else is likely to touch it while energized, and by neither selling, lending, nor giving the system to anyone else who does not understand the risks.

I sincerely hope that I succeeded in my attempt to discuss this issue in a balanced manner.

jeffmeh said:

...
I sincerely hope that I succeeded in my attempt to discuss this issue in a balanced manner.

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I really like your respose: However, I'd also like to talk out some issues that I see with your post.

If you care to do that PM me your 'stuff' and I'll call you.

Just saying.

Awesome answer Jeff. Thanks. The whole purpose of having the GFCI would be more worry free safety so cutting corners wouldnt be worth it. I'll have to get some better electrician estimates for putting in a dedicated breaker. He was padding himself for time I think (6 hours to put in a breaker, run 25 feet of wire, 9 of which is behind a wall, and installing a new receptacle)