Do you not have kettles over there?

I've been reading your forum for a few months now, mainly because there's not enough on the UK forums to keep me amused.
The control panels I've been looking at are fantastic, but one thing that confused me was the heating elements you use over there.
So I've just done a quick google and found this

http://hubpages.com/hub/Electric-Tea-Kettle-Review-The-7-Best-Cordless-Kettles-In-America

Is it true that you don't use electric kettles? Because over here doing it with gas is a rarity and most of us butcher cheap kettles for our elements.

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Produ...|14418476/c_2/2|14418476|Kettles|14418611.htm

Here's mine





Other than that you lot are miles ahead with your kit... keep up the good work!

I can't say that I've ever seen an electric tea kettle. I'm sure if I had a couple to tear apart I'd do it, but it's just as easy to just run to Lowe's hardware and pick up an $8-16 water heater element. Although the back of those look nice and I like the small compact size.

We dont drink that much tea on this side of the pond. Ive seen them though, i use to be a corrections officer and our inmates had them for making coffee as well as other things you dont want to know about.

I know those are 220v. How many watts are they and how fast do they heat your boil. Im sure we could only get 120V over here. Im about to go electric and am building a 220V 30Amp system with 5500watt element in my HLT and Boil kettle.



Rock Chalk

Chris

The elements I use are 2.4kw, 3 kw are also available. I've not timed them to the boil but it's boiling before I've finished sparging, I then turn off one element and can maintain the boil on the other. I also have 2 elements in my HLT, this I fill up from my domestic hot water, these will bring it up from tap (or faucet) temperature to strike temp in about 15 minutes.

...and we don't drink much tea in this house either, I've always been a coffee drinker!

Gas is common for appliances here. The electric is usually 120, unless it's a dryer or stove. Gas is also much cheaper than electricity.

Are those elements zinc plated?

I have an electric kettle that my brother bought me as a gift when he came for a visit once.. I know no one else with one though and have had friends ask what it is for

Few (well none really) of the electric kettles I have seen over here have an exposed coil like that. The one my wife has (which is used more for heating water for instant oatmeal than for tea) has a hot plate in the bottom sealed to the bottom of the case. I'm sure if I ripped it apart there would be exposed electrical connections on the bottom.

In short, while electric kettles exist, few would be as easily hackable as the ones you have access to.

Most of the kettles over here have those elements as well, it tends to be the budget kettles with this type. Bizarrely enough it's cheaper to buy the kettles to butcher than to buy elements on their own, by a factor of four!

And no, they're not zinc plated.

Yooper said:

Gas is also much cheaper than electricity.

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Nooo, not by a long shot.

Most propane AG brewers report getting about 4 5gal batches per 20 lb tank. At $18 per refill, that's $4.50 in gas per batch.

Assuming an hour to heat strike water, an hour to boil, and another hour heating for cleaning, etc, with a 3kW element, that's 9kWh used. Even at a high $0.15 / kWh, that's only $1.35 for a batch.

I cheat with the strike water and fill up my HLT from my kitchen hot water tap (faucet), I'm then up to temp in about 10-15 minutes.

keith1664 said:

I cheat with the strike water and fill up my HLT from my kitchen hot water tap (faucet), I'm then up to temp in about 10-15 minutes.

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Your still paying to heat that water too.

acefaser said:

Your still paying to heat that water too.

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Yup, but it's quick and 95% efficient!

jkarp said:

Nooo, not by a long shot.

Most propane AG brewers report getting about 4 5gal batches per 20 lb tank. At $18 per refill, that's $4.50 in gas per batch.

Assuming an hour to heat strike water, an hour to boil, and another hour heating for cleaning, etc, with a 3kW element, that's 9kWh used. Even at a high $0.15 / kWh, that's only $1.35 for a batch.

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I was referring to natural gas, which many of us have in our homes. Natural gas is very cheap, if you compare it to electric costs for the same appliance (hot water heater, stove, dryer).

I saw a documentary about power generation in the UK. I found it pretty funny that when the power plants had to be really on the ball for when a certain TV show ended, (soap opera type thing maybe? The Nooners? Downtowners? East Town? Eastsiders? can't remember the name, but apparently VERY popular over there), as when the credits rolled half of the country would put on the kettle for a cup of tea, and if the power plant wasn't ready they'd lose frequency sync.

So yeah, they aren't as popular here. Most of us drink coffee that has been sitting on a hot plate in a glass carafe for 2 hours already.

Yooper said:

I was referring to natural gas, which many of us have in our homes. Natural gas is very cheap, if you compare it to electric costs for the same appliance (hot water heater, stove, dryer).

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For appliances, sure. But for brewing (and I'm not aware of too many NG brewers), electric still comes out ahead due to the massive efficiency difference.

jkarp said:

Nooo, not by a long shot.

Most propane AG brewers report getting about 4 5gal batches per 20 lb tank. At $18 per refill, that's $4.50 in gas per batch

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Jeff, how do you get a 5 gallon or 20# fill when they added a shutoff fill float only allowing 3.5 to 3.6 gallon ot 14# to 14.4# fills?
At $19.95, with tax $21.90 with tax a bottle swap.
This comes to $6.255 a gallon.
Your propane usage of "about 4 5 gal batches per 20# tank" is down to about 14 gallons a bottle.
Add wind and low temps lower results will be had.

For Keith our "Teabag" friend across the pond propane vs electric heating.
Natural gas becomes affordable vs propane, just the $350 a month natural gas heating bill hurts.

BrewBeemer said:

Jeff, how do you get a 5 gallon or 20# fill when they added a shutoff fill float only allowing 3.5 to 3.6 gallon ot 14# to 14.4# fills?
At $19.95, with tax $21.90 with tax a bottle swap.
This comes to $6.255 a gallon.
Your propane usage of "about 4 5 gal batches per 20# tank" is down to about 14 gallons a bottle.
Add wind and low temps lower results will be had.

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I am aware. I was simply being conservative / generous to propane to make the point. Due to the inherent inefficiency of the gas burners homebrewers use, gas (of any flavor) is more expensive to brew with than electricity, regardless of what side of the pond you're on.

Why gas is so popular for brewing is as much a mystery to me as our English OP. Yooper did touch on a key point that Stateside our 240V options are limited, but the cost to run a dedicated outlet for brewing is recouped quickly at today's propane prices.

BrewBeemer said:

Jeff, how do you get a 5 gallon or 20# fill when they added a shutoff fill float only allowing 3.5 to 3.6 gallon ot 14# to 14.4# fills?
At $19.95, with tax $21.90 with tax a bottle swap.
This comes to $6.255 a gallon.
Your propane usage of "about 4 5 gal batches per 20# tank" is down to about 14 gallons a bottle.
Add wind and low temps lower results will be had.

For Keith our "Teabag" friend across the pond propane vs electric heating.
Natural gas becomes affordable vs propane, just the $350 a month natural gas heating bill hurts.

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You can fit more than that in a 20# tank. The float doesn't take up that much room. The exchange tanks I get at Menards are 17#. If I refill the tanks instead of exchanging, I get somewhere around 19#-20#.

shortyjacobs said:

You can fit more than that in a 20# tank. The float doesn't take up that much room. The exchange tanks I get at Menards are 17#. If I refill the tanks instead of exchanging, I get somewhere around 19#-20#.

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+1 to this. Just because Blue Rhino uses it as an excuse to only put 15# in their tanks does not mean that is the case.

jkarp said:

I am aware. I was simply being conservative / generous to propane to make the point. Due to the inherent inefficiency of the gas burners homebrewers use, gas (of any flavor) is more expensive to brew with than electricity, regardless of what side of the pond you're on.

Why gas is so popular for brewing is as much a mystery to me as our English OP. Yooper did touch on a key point that Stateside our 240V options are limited, but the cost to run a dedicated outlet for brewing is recouped quickly at today's propane prices.

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Also, my home only has like a 100A main breaker! My luck would be that the wife would be running the cloths dryer and a few burners on the stove at the same time I was trying to brew, then the AC would kick on.

Yooper said:

Gas is common for appliances here. The electric is usually 120, unless it's a dryer or stove. Gas is also much cheaper than electricity.

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Natural gas kicks my arse. It costs me a lot more money to keep my house warm in winter than it does to keep it cool in summer.

Electric tea kettles and such aren't as popular over here than on your side of the world, nor are Burco Coffee Urns, which I guess a lot of folks in England have modified to use in brewing.

There are actually a handful of threads about it scattered throughout here. I guess some homebrewers in England use something similar for indoor ag setups. I know there is at least 3 previous threads about it. I even think Scuba Steve was doing something with them. They are called Burcos in England.

Heres some info from previous discussions

Revvy said:

There's been a couple threads on here over the years about Burco Brewing. I hadn't heard of it, but I guess a lot of folks on your side of the pond have had some good results with those puppies.

I first heard about it in this thread. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/smallest-fastest-all-grain-rig-world-91914/

And this. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/coffee-urn-hlt-89901/

Seems like getting a couple of them and you could have a decent rig, especially if you got a couple of those 10 gallon sized urns.

In fact it looks like this homebrew supplier sells Burcos actually to the homebrewing community. http://www.brewuk.co.uk/store/index.php/ag-equipment/30ltr-burco-water-boiler.html

I googled Burco and Beer Brewing and found some more.

http://www.berriman.me.uk/?Martin's_Homebrew:How_I_Brew_Beer

http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4641&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

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Orfy said:

Thanks Revvy.

Lots of brewers use them in the UK.

This mainly stems from the lack of decent burners available the UK does not have turkey fryers or banjo burners.

I'm not looking replace my main outdoor system. I'm just thinking of doing indoor batches in the winter. I was just playing with it to see how it did.
The problem with these things is that they are cheap commercial items using low quality electronics.

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The berriman link "How I brew beer" has a pretty detailed set of picutres of his setup using one as a mlt and one as a boiler. It's freaking amazing!!!! I like his stovetop counterflow chiller rig.

camiller said:

+1 to this. Just because Blue Rhino uses it as an excuse to only put 15# in their tanks does not mean that is the case.

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Chris, Blue Ripoff in my area no way around it unless I traveled they have the area sewed up.
When the expansion space fill limiting valve came about I collected many old valve 20# curbside finds.
A friends place for refills off a 500 gallon tank for full 20# plus refills.
These older tanks and valves work great with high flow demand equipment without the flow limiting valve activating. Refillable 14 oz propane bottles with the manufactured fill adapter of years ago for camping plus the 1.2 gallon bottle.

Not sure how big of a sandy paradise your on but around here, while blue rhino has expanded to a lot of places you would not have been able to get propane at before and Amerigas sprang up to compete with them, the old places that did fills generally still do and one local gas station chain still installs filling equipment at their new locations, although they are not really any cheaper than Blue Rhino. Around here, U-haul locations are the cheapest although I haven't checked any RV places.

Yes Revvy, the Burco tea urns and their like are also frequently converted for brewing, using the kettle elements I've mentioned in various forms of plastic bucket is also very popular (well you have to get your danger fix somewhere!)

Like somebody mentioned earlier, we don't tend to fry turkeys over here so don't have that option. Also standing outside in the cold and rain isn't fun, hence gas isn't so popular over here.

To each their own. I suppose you won't ever know the thrill of standing out in 0F degree weather with the snow flying past you face as you shiver. Just to make a batch of beer...

In reality, I went propane because a turkey fryer was readily available and cheap considering I get a working burner AND a kettle in one shot.

Now I want to go electric. It's cheaper, and quieter. I can still use my propane burner later if I want to go places and brew, but electricity has definite advantages. AND, if I combine gas and electric, I can get the water to boiling faster, and then keep it rolling with a very cheap control unit on electricity for some $ savings.

I'm pretty sure I could improve my gas burner's efficiency, and going to Natural Gas would save even more, but there IS the inherent inefficiency built into the common gas burners used for brewing over here. They just haven't been designed to use their BTUs wisely.

camiller said:

Not sure how big of a sandy paradise your on but around here, while blue rhino has expanded to a lot of places you would not have been able to get propane at before and Amerigas sprang up to compete with them, the old places that did fills generally still do and one local gas station chain still installs filling equipment at their new locations, although they are not really any cheaper than Blue Rhino. Around here, U-haul locations are the cheapest although I haven't checked any RV places.

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We have a local U-haul, between the locals and EPA his prices are $24.95 a refill that will increase by $4 soon. Regulations and hassles will end propane sales.
Natural gas, electricity, water and coconuts are available.

I have two electric kettles. One has elements in a similar configuration to what you have in your kettle, the other has the coils hidden inside a plate, but it is all 120. I contemplated salvaging the heating element and using it for converting to electric. Since the electric kettles are much less popular here, buying a water heater element is cheaper than buying an electric kettle and hacking it apart.