Is there a downside to over-shooting your starter?

I've been reading into methods to really improve the quality of my homebrews as I move away from the cheaper "learn how to brew" kits and one of the big things were starters. I read this really nice article about making starters/URL] as well as a couple stickies on the forums.

My question is if there is a downside to possibly overshooting your cell count by making too large of a starter. I'm making a baltic porter which is projected to be over 10% ABV. So I'm planning on doing a 1.5 liter starter for a 5 gallon batch. I want the yeast to have it easy at first, especially if they're going to be reaching over the 9% mark. Also, I am getting my supplies on Saturday, but will be making the starter on Friday. Should I subtract the DME that I use in the starter from the recipe when I add my DME, or should I just do the normal amount plus the starter?

For those interested, I am using wyeast 2206.

Also, could someone explain how people estimate the number of yeast cells they have? I'm aiming for ~200 billion.

Use either the Mr. Malty calculator, or the YeastCalc calculator (I think YeastCalc is still down, but if you search the forum you'll find someone was able to recreate it).

You'll probably find that you won't have nearly enough yeast for that Baltic Porter, especially if you're going the lager route as is commonly done.

To answer your question though, in most cases you'll be better off overpitching than under pitching. The accepted rule is 0.75 million cells per milliliter per degree Plato for ales, and 1.5 million cells per milliliter per degree Plato for lagers.

The exceptions are for beers driven by yeast character (Belgian beers, English beers, and especially German Weizen beers). In those, overpitching by too large a margin will reduce the esters that you want in those styles. This is kind of debatable, but I'm in the camp that prefers a controlled underpitch with those styles (although many disagree with that stance). However, you still need to make sure you're pitching enough.

Qhrumphf said:

Use either the Mr. Malty calculator, or the YeastCalc calculator (I think YeastCalc is still down, but if you search the forum you'll find someone was able to recreate it).

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http://www.yeastcalculator.com :fro:

What do you mean that I won't have enough yeast? I just read this article and the quick and dirty TL;DR was that there is an exact amount of yeast based of degrees plato.

How are you supposed to get to the correct number of yeast cells in your starter if the number you need is based off of the starting gravity of your wort? How would I account for the apparent high amounts of yeast needed for my Baltic?

This is all very interesting!

I would HIGHLY recommend picking up this book. It's written by Jamil and Chris White. It will explain everything about yeast, period.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0937381969/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

What is your expected OG? For a 10% beer that would qualify as a Baltic Porter, I'm assuming you're looking at 1.090 plus. For that, you'll need a minimum of 305 billion viable cells. If your smack pack was manufactured THE DAY you make your starter (which doesn't happen), you'll have 100 billion viable cells. In reality (and my experience) after shipping and inventory time at the LHBS, it's a couple weeks to a month old, and it usually ends up 75% to 85% viable, or 750-850 million cells per pack. Unless you're pitching multiple packs into that starter, or making a bigger starter, you'll need more than 1.5 liters to achieved the right growth. Mr. Malty gives you about 2 liters if as fresh as possible (2.6 liters using a guessimated realistic age I usually get), and that's ONLY on a stir plate. If you're doing the shaking method, it jumps up to 3 liters with the freshest possible yeast (4 liters at a realistic age).

And this is ONLY if you're using an ale yeast at ale temps. If you're doing a lager yeast at lager temps (the way most Baltic Porters are done), you'll need double the cell count from that, and an even bigger starter. You say you're using 2206 Bavarian lager. So you will not be even close with a 1.5 liter starter.

To answer your question though: Use one of the calculators. The Yeast Calc new site was graciously posted by someone else. Mr. Malty is here: http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

Configure it however you need to to achieve the proper lager pitching rate. If you lack a stir plate or a large enough vessel (this may be worth making in a carboy if you have to shake it, since you're looking at an ~8 liter starter), then it may be easiest just to pitch multiple packs of yeast (even with an 8 liter shaken starter, you'll still need two packs, as you're reaching the maximum growth level of the yeast otherwise).

OK, so the limiting factor for these high ABV beers is obviously the prohibitive cost of the yeast kits, especially with the 2206 being around $7 per 100 billion cells (quick google). So the beer we are making actually has an OG 1.1. I looked at Mr. Malty and set our settings to 1.1 OG, 5 gallon batch, 80% viability. Using intermittent shaking we need 5.72 liters of starter and 3 yeast packs or 9.73 liters of starter with 2 yeast packs. I have a few questions regarding this:

1. Is there a downside to doing 2 packs in a larger starter? What is the difference between using a smaller starter and more starting yeast? Does it take more time?

2. Say we did the 2 packs in a large starter. I read that to make a ~1.020 OG starter we use about 2 oz of DME in a final liquid volume (before adding yeast) of 800 mL. This was taken as a direct quote from here. So that would mean we would use 24.325oz of DME and 9.73 liters of water (or 2.562 gallons). Would this affect the amount of DME and water we use for brewing? I would assume that the remaining water for the total brew (2.438 gallons) would be brewed with all the DME that came with the kit. So the DME we use for the starter is extra?

Number two is a huge question, because it sounds like our wort is going to be a syrup before we add a starter that is half of the total brew.

The difference between using 2 packs and larger starter vs. 3 packs and smaller starter is primarily cost. In this case, it'll be much easier to eat the cost and use more yeast, especially with the volume of starter than you'll need and the cost of DME associated.

The general rule is 100 grams of DME per liter of starter. A 1.020 starter will be easier on the yeast, but you will not get optimal growth at that level. Alternatively, anything above 1.040 will grow more, but stress the yeast, which you DON'T want in a starter. The 100 grams DME per liter of starter should net you right around that optimum 1.032-1.035 range, if I recall correctly.

And lastly, do you have a fridge where you can cold crash the starter?

If so, make your starter a week ahead of time. Give it 48-72 hours of intermittent shaking at room temperature. Then stick it in the fridge, and leave it there until brew day. That will push all the yeast to the bottom. On brew day, carefully decant off as much of the spent starter as you can, leaving just a little of it behind, with all of the yeast. Let it warm back up a bit while you brew. Then when you're done brewing, swirl it up to break up the yeast back into a slurry, and pitch. That way you're pitching mostly yeast, and the impact on your beer will be greatly reduced.

I try to avoid adding an entire starter whenever I can, and if it's more than 1.5L, I will not add a whole starter, only cold crash and decant. There's different theories here as to whether or not that's the best way, but aerating a starter will still cause oxidative flavors within the starter itself (and other potential off flavors) and the larger a starter you add to a beer, the more pronounced they can become. Remember that with a starter, the goal is not good tasting starter beer, it's maximizing the amount of healthy yeast.

Point being, if you don't have the ability to cold crash a starter that large, I wouldn't pitch the whole thing into the beer. I would recommend that you instead brew a sessionable lager first that'll require a much smaller starter (American Light Lager would be a good candidate for a number of reasons) . Ferment that out, and then use Mr. Malty's numbers for harvesting yeast slurry, and repitch from the yeast cake. With lager pitching rates, and the gravity you're going to, it might be one of those few instances where it's a good idea to pitch directly onto a yeast cake.

You need a large starter. The easiest and most cost effective way is to make a low-med gravity beer. Make a batch of something@ ~ 1.040 with low hopping. The batch size should be based on your cell count needs. I would make a five gallon batch and remove excess slurry. The excess can be added to the low grav to clean it up. Make it the weekend before and pitch the high grav onto the slurry. All your processes must be clean. Work next to a flame to lift particles away from the beer. Keep containers open no longer than needed. I use star San in a spray bottle like I'm at a water park.

I use a mask to reduce the bacteria in the air. The ones with a valve are useless.

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How cold can the starter get? Because my fridge might fit it, but I have an entryway that gets to fridge temperatures. I think we'll go for a lighter beer this round. It's my sixth beer, but my first big beer that really took a lot of planning. Thank you for all the help, though. I'm seriously astounded by how much I learned today.

I think we're going to go with this http://www.boomchugalug.com/product/muckamucka-mocha-coffee-porter/

A nice medium of easier, cheaper and an extra step of including our own coffee

If your going to cold crash and decant you're starter then you can use higher temps than fermentation. If you want to dump the starter into the batch while active you will need to use proper fermentation temps and plan all other ingredients to be diluted by the starter.

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Edit

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You could also consider using an ale yeast for the beer instead of a lager yeast. Baltic Porters are usually made with lager yeast, but ale yeast is workable. It'll cut the starter size down dramatically, as well as make fermentation much easier to deal with.

Even then, for your 6th beer a Baltic Porter even with ale yeast is a huge undertaking. My 2nd batch I got overly ambitious, tried to make a Quadrupel, and ended up having to dump it. That was years ago, but I still remember that "rocket fuel" taste it had.

You'll probably have much greater success with that second beer.

Best of luck!

BigFloyd said:

Doing a 10% ABV Baltic Porter using lager yeast (like 2206) is a huge undertaking as well as a long-term project.

Your going to need to:

1) Have a massive yeast count (836 billion cells assuming 1.100 OG, 5.2 gallon batch, 2.0 high gravity lager pitch rate), http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

2) Chill the wort to 45*F and oxygenate the heck out of it (preferably with pure O2),

2) Maintain a consistent fermentation temp in the upper 40's followed by a 62-64*F diacetyl rest once it hits 75-80% of expected FG,

3) Long-term lagering (I'd go 4-6 months in the mid-30's)

There is a much easier (and better) way to get all of the yeast you need without churning up the massive starter required. If you are really determined to tackle this, I'd strongly suggest that you first brew a 5-gallon batch of lower gravity "starter beer" like a Helles or a Dunkel using 2206. Once it's done, you'll have a lovely yeast cake sitting there waiting for your Baltic wort. You can either pitch directly on top of the whole thing (one of the rare occasions where a whole cake is perfect to use) or harvest the whole cake and pitch on the Baltic in a clean fermenter.

Also, during the months of waiting for your Baltic Porter to get ready, you'll have a nice Helles or Dunkel to enjoy.

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Is this one of the few times it's OK to pitch onto a yeast cake? Sounds like I'll be attempting a baltic porter around this time next year.

Paradigm said:

How cold can the starter get? Because my fridge might fit it, but I have an entryway that gets to fridge temperatures. I think we'll go for a lighter beer this round. It's my sixth beer, but my first big beer that really took a lot of planning. Thank you for all the help, though. I'm seriously astounded by how much I learned today.

I think we're going to go with this http://www.boomchugalug.com/product/muckamucka-mocha-coffee-porter/

A nice medium of easier, cheaper and an extra step of including our own coffee

Click to expand...

If you're going to go that route (which is a delightful brew, I have a coffee porter on tap right now and love it), a couple of things that will help.

1.066 OG needs a starter if using liquid yeast. If you go with the dry option, one packet of S-04 rehydrated is plenty of cells. I used S-04 on my current porter (spur of the moment batch, no time for starter) and would be happy to use it again.

If the kit instructions tell you to put the coffee in the boil, wad them up and toss them in the trash. Boiling the coffee will give you an unpleasant flavor like coffee that was brewed at 6am and has been sitting on the warmer until 3pm - yuk. The best way to add coffee to a beer is to cold brew it overnight and then add it at the time you keg/bottle. I used 4oz of course ground dark roast in mine, cold brewed at room temp in a french press and the coffee character turned out just right, very mellow and not bitter.

Paradigm said:

Is this one of the few times it's OK to pitch onto a yeast cake? Sounds like I'll be attempting a baltic porter around this time next year.

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A 1.100 lager is one of the few times that it's fine to pitch on a WHOLE yeast cake without removing any portion of it to avoid over-pitching. That big of a lager needs lots of yeast.

cjgenever said:

The easiest and most cost effective way is to make a low-med gravity beer. Make a batch of something@ ~ 1.040 with low hopping. The batch size should be based on your cell count needs.

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This is exactly how I would do it. It is most definitely cost effective especially considering you get to drink it in the end- 2.5 gal starter becomes a case of beer.