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Can I culture yeast from Juniper Berries?

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With good technique, one can isolate single colonies on one streak plate

I know that this is widely believed here, but after many thousands of subcultured plates in my academic life, I really doubt it's true. In my experience (and in "the conventional view" of it within microbiology), the yeast cells are reliably filthy with thousands of bacteria. It may not be visible without a microscope, or grow voraciously on the plate, but they've always been there when I looked (and, more distressingly, used the culture later). It is not surprising, in the end -- S. cervisiae is (very roughtly) fifty times bigger than bacteria, and bacteria are overwhelmingly more common, by a few orders of magnitude. Given enough diligence, and extremely good sterile technique there's no reason you couldn't manage it eventually, but it would be enormously time consuming and difficult. It's not as though it would amount to streaking the wort across the plate and grabbing a promising colony -- you'd need to do this hundreds of times before you managed to get a colony free of bacteria. (Much easier just to use antibiotic agar, in my eyes.)

It is not necessary that I convince anyone, though.

or use Hansen's pure culture technique. Then pick some of the single colonies onto secondary plates and test some. If one performs as desired, then keep it.

Certainly. But note that I originally said that there was no easy way to do it. Serial dilution subculturing is not easy by anyone's standards, even ignoring the difficulty of keeping hundreds of cultures sterile without access to a lab.
 
(Much easier just to use antibiotic agar, in my eyes.)
True, but folks got this type of thing done before antibiotics and even the use of agar. Again, a part of that is just that, according to Guinard, yeast dominate the microflora from two weeks to a couple of months. I'd bet it's pretty reasonable to try it at that time vs. any other. Likely though if I were to do it, I'd follow your advice and plate on YPD supplemented with carbenicillin.

This thread got me to look at Hansen's book on google books. It's fun to read, his style reads pretty well. One of the links from that page showed somebody's reprinting it for less than $20; it's tempting, paper copies being so retro and all. :)
 
True, but folks got this type of thing done before antibiotics and even the use of agar. Again, a part of that is just that, according to Guinard, yeast dominate the microflora from two weeks to a couple of months. I'd bet it's pretty reasonable to try it at that time vs. any other. Likely though if I were to do it, I'd follow your advice and plate on YPD supplemented with carbenicillin.

They did, yes, but it wasn't easy. It was fantastically difficult, which is why we both know the name of the first guy who managed it.

Carbenicillin probably wouldn't be a good choice for home use. It's heat labile, and wouldn't survive pressure cooking. (In the lab it's added to agar after it's been sterilized, under a laminar flowhood using a filter to sterilize the carbenicillin.) Gentamicin would probably be the best option. It's much more heat tolerant than any other common antibiotic. I know from personal experience (read "impatience in the lab one day") that tetracyclin is also less sensitive than its manufacturers would have you believe, and works well enough after fifteen minutes in the autoclave. Some bacteria still grow on it afterward, but it's rare enough that it's not a huge problem.
 
(In the lab it's added to agar after it's been sterilized, under a laminar flowhood using a filter to sterilize the carbenicillin.)
Yep, I used to do it all the time for LB and usually didn't bother with the hood. (In a relatively clean environment, I can pour antibiotic free rich media without contamination on the bench.) But now we just buy our plates from Teknova. It still feels like cheating sometimes, but it's nice just to walk to a cold room full of plates and media and grab some.

FWIW, I think if we want to continue this discussion, it's probably best to start a new thread. Or is it not off topic?
 
Just a quick update;
We brewed up a sweet stout yesterday and used some 2nd gen washed yeast from the 80/ brew, it is rocking this morning. 68F.
4920296142_7e04dcb4ca_b.jpg


Used fermcap on this one so it may not have much krausen.
4919697541_4eb25e68df_b.jpg


Keep on yeasting my friends:mug:
 
QUOTE "What? Are you fermenting in cave!?!"

The picutre reminds me of Silence of the Lambs - shiver...

Awesome thread and experiment though - hats off to you.
 
Quote"The picture reminds me of Silence of the Lambs - shiver..."

Ha ha ....It puts the yeast in the carboy....
 
A cave, I love it!
I am very curious now. I want to try the juniper berries but I am also looking at the venrable Oregon Grape! The fruit is very tart but they have a lot of "white stuff" on them and there are a lot of them around!

After doing a little reading I was wondering if a 10-15 minute soak in straight lemon juice followed by a rinse in sterile water would remove a large amount of bacteria?

I am aware that a lot of common bacteria do not do well in a low PH environment nor do they tolerate dramatic changes in PH. Most yeast do not seem to be affected by a low PH environment and should remain!

Any thoughts?
 
What? Are you fermenting in cave!?!
Looks like some of the crawl spaces I've seen in NC. :)
I am aware that a lot of common bacteria do not do well in a low PH environment nor do they tolerate dramatic changes in PH. Most yeast do not seem to be affected by a low PH environment and should remain!
Kevin, that's one of the reasons fermentation selects for yeast, there's a drop in pH. Also, acid washing is something pro brewers do.
 
what you are saying is true in theory, but in practice colo brewed 4 beers with a juniper berry! so whats is the point?
it can be done and easly .
i do it every year, i brew wild cider with apples from my trees.
and the conditions in an agar plate are nothing like a fermenter unless you greatly lower ther ph of the agar and seal the dish so that it is anaerobic, thoes two things make a HUGE difference in what grows and at what speed, that plus controlling the temp ( keeping it low for the first few starters) and you can can take lactobacillus out of play too

I know that this is widely believed here, but after many thousands of subcultured plates in my academic life, I really doubt it's true. In my experience (and in "the conventional view" of it within microbiology), the yeast cells are reliably filthy with thousands of bacteria. It may not be visible without a microscope, or grow voraciously on the plate, but they've always been there when I looked (and, more distressingly, used the culture later). It is not surprising, in the end -- S. cervisiae is (very roughtly) fifty times bigger than bacteria, and bacteria are overwhelmingly more common, by a few orders of magnitude. Given enough diligence, and extremely good sterile technique there's no reason you couldn't manage it eventually, but it would be enormously time consuming and difficult. It's not as though it would amount to streaking the wort across the plate and grabbing a promising colony -- you'd need to do this hundreds of times before you managed to get a colony free of bacteria. (Much easier just to use antibiotic agar, in my eyes.)

It is not necessary that I convince anyone, though.



Certainly. But note that I originally said that there was no easy way to do it. Serial dilution subculturing is not easy by anyone's standards, even ignoring the difficulty of keeping hundreds of cultures sterile without access to a lab.
 
I stepped up the 250ml juniper berry starter to a 2L starter (in a 4L flask). That spun for a few days, then I chilled it, and you can see the nice 1/2" of yeast that grew off those berries!

Decanted and pitched into a 1.040 wort that I party-gyled off a 12g batch of IPA. Pic below is that beer after 2 days. Nice full krausen on it. Actually this beer was going strong about 12 hours after pitching.

2L_Juniper_Starter.JPG
Juniper_Ale_-_Day_2.JPG
 
I stepped up the 250ml juniper berry starter to a 2L starter (in a 4L flask). That spun for a few days, then I chilled it, and you can see the nice 1/2" of yeast that grew off those berries!

Decanted and pitched into a 1.040 wort that I party-gyled off a 12g batch of IPA. Pic below is that beer after 2 days. Nice full krausen on it. Actually this beer was going strong about 12 hours after pitching.

That is awesome, I was wondering if this was a one time fluke or if it was going to be repeatable. I guess that answers that.

Keep us up to date on this IPA, I'd like to know how the yeast performs for you, it appears you have a nice strong fermentation going. What temperature is it at?:rockin:

I don't have much else to report on my dealings with it right now, the sweet stout is about done in primary and I will rack it soon to get at the yeast there for more testing. Haven't racked the cherry wine yet, and tasted a bottle of the scottish this weekend, it seems to be holding up.

I've been reading up a little, just some interesting stuff, I noticed while reading back through Hieronymus' "brew like a monk" that Duvel used one strain of appx. 10 - 20 strains isolated from a bottle of McEwans scotch ale after world war one. I'm not sure what this has to do with me, just thought it was interesting, and the fact that I will probably start isolating/separating yeasts from this stuff, assuming it will need it? For instance, top cropping for ale, cold fermenting for lager, hot fermenting for saison, wheat fermenting for wheat? etc, etc,

Keep on yeasting my friends:mug:
 
I'm really excited about this topic. Being in Oklahoma where the Easter Red Cedar is an infectious, rampant pest, it is easy for me to just walk into my backyard for a fresh sample. Do you know the variety of the berries you chose?

Colo, I'm going back to Golden two weeks from now for a friend's wedding. You fancy visitors wherever you are? This looks worth a trip to see your setup!

~William
 
. . . . Do you know the variety of the berries you chose?

Colo, I'm going back to Golden two weeks from now for a friend's wedding. You fancy visitors wherever you are? This looks worth a trip to see your setup!

~William

Mine are either Utah juniper (Juniperus osteosperma) or Rocky Mountain juniper (Juniperus scopulorum) I speculate the later due to smaller berries, but am unsure.

You'd be more than welcome to come by, I work shift work and I'll be off shooting wapiti in the lips with my muzzleloader and snagging salmon through the vital inards from 09/11 through 09/19. I am on the western slope in Montrose county and I always have some sort of gruel to share and savor.:rockin:
 
My Juniper Ale fermentation went gangbusters and now, 6 days later, has fully attenuated.

OG: 1.042
FG: 1.005

I am picking up the slightest clove taste from this yeast. That's a big surprise. I think for novelty sake I'll take some more juniper (from same bush), toast and grind, and make a tea and add to this beer. Juniper Ale.

COLObrewer, thank you so much for pushing me to try this. Very cool.
 
My Juniper Ale fermentation went gangbusters and now, 6 days later, has fully attenuated.

OG: 1.042
FG: 1.005

I am picking up the slightest clove taste from this yeast. That's a big surprise. I think for novelty sake I'll take some more juniper (from same bush), toast and grind, and make a tea and add to this beer. Juniper Ale. .

That is awesome, I'm glad it worked out. Was that close to your expected FG? How did it flocculate?

Our sweet stout seems to be taking a while with the second gen. yeast.
 
How did it flocculate?

The sample I took had some yeast cloudiness, so I'd say it is does not floc well. I'll be cold-crashing it with a lager tomorrow, so I am sure that will drop the yeast out. I'll also gelatin it. I'm sure I'll get it clear.

Again, I got a bit of cloves which was a pleasant surprise. No reason to think we have the same yeast strain (you and I).

This whole idea is fun, but fits more into Mother Earth News or the excellent Firefox survival books more than this forum of anal beer brewers. I might try one more beer on top of the yeast cake, but then I probably won't do it again, but I'm glad I did it this time!
 
Good enough for a wheat yeast?

Dunno. 6-day old beer. I'll reserve judgement until it is a bottle of conditioned beer. As I'm sure you're aware, some of these flavors go away as the yeast continues to clean up the intermediate products created during early fermentation.

It was a smaller but similar flavor to I get with 3068. I'll get another taste in a couple of weeks when I'm done lagering another beer in there. Then I'll bottle: 2 weeks there. I'll do a full review in one month. I'm not expecting much, but if it makes beer then that's cool.
 
. . . . This whole idea is fun, but fits more into Mother Earth News or the excellent Firefox survival books more than this forum of anal beer brewers. . . . .

I understand what you're saying, I on the other hand do this simply to see if I can. I will probably keep doing it to see what the limits are and see what it is best suited for. It also keeps me from getting too anal myself, I am into the whole self sufficient idea and I have a long ways to go.:mug:
 
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