What would you do if your local Brewery did this to you???

Reposted from what was worded very well by my club President:


WTF Commercial Brewers?

Looking for some perspective:

A local commercial brewer entered into a contractual talk with a homebrewer to have a homebrewer brew up 2 BBL's of one of his famous recipes.

Homebrewer would brew it, keg it, and bring it to the brewery. All that in mind, homebrewer offered a price and recipe list. Commercial Brewer turned it down, saying "Too Expensive."

Homebrewer says "Let's Talk." Commercial Brewer says "Forget it."

A few weeks later, Commercial Brewer announces it's new beer. Same beer, homebrewer's recipe.

Now the recipe is a public thing on the club's website, so Commercial Brewer can say they got it there, but still. Legal rammifications aside, taking a homebrewer's recipe and brewing a commercial batch is one thing, but doing it after contract brewing talks fell apart is extremely UNCOOL.

Also, commercial brewer has stated that it is made from a homebrewer's recipe, and identified the brewer. Normally, this would be an honor, but it's rubbing people the wrong way.

We normally have our club meetings at Commercial Brewery, but we will probably shift support to another one, and convene at a different location.

We have not approached Commercial Brewery about their UNCOOLNESS yet, as they are ex-homebrewers from our club. Difficult.

So, here's the question: "What would you do?"

Ouch, that is a double edged sword there. On one end of it I would be Pi**ed that they did that but on the other it's awesome that my recipe is something one of the "bigger boys" wants to brew.

I guess I would at least ask for free beer, kinda like royalties.

If they had contract talks and they fell through and they brewed the recipe, sue the snot out of them.

Option 1: suck it up. By posting the recipe online, it's in the public domain, and anyone can use it.

Option 2: Publicize it. Call the local media and tell them what happened. Make the brewery publicly apologize, and make them put your name on the beer. See if you can get your brewery name on the bottle as well.

B

Doesn't seem like there is much you can do aside from not having your meetings there anymore. I had a much similar incident with a local brewer and since then I have ceased to patronize thier establishment. Between that and word of mouth I know of a handful of people who have stopped going there as well. I would be extremely upset knowing that the commercial brewer was not only a homebrewer at one time but also a member of your club. That would really get my goat.

First of all, unless the homwbrewer was licensed this is illegal as hell since the OP clearly states that the HBer is brewing it at home, kegging it, and bringing it to the brewery. That is clearly manufacture and distribution by an unlicensed person. Secondly,sue them for what? Brewing a recipe they found on the internet? If it is so world famous and valuable, don't post it on the internet!

Recipes can be patented and are indeed intellectual property. However, the minute you apply for a patent the recipe becomes public. Hence the reason Coke or KFC have never patented their recipes. Since you or the club made your recipe public there is not much you can do to recoup any financial gains from the brewery. However waging a negative public relations campaign against the brewery my lead them to at least credit you for the recipe. If you should get any interest from the local media make sure you explain to them you were in negotiations to brew the beer before they took your recipe. Frame it as a David Vs. Goliath issue.

riverfrontbrewer said:

First of all, unless the homwbrewer was licensed this is illegal as hell since the OP clearly states that the HBer is brewing it at home, kegging it, and bringing it to the brewery. That is clearly manufacture and distribution by an unlicensed person.

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My first thought as well. This business is tightly regulated, and selling homebrew is still illegal. Even if sold by a legal entity, etc.

And extremely dirty pool, but I think all you can do is call them a dick and move on.

bad coffee said:

Option 1: suck it up. By posting the recipe online, it's in the public domain, and anyone can use it.

Option 2: Publicize it. Call the local media and tell them what happened. Make the brewery publicly apologize, and make them put your name on the beer. See if you can get your brewery name on the bottle as well.

B

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That's the thing... its not just the name of my beer, its also MY NAME. Like So-and-so's Bloody IPA. Problem is I had nothing to do with it.

riverfrontbrewer said:

First of all, unless the homwbrewer was licensed this is illegal as hell since the OP clearly states that the HBer is brewing it at home, kegging it, and bringing it to the brewery. That is clearly manufacture and distribution by an unlicensed person. Secondly,sue them for what? Brewing a recipe they found on the internet? If it is so world famous and valuable, don't post it on the internet!

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The beer was actually to be brewed (fermented) at the commercial location, which is 25 miles or so from where it would be mashed and boiled.

That makes little sense when combined w your first post

Just because you published it publicly doesn't mean you gave up rights to it. If I take a picture and post it on the internet it is still legally my picture. No one can legally do anything with it without my permission. That recipe is your property. It doesn't matter where they got the recipe, they're using it without your permission and without compensation. The fact your name is used as well gives you even more recourse. You definitely have a case.

riverfrontbrewer said:

That makes little sense when combined w your first post

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It was to be kegged (sankey keg primary fermenters) then transported, then the yeast was to be pitched at the licensed location. I did not write the original post. But the specifics of all this was still being discussed.

Still thinking about this.. letting my initial reactions lager overnight..

Dan-

It is a different recipe when they used their water instead of his.....or 1 oz less of 2 row, or boiled for 1 second longer/shorter, or dozens of other miniscule items throughout the brewing process.

If this story is true as told I would agree, poor form by the brewery, but there is no viable legal action.

Budzu said:

Also, commercial brewer has stated that it is made from a homebrewer's recipe, and identified the brewer. Normally, this would be an honor, but it's rubbing people the wrong way.

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Foremost, was there an agreement in writing? Did you/whoever give permission to the brewery to let them use your name/credentials? Even if they used your recipe without giving whomever due credit, it doesn't matter - since the recipe was posted in the public domain by consent, legally it's a non-issue. Also, recipes/lists of ingredients are not subject to copywrite.

However, if they put your/whomever's name on the label/market the product as related to whomever, that is not kosher and you have a case so long as you did not give them permission.

Budzu said:

"What would you do?"

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Find yourself a lawyer (preferably a young one recently out of lawschool (they're everywhere, check your local unemployment office ) and see if you have a case....though you probably don't, sorry to say. There is no money to be made. But you can complain and threaten a lawsuit until you get what you want out of em.

I agree, unless there was a written/signed contract between brewery and homebrewer, there is no leg to stand on legally. Just boycott the brewery and word will spread about his unorthodox treatment of patrons and fellow homebrewers.

Pretty awful greedy unethical behavior. I would do this: buy an add in the local paper - a big add - and tell the story. People respond to such injustices. See where is goes from there. You have witnesses of course and you must have some documentation. Moreover the brewer *knows* this is unethical. Better still contact your local newspaper and tell them the story and let them publish it.

It is my belief that the majority of the population respond to injustice, tend towards ethical and fair behavior, and vouch for the little guy, but you have to let them know so that they can be outraged as you are. And this is pretty clearly outrageous.

Let us know how it progresses. Good luck!

i work on honor. they say they'll use that recipe, and then they piss on you, i'd be mad as hell

We have not approached Commercial Brewery

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Uh, am I the only one here who thinks the best thing to do would be to talk to the brewery?

Why make enemies over an issue that can be easily resolved?


Also, IANAL but this is my basic understanding as a photographer:

While posting something on the internet does NOT put it in the public domain or give ANYONE the right to use it, especially for commercial purposes, recipes are in a bit of a league of their own. Since there are only so many ingredients and so man procedures any slight change means it is a new recipe. This could include scaling the recipe up to their system.

bierhaus15 said:

However, if they put your/whomever's name on the label/market the product as related to whomever, that is not kosher and you have a case so long as you did not give them permission.

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This is correct. From what you've said, your only recourse would be if they are using your name or likeness for commercial purposes without permission.

Was it a very complex recipe? Most accomplished brewers can reverse engineer a beer with a little work.

I agree with publish the recipe, name the brewery and the beer.

What brewery in Tennessee was this BTW?

The first thing I would do is contact the local news paper. I'm sure there's some young reporter that would love to get this story.

Your not going to get anywhere with suing. Even if you did win a law suite, and got a judgment, and lien on their assets your not going to get anything. With the kind of business practices there using they won't be in business long and you will be at the end of the line.

The best thing you can do is get some local media attention and try to truthfully destroy their reputation. After that you could open your own pub and bury them. Apparently you recipes are better.

Budzu said:

We have not approached Commercial Brewery about their UNCOOLNESS yet, as they are ex-homebrewers from our club. Difficult.

So, here's the question: "What would you do?"

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I would approach the brewery...duh.

Its easy to sit back, act helpless and ***** about the problem, but its not going to get anything done.

I hate how people just assume the best course of action is to sue.

Lets look at pros and cons:

What will you get from a lawsuit- lose a ton of money to courts and laywers with a case with no merit to begin with. Maybe cause a minor blemish in their reputation.

Newspaper-chance of nothing getting published...if it does you could cause a little harm. You also kiss any chance whatsoever of getting recognition/compensation for your recipe for publicly trashing them without contacting the brewery first.

Talk to the brewery- you stand the chance at facing a middle finger, or you have the chance to rectify it. Either way it shows you have balls and won't tolerate their ******** instead of finding every non-confrontational option to have anyone but yourself fight your battle.

I agree the situation sucks and the brewery is a piece of ****, but the way you handle it will say a lot too

I'd approach the brewery first, and voice your issues with the problem at hand. Depending on their answer and actions, you'll have a couple options. Either they realize their mistake and make it right, or they tell you to pound sand, and you take it to the media. The media loves a good battle between the little guy and the big guy, so it shouldn't be too hard to garner some interest. Best of luck to you, hopefully it works out well.

riverfrontbrewer said:

First of all, unless the homwbrewer was licensed this is illegal as hell since the OP clearly states that the HBer is brewing it at home, kegging it, and bringing it to the brewery. That is clearly manufacture and distribution by an unlicensed person.

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riverfrontbrewer makes a sound legal point. If you did go to the media mentioning these contract talks that you had with the commercial brewery, "the law" might see this and come knocking at your door; maybe they could charge you with intent or something (I don't know, but I wouldn't risk going to the media).

Just give them the good old fashioned middle finger and boycott the place.

oceanselv said:

Recipes can be patented and are indeed intellectual property. However, the minute you apply for a patent the recipe becomes public. Hence the reason Coke or KFC have never patented their recipes. Since you or the club made your recipe public there is not much you can do to recoup any financial gains from the brewery. However waging a negative public relations campaign against the brewery my lead them to at least credit you for the recipe. If you should get any interest from the local media make sure you explain to them you were in negotiations to brew the beer before they took your recipe. Frame it as a David Vs. Goliath issue.

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Actually, a recipe can only be patented if it involves a unique process such as the constant addition of hops like Dogfish Head 90 Minute IPA.
It is uncool. I'd tell that to the brewery and anyone else that cares to listen, but that's as far as you can go. You should enjoy the fame. You MIGHT be able to convince them to take your name out of it if you bluff legal action.

I say talk to the brewery FIRST. Get it sorted out with them involved so that you both can address the issues at hand.

By going to the media you will present YOUR story but it's likely that the brewery has an equally valid and perhaps scandalous story to present as well. It's all a matter of interpretation.

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I hope that people behave in a generally civilized manner. You may not see that from your side right now but if you talk to the brewery they may present an interesting perspective on the situation. Give them a chance to rectify the situation and you may be surprised at the outcome.

I think it was very wrong for them to blindside you by brewing the beer without your knowledge. It would have been fun to at least get to go help brew it! You were definitely screwed and wronged, but what's the best thing to do with the situation now?

I always suggest it's good to be informed, so consulting a lawyer may bring you some peace, even if nothing comes of it.

But other than that I would roll with it. It's a rare opportunity to have your name out there. I'll bet you're a great brewer and you have endless possibilities for phenomenal recipes. I think it's a great idea to increase your publicity regarding the beer, but I would keep a positive slant to it...a local homebrewer gets some notoriety...but I'd keep the bitter in the beer and not in the brewer -- IMO for you to appear angry or victimy will not help you in the long run.

I'm in a little club and we develop recipes for a local brewery and our name goes on the beers. We do it for bragging rights only. It's fun and challenging and it helps to improve our skills. And if I ever do decide to produce my own beers commercially there is already some association in peoples' minds. The only thing that would really bother me in your case is if their version sucked and my name was on it -- then I would want my name taken off! If I were you I would go have a pint to check it out!!

But in all, even if they were a-holes about it, IMO it was a compliment to have them brew your beer. I say get what you can out of it amicably and keep on brewing!

FWIW, from the U.S. Copyright Office website:

How do I protect my recipe?
A mere listing of ingredients is not protected under copyright law. However, where a recipe or formula is accompanied by substantial literary expression in the form of an explanation or directions, or when there is a collection of recipes as in a cookbook, there may be a basis for copyright protection. Note that if you have secret ingredients to a recipe that you do not wish to be revealed, you should not submit your recipe for registration, because applications and deposit copies are public records. See FL 122, Recipes.



Talk to the brewery and voice your complaint/concerns about your rights and the contract you had discussed. IIRC, verbal contracts can be binding as well as written ones, but don't quote me on that. If speaking to them doesn't help then consult an attorney to see what rights you have and a possible course of action.

I didn't see the name of the brewery in this thread yet. Did I miss something? Can somebody please tell me what the name of the brewery is, or any specifics on this at all?

alert the media

then take a huge dump in front of the place

If you want to do something, tell us who the brewery is already. You don't have to keep it a secret.

Well, there's no verbal contract because no agreement was come to.

The whole thing still sounds... odd. Why would a commercial brewery want a homebrewer to do all the mashing and boiling on this recipe, when THEY have all the gear to do this easily?

Sounds legally questionable, at the least. Not sure how far the "hey, we didn't pitch the yeast yet!" defense would get you - you're still basically making and selling a commercial beer without license. The regulations governing beer and winemaking (health codes, etc) do not only apply post-fermentation. May be just as well to not be connected to this.

This whole thing just doesn't add up...

arturo7 said:

alert the media

then take a huge dump in front of the place

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Best idea so far.
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It was still in discussion which equipment was to be used (the brewery is very small scale). The beer was to be used to fill out room in the tasting bar that they were having trouble keeping full. Nothing was really nailed down, we just got as far as the ingredient list and my price for my time...
I'm just waiting on response from the brewery. I requested that since I had no knowledge or input to the beer I should not receive any credit for it, and I asked that he take the recipe and rename it, make it his own.

ok by the legal you cant to much, but socially speaking you could make some noise with the media, and really you should go to the brewery and just tell them that if they cant come up with recipes like this, you should get another brewer, or maybe ask for free beer or something

That sucks. It sounds like they dug your recipe and just decided to cut you out to save money. Thats a dick move. And to everyone who says, just talk to them, blah, blah. To you, I ask, what good is it to talk to a thief?

I say you call them out, there's only 2 or 3 microbrews in Chattanooga that I know of.

go to a competing local brewery and have them brew the same recipe and name it "Property of Name of Brewer" or "Not Stolen From Name of Brewer". in all honesty nothing much can be done legally or worth while so just some fun getting back at them.

hire a student looking to make a couple bucks to stand outside (off property) with a sign like the unions do. Embarass them in front of their customers

Well, I'm not sure if this is a legal option or not. But, you could arrange a meeting to discuss the problem with the brewery in question and when you arrive, have a pinhole camera on a button on your shirt. That way, if they comply and stop making it, you win. Or, if they don't, or if they d*ck you around, you have it on tape to then take to the media. So then the media has a real story, rather than just one man's opinion against a company.
That or the ol' flaming-bag-of-poo-on-the-doorstep trick.