Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

Lennie · Dec 11, 2011

I just won the grand prize in the raffle at the St Louis Brews Holiday Homebrew Competition. It was a Brewhemoth with all the bells and whistles (tri-clamps, pressurizer, chiller coil, even valves for a ready-to-go rig). Thanks to Josh and Dale for the fantastic donation.

I plan to install a spunding valve and run some pressurized fermentations, I am really intrigued by the method and am hoping it will give me results more like commercial craft brews that have excellent malt flavor. My only indecision is whether to make the adjustable spunding valve with gauge, or simply replace the 50psi relief valve on the pressurizer with 15psi relief valve.

cmuench · Dec 12, 2011

Lennie said:
I just won the grand prize in the raffle at the St Louis Brews Holiday Homebrew Competition. It was a Brewhemoth with all the bells and whistles (tri-clamps, pressurizer, chiller coil, even valves for a ready-to-go rig). Thanks to Josh and Dale for the fantastic donation.

I plan to install a spunding valve and run some pressurized fermentations, I am really intrigued by the method and am hoping it will give me results more like commercial craft brews that have excellent malt flavor. My only indecision is whether to make the adjustable spunding valve with gauge, or simply replace the 50psi relief valve on the pressurizer with 15psi relief valve.

15 psi won't be enough. For most of the beers I'm making 2.4 vol of CO2 at 65-68 degrees is 25 psi. So with a 15 you wouldn't be able to get there. Mine is 60 psi. I think most people use this one or the 30 psi one.

Retrofit · Dec 12, 2011

I also use a 60 psi. What I've noticed is between the three gauges I own, not every gauge reads true. Some are off by as much 2 psi- which I think matters. I've considered 'down grading' to 30 psi gauges because I've read the small range is more accurate. Furthermore, when you factor in the psi range of most beers- a 60 gauge is over kill. So while I own 60's if I had to do it all over again- I think I'd go 30. Hope that helps?

Lennie · Dec 13, 2011

Thanks, I wasn't going to use the constant pressure relief valve for anything but the pressurized fermentation part but after reading some more in this thread (up to page 35) I did go ahead and also order the parts (valve and glycol gauge) for a 0.5-30psi spunding valve. I debated about the 60 but I don't have a problem using my CO2 tank to top things up as far as carbonation is concerned. I'll also chill the beer to some extent prior to filling the kegs, just not sure how low I can get the temp with the internal coil chiller and a bucket of coolant in my keezer. Should work for British bitters and the like that don't require the higher carbonation.

Appreciate the feedback.

Lennie · Dec 14, 2011

Heres a pic of my spunding valve. McMaster Carr sent the 0.5-30psi valve and gauge super fast, it arrived today so I went to Lowes and stood there for 45 minutes until I found the parts I needed to plumb this baby up. Also shown is my new setup, I'll be trying to use the peltier wine cooler to chill a reservoir that'll pump through the internal cooling coil on the Brewhemoth. The spunding valve is on a QD on the pressurizing attachment.

I must confess that the very first thing I did to my new spunding valve was to put it carefully on the out side of a keg of German pils. Its one of those kegs with identical posts and I could have sworn the one side said 'out"' not "in". Oops. May have helped it seal though.

Lennie · Dec 17, 2011

I brewed a 6gal batch of black IPA yesterday and pitched it in my Brewhemoth. Using US05 dry yeast so it hasn't taken off quite yet. I pitched another packet this morning and am going to replicate the batch so I have 12gal in the fermentor. Figured I'd go big for the inaugural run on this fermentor.

WortMonger · Dec 17, 2011

Awesome stuff there Lennie! Let us all know how it turns out for you.

Dgonza9 · Dec 17, 2011

My usual technique is to ferment in a sanke at 7psi, then ramp it up at the end to carb. I usually crash cool for a week, then counter pressure transfer to serving kegs.

Well, I've been busy lately and kind of preferred drinking off the fermenter keg to actually kegging it.

Is there some point at which autolysis or some other negative flavors will ruin my beer?

I'll probably keg tomorrow, but Sundays are my only day off right now and, well, it may not happen.

Thanks for the advice. Cheers! :mug:

Mysticmead · Dec 17, 2011

there are people that ferment in the primary for well over a month.. of course that's not pressure fermented but I don't see how it would matter.

Lennie · Dec 18, 2011

Mystic, theres usually some carryover of yeast in kegs and I've never had it negatively impact the beer.

Wortmonger, thanks for the encouragement.

I brewed another batch, it came out a little stronger and 5.5gal. The average OG for the total batch is 1.072, 11.3gal. I'll get two kegs plus some bottles for possible competition entries (if its any good). When I went to check the fermentor this morning the spunding valve read 5psi, I backed it off a little and heard the hiss so its working great. I'm going to raise it to 7psi and let it go a few days, then bump to 15psi.

The temperature is running 64F (taped a thermocouple to the cone of the fermentor), I have the recirculating chiller set at 60F. I'll see if this thing will hold the temp, its cool in the basement anyway.

I'm off to the races!

WortMonger · Dec 18, 2011

Dgonza9 said:
Is there some point at which autolysis or some other negative flavors will ruin my beer?

I am sure there is a shorter time table due to there being more yeast, and under pressure. However; I am unsure how long this would be since we have proven the autolysis to be El CuCuy (the boogieman) in home-brewing on our "normal" fermentations, I would assume it to be just short of that. I am also thinking about bottle aged beers... that have yeast in them on purpose with no worry about autolysis. Of course, these beers are clean of old yeast prior to priming and pitching with healthy stuff before final packaging. I honestly wouldn't worry until I knew i needed to start worrying about it on our scale of production.

Mysticmead said:
there are people that ferment in the primary for well over a month.. of course that's not pressure fermented but I don't see how it would matter.

Yep, my thoughts exactly... except that it is/probably a shorter timeframe than under normal practices (but this is just speculation on my part).

Lennie said:
Mystic, theres usually some carryover of yeast in kegs and I've never had it negatively impact the beer.

Wortmonger, thanks for the encouragement.

I brewed another batch, it came out a little stronger and 5.5gal. The average OG for the total batch is 1.072, 11.3gal. I'll get two kegs plus some bottles for possible competition entries (if its any good). When I went to check the fermentor this morning the spunding valve read 5psi, I backed it off a little and heard the hiss so its working great. I'm going to raise it to 7psi and let it go a few days, then bump to 15psi.

The temperature is running 64F (taped a thermocouple to the cone of the fermentor), I have the recirculating chiller set at 60F. I'll see if this thing will hold the temp, its cool in the basement anyway.

I'm off to the races!

Awesome! Someone needs to design a relatively inexpensive digital adjustable back-pressure relief valve. Then you could set it and forget it... especially if it had built in temperature to pressure control. Alas, I can only wish and pray.

Lennie · Dec 18, 2011

I did buy a nonadjustable 15psi pressure relief valve. I may give it a try some day. The pressurizer attachment on the Brewhemoth has a 50psi relief valve built in so I could just replace that one. I like the adjustable option though.

WortMonger · Dec 18, 2011

What size npt threads are the built-in 50 psi relief valve? That is probably what I would do if it was 1/4". Then again, even if it were 1/2" I would buy a fitting that could get me a pressure gauge and adjustable back-pressure relief valve.

Lennie · Dec 19, 2011

WortMonger said:
What size npt threads are the built-in 50 psi relief valve? That is probably what I would do if it was 1/4". Then again, even if it were 1/2" I would buy a fitting that could get me a pressure gauge and adjustable back-pressure relief valve.

I'm hoping its 1/4" NPT, thats what I ordered. I still have the 50psi valve installed, I put the spunding valve on a keg ball lock QD. That way I can pull that off and put gas on the fermentor if I want. I don't know that I'll ever use it, the spunding valve gives you more control especially when it comes time to carbonate.

Lennie · Dec 21, 2011

Its been three days at 7psi, and I'm bumping up to 10psi today. Haven't taken a gravity yet, was hoping my order from Brewing Hardware would show up and I could put a picnic tap in the racking port. Might just open the valve into a pitcher this evening and take a reading. I have a feeling that the ferment is pretty well along, the temp fell a couple of degrees this morning.

jammin · Dec 21, 2011

Hi guys,

Not to sound lazy, but it's tough to find the information I'm looking for in this 100+ pages. I was hoping someone could help dial me in to get set up.

My first question is: Where are you getting your parts from? I see an adjustable pressure relief valve on grainger that looks like the right one. I can't seem to find the brass T fitting for it though. Is there a place I can order nearly all the parts from at once?

My second question is: How do you control the krausen from blowing out of the corny keg?

Thanks in advance!
~j

flananuts · Dec 21, 2011

I'll give some thought to this. Search LamarGuy within this thread since he posted this. You should be able to buy it all through McMasterCarr

My suggestion is you keep the corny for drinking beer, and use a sanke for your fermenter. You can get a tri clamp SS fitting with gas port, racking cane, and thermowell from brewers hardware.

The pressure you create and manage will keep the krausen in control but folks here will use fermcap sometimes to control.

Good luch and welcome to the pressure crew

kpr121 · Dec 21, 2011

1: I got my parts from Mc Master:

1 48935K25 1 Each Vacuum/pressure Adjustable Brass Relief Valve, 1/4 Npt Male, 0-20 Psi
2 4089K23 1 Each Multipurpose Gauge, Plastic Case, 2" Dial, 1/4 Npt Ctr Back, 0-60 Psi
3 4429K223 1 Each Low-pressure Brass Threaded Pipe Fitting, 1/4 X 1/8 X 1/4 Pipe Size, Inline Reducing Tee
4 50675K161 1 Each Brass 37 Degree Flared Tube Fitting, Adapter For 1/4" Tube Od X 1/8" Npt Male Pipe

2: I use fermcap (10 drops per corny), and also only fill to about 4.5 gallons (I generally pull about 1/2 to a full gallon of wort off to use as starters, then decant and pitch the yeast). I also have rigged up a blowoff container inline from the gas QDs, its a water filter that has barb connections on either side. When I do get blowoff (about 50% of the time), it simply collects in the water filter and doesnt gunk up the spunding valve. The valve is obviously on the 'out' port of the water filter.

Lennie · Dec 21, 2011

I used the 99045K24 adjustable relief valve, it goes 0.5-30psi. Its a lot more expensive than the one listed above. 0-20psi would be fine for the pressurized fermenting part, it won't get you as much carbonation after ferm is done. I bought the 0-30psi gauge, glycol filled although I don't think you need that unless you are putting this in a ferm fridge where there is significant moisture/humidity.

These part numbers are found in one of the quick links in the first post of this thread.

1MadScientist · Dec 21, 2011

I also use a corny with 10 drops of FermCap-S and pressure ferment at 12.5 psi with a full 5 gallons of wort right up to the welded seam. I have no blow off, just the gas. I do make sure I have no pellet hops just in case, I don't want a clog in the poppets...

Lennie · Dec 21, 2011

kpr121 said:
1: I use fermcap (10 drops per corny), and also only fill to about 4.5 gallons (I generally pull about 1/2 to a full gallon of wort off to use as starters, then decant and pitch the yeast). I also have rigged up a blowoff container inline from the gas QDs, its a water filter that has barb connections on either side. When I do get blowoff (about 50% of the time), it simply collects in the water filter and doesnt gunk up the spunding valve. The valve is obviously on the 'out' port of the water filter.

Sounds like a darned nice setup. Do you think it produces superior beer? What advantages do you see in pressurized fermentation? How many batches have you made?

I love fermcap, but didn't use it since I'm not pushing volume limits. Yet.

kpr121 · Dec 21, 2011

Lennie said:
Sounds like a darned nice setup. Do you think it produces superior beer? What advantages do you see in pressurized fermentation? How many batches have you made?

I love fermcap, but didn't use it since I'm not pushing volume limits. Yet.

I love my setup. I would say that I haven't had a batch I wasn't happy with yet. Maybe 6 or 7 bactches so far. I love the fact that I cs have grain to glass beer in like 2 weeks!

One of the reasons I love it is because I do 10 gal no chill. So boiling wort goes straight in the cornies, rack the last gallon into a Growler, cool it all (growler goes in thr fridge or cold water bath if I want to get a starter going quickly). Then pitch yeast and hook up spunding valve in the next day or two. I let it ferment at about 5 psi for about 4 days, then check gravity. If I'm close to fg I will simply disconnect the spunding valve.

Its awesome and I will never ferment beer any other way. One thing i hate is cleaning the kegs, but hot oxyclean works well!

Lennie · Dec 21, 2011

That is about as simple of a setup as I can think of. I'm still going to the trouble of chilling, although its usually just putting the kettle in the sink and filling three or four times, letting the heat transfer then draining and repeating. Only use maybe 10gal of water total. On my 7gal big kettle I use a galvanized washtub on the deck, this time of year I only have to use two changes of water and the wort is cooled nicely. I'd use my IC but its too cold to use the hose and I hate having to attach the hose attachment to the kichen sink. I don't think no-chill has any down sides though, other than more trub in the yeast cake. Do you serve from those kegs?

Mysticmead · Dec 21, 2011

Lennie said:
I'd use my IC but its too cold to use the hose and I hate having to attach the hose attachment to the kichen sink. I don't think no-chill has any down sides though, other than more trub in the yeast cake. Do you serve from those kegs?

use a pond pump and recirculate the water through the IC. I use a cooler with water and ice and it drops the temp REAL fast

Lennie · Dec 22, 2011

Mysticmead said:
use a pond pump and recirculate the water through the IC. I use a cooler with water and ice and it drops the temp REAL fast

I just got a pump so I have this as an option, I don't think using ice is cost effective until you get the temp down to 100F or lower.

jammin · Dec 22, 2011

kpr121 said:
1: I got my parts from Mc Master:

1 48935K25 1 Each Vacuum/pressure Adjustable Brass Relief Valve, 1/4 Npt Male, 0-20 Psi
2 4089K23 1 Each Multipurpose Gauge, Plastic Case, 2" Dial, 1/4 Npt Ctr Back, 0-60 Psi
3 4429K223 1 Each Low-pressure Brass Threaded Pipe Fitting, 1/4 X 1/8 X 1/4 Pipe Size, Inline Reducing Tee
4 50675K161 1 Each Brass 37 Degree Flared Tube Fitting, Adapter For 1/4" Tube Od X 1/8" Npt Male Pipe

2: I use fermcap (10 drops per corny), and also only fill to about 4.5 gallons (I generally pull about 1/2 to a full gallon of wort off to use as starters, then decant and pitch the yeast). I also have rigged up a blowoff container inline from the gas QDs, its a water filter that has barb connections on either side. When I do get blowoff (about 50% of the time), it simply collects in the water filter and doesnt gunk up the spunding valve. The valve is obviously on the 'out' port of the water filter.

This is fantastic - I owe you a beer!

So is there a barbed fitting that will mate to the setup or do you have this threaded straight to your filter housing? I like the way you have yours setup and I'd like to go this route.

A picture of this would probably be worth a thousand words if it wouldn't be too much trouble.

Thanks, everybody for all the helpful replies. I can't wait to do my first pressurized fermentation. I'm going to have to read up on washing yeast now; it seems like the two go hand in hand.

Cheers,
~j

Lennie · Dec 22, 2011

I'm sure you can find a barbed fitting that will let you attach the spunding valve to the hose on the outlet side. I saw them when I was putting my setup together at Lowes. I stood there at Lowes for 45min trying things until I got the right stuff.

kpr121 · Dec 22, 2011

Lennie: I haven’t served from the kegs yet. But I am willing to try at some point, it might even be this hefe that is carbing up currently. To me it seems like the first pour in between days of use will usually have sediment since the yeast cake will want to settle in around the diptube. Maybe after the first 10 pints or so it would be fine, but I’ve never chanced it. I like to pressure transfer into another clean serving vessel that has a ½ cup of gelatin solution already inside.

As far as extra trub goes, you could transfer to a new keg before you pitch, leaving the break material behind. I’ve never seen the point in this, but it could help you headspace-wise if you are filling to the full 5 gallons originally.

Jammin: If youre ever in the area, I’d be glad to share! Yes I use ¼ inch barbed fittings that screw directly into the filter housing. I can definitely get a picture of my setup on here. Its all torn down right now but maybe next week when I brew another batch (Yay for a Christmas holiday week off!).

Lennie · Dec 22, 2011

I took a gravity sample tonight. As I suspected, the beer has reached 1.016 after just five days, and thats including a 24hr lag time for dry yeast. It has excellent aroma, a rocky head and a very firm bitterness. No sign of diacetyl or other green flavors other than a yeastiness. It might not be quite as black as I wanted but its tough to judge color since the sample had yeast in it. I'm going to keep it at 10psi for another couple of days, then bleed pressure and harvest yeast then dial up the pressure. I might add some priming sugar to ensure adequate carbonation, and maybe some gelatin to speed the clearing.

1.072 to 1.016 in five days, thats fast. 78% attenuation is a perfect result as far as I'm concerned.

WortMonger · Dec 23, 2011

Pure awesomeness!

Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

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I've done it and I liked it just fine!

I've done it, nothing wrong with it, but prefer normal fermentation techniques.

I've done it, hate it, and never will do it again!

I've never done it, but it is on my list!

I've never done anything. I only brew beer in my mind.

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