NYC 2010 Water Report

Figured some other people here might be interested in seeing this. It's the mst recent water report for NYC public water. Just came to my house this week.

If you copy the picture then blow it up, it is readable

There's also a PDF version available here:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/pdf/wsstate10.pdf

The above-posted data sheet is on page 10.

To be an obvious newbie: Are there any aspects of this water which are blatantly in need of improvement, for brewing purposes?

This is actually very nice water in the sense that it is so low in minerals that it is almost comparable to RO water. As such you can brew many types of beer with it if you use acid judiciously to control mash pH. Most beers would benefit from supplementation of the calcium with either the chloride (you want a full bodied, sweet, round, soft beer) or the sulfate (you want forward hops, a dry, thinner beer) or a bit of each for something in between. The Primer in the stickies will give you some general guidelines.

NYC water is straight from the Catskills and is nearly rainwater. Excellent brewing water stock. Its always easier to add ions than take out, so this water makes brewing easier.

Since AJ and I disagree on this point, I'll mention that having the capability to add alkalinity is an important tool you'll need to produce good darker beers. The dark grain grist and elevated percentage of crystal malts will tend to push the mash pH too low. My experience is that allowing the mash pH to drop below 5.3 can introduce an excessive level of sharpness and tartness in the flavor profile. In some styles, that is welcome. In others, its not.

I don't really disagree about the need to add alkalinity. I just hold that it is relatively rare that it needs to be done. I think the decision to add alkalinity to low ion content water should be ruled, in the first instance, by what your pH meter tells you and ultimately by what you palate tells you.

The consensus among everyone I know is to add gypsum and a little table salt, depending on the style. I don't know much about water chemistry beyond the fact that NYC water is a great base for brewing almost every beer. Can either of you go into more detail about what I can do to make it even better?

I can go on for hours but after 20 years of doing so have decided that this is not the best approach for bringing beginners up to speed. Thus at the request of the administrators here I put up the Primer which is in the Stickies section of this topic. The idea is to start off KISS so you can be making good beer right away. The idea is not to discourage you from learning as much as you can from more detailed sources as you go.

The problem with the other sources is that the subject is quite intricate if not complex and there are a lot of sources that will give you archaic and sometimes flat out bad advice. Many if those sources are focused on emulating, for example, the water profile of Burton when you wish to make a Burton style ale. Better Burton style ales can be made without emulation of Burton's water (and the Brewers at Burton would have done this if they had the technology available to them that you have available to you).

There is still residue in the HB community that the color of a beer determines the "required" residual alkalinity if the water. Spreadsheets based on this thesis will have you adding tablespoonsful of chalk to your water or mash. If you have been making good dark beers following the Primer and find another source that recommends doing this this hope is that you would recognize that as suspicious and forbear from following that advice. Or if you do follow it and have been brewing from the Primer you should only make that mistake once. OTOH if you find a source that says add a little chalk for very dark beers you should reason that this isn't too extreme a departure from what you know works quite well and give it a try to see if it improves your beer.

I'm going to read your primer when I get a chance. I've never delved much into water chemistry, because as I said, NYC water seems to be fine right out of the tap without much adjustment. Our water is also consistent through the seasons.

Now I increasingly find myself wanting to perfect certain styles though, so I will have to learn more about it soon.

Airborneguy said:

NYC water seems to be fine right out of the tap without much adjustment. Our water is also consistent through the seasons.
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There's a reason why our Pizza and Bagels are superior.

Airborneguy said:

The consensus among everyone I know is to add gypsum and a little table salt, depending on the style. I don't know much about water chemistry beyond the fact that NYC water is a great base for brewing almost every beer. Can either of you go into more detail about what I can do to make it even better?

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The bottom line is 'less is better'. Don't go to extremes using published water profiles. As AJ said, it may not necessarily produce a better beer. Bru'n Water has a set of color-based water profiles that can be used as starting points for water adjustments. They were purposely formulated under the 'less is more' philosophy with minimal ion content that should be 'generally' good for that color beer. Bru'n Water goes further in giving the brewer the ability to further assess the effect of the grist on mash pH. You may need to adjust acid or alkaline additions predicted for those color-based profiles based on the grist-based pH prediction.

Its better than nothing, but as AJ says, first hand knowledge from a pH meter is the best guide. Bru'n Water has a pretty good ability to get you close, but pH measurement is the best guide.

BoxofRain said:

There's a reason why our Pizza and Bagels are superior.

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You know I never really believed that was the reason until I started brewing and read about how water effects beer, and just how good our soft water is.

BoxofRain said:

There's a reason why our Pizza and Bagels are superior.

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I don't use water in pizza dough. You can probably guess what I do use and it is made with soft water so I hope that counts.

So which column are you guys using to run these NYC water numbers? The "Average" column? Those numbers seem nowhere near most water reports that I've seen on here.

I mostly use this report as a loose reference guide. I don't get too crazy with my water adjustments. What other reports are you referring to? This one is the official report of the DEP, so I'd lean towards this one considering they are the providers of our water.

I'm referring to other cities reports that are not NYC. I'm not disputing the legitimacy of the report, just simply asking if it's the "Average" column that you use to plug into water report spreadsheets, etc. I'm just not clear which column in the report that you posted contains the information that we're looking for.

Thanks for the reply!

And to follow that, based on this report what sort of additions do you make to our water for what kind of beers? I'm assuming some gypsum for pale ales, IPA's, etc. Do you add this to the mash or the boil? What else, if anything?

Thanks again ABG!

You got got it right, mainly some gypsum to hoppier beers and some salt to my more malty beers. I don't add much, usually around .5 grams per gallon. I add mine to the mash water just before I start to stir in the grains so that I get everything mixed well as I stir.

Thanks! So just to confirm, you ARE using the "Average" column to get your numbers for water adjustment spreadsheets and the like?

Yup, the averages.

ajdelange said:

This is actually very nice water in the sense that it is so low in minerals that it is almost comparable to RO water. As such you can brew many types of beer with it if you use acid judiciously to control mash pH. Most beers would benefit from supplementation of the calcium with either the chloride (you want a full bodied, sweet, round, soft beer) or the sulfate (you want forward hops, a dry, thinner beer) or a bit of each for something in between. The Primer in the stickies will give you some general guidelines.

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I guess this is why I noticed that most of my beers taste thin and sometimes I feel there is more of a hop flavor than there should be.

BoxofRain said:

There's a reason why our Pizza and Bagels are superior.

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I heard there is a bagel place in South Florida that gets NYC tapwater delivered by a truck to make their product.

NYC pizza is definitely the best in the New World. Brooklyn is home Grimaldi's (right by Brooklyn bridge), Totonnos (oldest continuously operating restaurant in Coney Island) and Spumoni Gardens (best square slices).

So, based on this water report, and the fact that AJ Delange considers this almost comparable to RO water, I will be adding 1/2 a teaspoon of calcium chloride per 5 gallons of water and 3% sauermalz total to my Belgian Wit that will be brewed this weekend.

These numbers come from AJ's recommendations in the primer for what to add to a hefeweizen (or other "soft water beer") when using RO water. The additions of the sauermalz seems especially important when brewing this wheat beer, because as I understand it wheat will push the ph of the mash even higher. Since it seems as if none of these numbers in the NYC water report are of any considerable amount, I'm considering our NYC water as essentially RO in character.

AJ, or anyone else, does this assumption and the resulting additions seem correct?

That's what I would do but I'd check pH with a meter too (you knew I was going to put that in my response).

Pivzavod said:

Spumoni Gardens (best square slices).

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As a fellow Brooklyn guy, +1

I've also spoken with the 6 point guys and the Brooklyn brewery guys and they've both said that they use straight tap water in their beers with no treatment.

I've also always used tap water in my brews also.

Thanks for the reply AJ!

And thanks for the info, diggens! So, does that mean that any mash ph considerations that these breweries have are recipe related, i.e. adding sauermalz, etc. to adjust for ph? If not, AJ, can you see our water as not posing any ph issues for standard recipes of most beer styles? I would assume that if our water needed any kind of treatment, that these breweries would be doing it.

And not to be a pain in the ass, but AJ I've read on this forum that you're not sure what kind of flavor contribution (whether negative or positive) sauermalz has on an ale, only that lagers tend to benefit from a minor addition.

Should I not be worried about a flavor contribution at 3% of the grain bill anyway? And I'm even more curious why the flavor contribution is known to be positive in a lager, but unknown in an ale?

And lastly, what sort of flavor contribution, if any, does the calcium chloride add? If I were to decide against using it, could I still use the sauermalz, or would the additions then be out of balance?

Thanks again for all of the help!

Zombie thread, but I'd be curious to know what fellow NYers are adding to their water, if anything. Our calcium in particular is particularly low. My usual technique is to fill two boilers with cold unfiltered tap water the night before brew day and let the chlorine evaporate. I also use PH5.2, though it is probably unnecessary given our water profile.

WalkingStickMan said:

And not to be a pain in the ass, but AJ I've read on this forum that you're not sure what kind of flavor contribution (whether negative or positive) sauermalz has on an ale, only that lagers tend to benefit from a minor addition.

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Clearly I should have responded to this ages ago but only spotted this question when the thread popped up again today.

I think the reason the effects of sauermalz are better known on lagers is that they tend to be used in lager brewing. In Germany one cannot add mineral acid to mash/beer and so sauermalz and sauergut are used for this necessary function. Elsewhere, brewers tend to add mineral acid.

WalkingStickMan said:

Should I not be worried about a flavor contribution at 3% of the grain bill anyway? And I'm even more curious why the flavor contribution is known to be positive in a lager, but unknown in an ale?

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At 3% the flavor changes are subtle. Many say they don't even notice them.

WalkingStickMan said:

And lastly, what sort of flavor contribution, if any, does the calcium chloride add? If I were to decide against using it, could I still use the sauermalz, or would the additions then be out of balance?

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Calcium is pretty flavor neutral. Chloride tends to round out, smooth off or sweeten a beer.

I usually add some gypsum or calcium chloride, total of 6 grams for about 10 gallons of brew water (depending on style for gypsum or cacl). I just recently started doing this and I'm impressed by the improvements it made. But I love the water here in BK... great for brewing.