Quick Framboise (Lindemann's)

You've probably seen this thread before: "My partner loves Lindeman's and I want to brew it without waiting 6 months to 2 years." You've also probably seen the thread: "I wanted to brew an authentic and complex lambic, so I waited a whole year and now just how much lactic acid do I add to make my lambic taste sour?"

So, I decided to experiment and make a framboise using only acid additions, without bothering with the bugs or even the quick sour mash. Before we go any further: Yes, you're right, it's not technically a lambic because there's none of the requisite bugs in it. Yeah, it's actually just a tart raspberry wheat ale. Yeah, it will lack in complexity compared to the real thing. And yeah, I even know all the cool kids actually drink Cantillon and Lindemann's backsweetens their offering. Get over it and provide useful criticisms that pertain to the recipe, please.

Here's the background: I found that the average Gueuze (blended to taste) contains about .18-.52% concentration of lactic acid and .06-.18% concentration of acetic acid. After several tasting experiments, I found you can approximate the background taste of Lindemann's with an .18% lactic acid addition (88% concentration) and a .03% balsamic vinegar addition (about 6-7% concentration, it really doesn't matter).. The balsamic vinegar actually does A LOT to add complexity behind the lactic sourness, since it is aged and has many beneficial flavor characteristics besides sour, complexities which the lactic acid addition lacks.

Here's the recipe:

Recipe

OG: ~1.059
FG: ~1.012-1.015
IBU: 10

Pilsner 52%
Flaked Wheat 30%
Six-Row 15%
Acidulated Malt 3%

Hallertau, 60 min 10 IBU
Oregon Fruit Puree (Raspberry), High Krausen (2 cans for 5 gallons)
.18% lactic acid, bottling (7.9 tsp for 5 gallons)
.03% balsamic vinegar, bottling (19.2 tsp for 5 gallons)

Safbrew T-58 @ 68*

Mash Schedule
Protein Rest, 133* for 20 min
Beta Amylase Rest, 145* for 40 min
Alpha Amylase Rest, 160* for 45 min
Decoct thin mash and heat just to boil for mashout, though not a necessary step.

My Questions For YOU Before I Brew

o I'd like to have this finish around 1.008, or about 86% attenuation. I've gotten 78% attenuation from this yeast at this temp, while mashing pretty much straight pils grists at 151 for 60 min. A 30 min at 145 and 45 min at 160 gets me 78% with Saflager S-23, even with about 5-10% crystal malts. To get the desired attenuation, I need to mash lower. This is about the schedule I'd use for any other dry beer, such as a pilsner, minus the protein rest which should enhance fermentability a bit. Think the mash schedule I've laid out will increase the fermentability to the desired level? Ignore what's in italics here and scroll down to the next post for an update.

o I'd like to increase fermentability to desired levels, but is my mash schedule going to go overboard and thin the beer out too much? I wouldn't do this on any normal beer, but 30% flaked wheat is a lot and should really aid in mouthfeel and head retention. If you're wondering, I added the six-row to help convert the adjuncts and aid in fermentability.

I'll be brewing this around March 5th, so stay tuned for updates and pictures. I should be able to be giving some indication of the result around early April. Wish me luck!

Sounds like you've got everything laid out pretty well. Even though I'm one of those people that likes to age for years, this sounds pretty interesting. If it turns out, let us know and I may give it a shot. Although I'm not a fan of lindemans, I know plenty of girls that are. If I could crank out a pseudo-lambic in a few months, they'd probably be psyched.

As for hitting 86%...I suppose it's possible with that mash schedule. I might actually concider doing this with a 60 minute beta rest @ 148-149 and an alpha for only 20 minutes which should still leave you a very fermentable beer.

What's your reason for using 6-row instead of all pils/wheat with a little acid malt? I'm assuming this has to do with you wanting a highly fermentable wort. I think with the protein rest and the extra time in the mash, you shouldn't have a problem.

@Suthrncomfrt: I was thinking the same thing on the rests, at least in terms of trading off a shorter alpha rest for a longer beta rest. The only reason I decided to stay at 145 was because that's where my multi-rest schedules have been before, so I kept it there for the sake of consistency in my experimentations. Also, I read somewhere that extending an alpha rest past conversion (which should be done around 20 minutes, like you suggested) has been found by german brewers to aid in head retention or something like that. Anyway, I've had great success with it so far and figured the dextrin chains won't be able to grow during the the alpha rest after they've been chopped by the beta amylase, but it could be changing the profile in ways I don't yet understand.

The rationale behind adding the six-row does have to do with wanting a highly fermentable wort. I've never had a recipe with over 25% adjuncts convert properly with just a one-step mash for 60 min and regular base malt. It's just a little insurance I'm buying myself in the way of diastatic activity after a few failures, though I agree, I don't think it's completely necessary with the lengthy mash, which should fully convert all the starches. Again, I didn't think it would hurt, and the extra husks should help in the sparge, but rice hulls should take care of that.

how is this being sweetened?

Good question, Trent. After looking around some more, I realize that 1.008 is going to be too dry.
I've been playing around with different ideas, such as adding crystal, backsweetening with lactose, or controlling unfermentables with the mash temperature.

I figure I'd start simple by opting to tinker with the mash. Remember, Lindemans has to backsweeten to reach their desired level of sweetness because they make an authentic base lambic first, which uses a lambic culture and will always result in a drier beer than a straight up saccharomyces fermentation would. I'm not using the lambic culture and am instead adding a controlled amount of acidity for sourness, so, in theory, I shouldn't have to do anything special to control sweetness outside of the mash.

So, how sweet is Lindemans? According to the GABF style guide, a fruit lambic finishes at 1.008-1.016, which I interpreted to mean a beer like Lindemans comes in at the higher end of the range. I expect a starting gravity of 1.059 with fruit, so a FG of 1.016 would be 73% attenuation while a FG of 1.008 would be 86% attenuation. The last time I used Safbrew T-58 in a recipe (the straight pils mash mentioned in my first post) with a dose of highly fermentable simple sugar added to boost its performance, I got 78% attenuation. With a mash schedule leaning towards fermentability and the added fruit sugars, I'm estimating an attenuation range of 75%-79% with this recipe and a FG range of 1.012 to 1.015, which would put me right in the mid to upper range of sweetness for the style. If I end up drier, I'll just back down a touch on the acidity to keep it balanced Lindemans-style.

p.s. Since Lindemans makes a lambic first and then backsweetens, their version has a higher alcohol content at the same FG which enhances the perception of dryness. In other words, Lindemans should taste drier than a regular 1.016 beer, though I guess that also depends on the sweeteners they use.

Bump. How did this end up?

Any updates on if this worked or not?

`

...and three years later: I moved before I got the chance to bottle this batch, but not before I got the chance to taste it and take notes. Then I lost the notes. By the time I got back to brewing, the thread was dead. But seeing as I'm making another attempt and it just got a bump, I figured I'd start this back up. I remember a few things I learned:

1. Raspberries are a really tart fruit! The tasting experiments where I approximated acid levels did not take that into account, so I had to dial my acetic and lactic additions back quite a bit. (I think I just went with a bit of balsamic vinegar.) --> This time around, I'll just keep the acids on hand for adding to taste.

2. I wasn't happy with Oregon Fruit Puree. I should have trusted my instincts about the light pink slurry before I poured it into the fermenter. My guess is that they're cooked, and I'm after the aromatics that are probably driven off in the process. I ended up adding raspberry extract to compensate. --> This time around, I'll add 20 oz of thawed frozen raspberries and keep the extract on hand for adding to taste.

3. Lindemann's is really sweet! My attempt was so off here that I ended up dumping cane sugar into different batch samples to figure out where that Lindemann's-style balance was. If I recall correctly, it was somewhere in the upper 1.020s. (Yikes!) --> This time around, I'll try 10% light crystal malt with a mid-150's mash temp. That's about as far as I'm willing to go.

4. I have no idea how Lindemann's looks deep crimson. Straight raspberry juice isn't even that color. Luckily, it isn't that important to me. Just know that this recipe will be much lighter in color.

Quick Framboise II
Pilsner 70%
Wheat Malt 20%
Honey Malt 10%
OG 1.050
Mash 155

60 minute hop addition, 20 IBU
20 oz thawed frozen raspberries, high krausen
Balsamic Vinegar, to taste
Raspberry Extract, to taste

Ferment with T-58 around 70

I'll let you know how it goes, for real this time!

How did this end up?

The beer was good. Nowhere near as sweet or as ruby red as Lindemans, but my wife and I both liked it a lot. It was reddish-orange, brilliantly clear, and had a big, pink head. Beautiful in the glass. Aroma and flavor were tart and flavorful raspberries, not the juicy flavor of Lindemans. Not much sweetness. Nice acidity in the finish. Good mouthfeel and very refreshing.

I ended up not using balsamic vinegar because most of it has sulfates and I didn't want my yeast to be killed off during bottling. Thawed berries are SO much better than the fruit puree. I thawed them with a bit of boiling water and sulfates overnight. I think a better beer could be had by adding even more, since I needed lots of raspberry extract. I'll definitely be brewing this one again! It's not as intense as Lindemans, but I found it more refreshing. You could probably get there by mashing really high and throwing in as much light crystal as you'll dare. I'm happy with it.

Quick Framboise II
Pilsner 70%
Wheat Malt 20%
Honey Malt 10%
OG 1.050
Mash 155

60 minute hop addition, 20 IBU
20 oz thawed frozen raspberries, high krausen
Lactic Acid, to taste (about 2-4 tsp)
Raspberry Extract, to taste (about 4 oz!)

Ferment with T-58 around 70