Oktoberfest recipe critique requested

As I mentioned on an earlier post or two, I have been given a mini fridge for use in lagering, and am thus preparing to take the plunge.

For a long time, I had planned for my first lager to be a Munich Dunkel, but the Oktoberfest bug has bitten me hard. I've been reading Oktoberfest recipes, playing in Beersmith, and pouring over Designing Great Beers.

I believe that I now have a good rough draft of my recipe. Please note that I am intentionally exceeding BJCP standards by just a bit - from what I understand, this style was historically just a bit "bigger" than it is written in those guidelines.

I'm well aware that there are many ways to skin this particular cat.

With that being said, here is what I have for my first recipe, the Oktoberfest:
•OG: 1.065
•FG: 1.016
•ABV: 6.43%
•IBU: 28.4 (.436 bitterness ratio)
•Color: 13.5 SRM
•Batch size: 5.5 gallons

Grains:
•4 lb 4 oz Munich malt - 31.8%
•4 lb German Pils - 29.9%
•3 lb 8 oz oz Vienna malt - 26.2%
•8 oz Melanoiden malt - 3.7%
•8 oz Caramunich - 3.7%
•8 oz Cara-pils - 3.7%
•2 oz Carafa III - 0.9%

Hops:
•1.25 oz Tettnang (4% AA) @ 60 min - 14.6 IBU
•.75 oz Hallertauer (4.8% AA) @ 60 min - 10.5 IBU
•.25 oz Tettnang (4% AA) @ 20 min - 1.8 IBU
•.25 oz Hallertauer (4.8% AA) @ 20 min - 2.1 IBU

Yeast: WLP820 (Oktoberfest/Marzen) - massive starter

•Mash @ 150 degrees F.
•Ferment @ 52 degrees until close to terminal gravity.
•Allow to warm into the 60s for a couple of days for a D-rest.
•Lager for 6+weeks (I'm a patient guy).
•Prime to ~2.8 volumes of CO2.

Thoughts, input? I've seen so many different ratios of various grains. I've seen recipes where Munich/Vienna were small entries, I've seen recipes where they dominated. The head scratching thing is that apparently, widely varied recipes do well at NHC.


Now, my working Wiesn bier recipe:
•OG: 1.056
•FG: 1.011
•ABV: 5.91%
•IBU: 23.4 (.419 bitterness ratio)
•Color: 5.0 SRM
•Batch size: 5.5 gallons

Grains:
•9 lb German Pils - 80.0%
•2 lb Munich malt - 17.8%
•4 oz Acid malt - 2.2%

Hops:
•1.20 oz Hallertauer (4.8% AA) @ 60 min - 17.7 IBU
•.50 oz Hallertauer (4.8% AA) @ 30 min - 5.7 IBU

Yeast: WLP833 (German Bock) - massive starter

•Mash @ 148 degrees F.
•Ferment @ 48 degrees until close to terminal gravity.
•Allow to warm into the 60s for a couple of days for a D-rest.
•Lager for 6+weeks (I'm a patient guy).
•Prime to ~2.8 volumes of CO2.

Okay, I'm going super simple, here. I'll be interested to see what comes from it.


At any rate, this is where I'm coming from for now. Thanks for your thoughts.

Looks like a nice beer, albeit with a pretty involved hopping schedule for an O-fest, particularly with the 45 min additions. Only thing I would definitely do is to lose the crystal malt, I know people use crystal in this style sometimes but your not going to need it and you should be shooting for malty, not sweet. good luck and enjoy

JPFuller said:

Looks like a nice beer, albeit with a pretty involved hopping schedule for an O-fest, particularly with the 45 min additions. Only thing I would definitely do is to lose the crystal malt, I know people use crystal in this style sometimes but your not going to need it and you should be shooting for malty, not sweet. good luck and enjoy

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Thanks for the input.

homebrewdad said:

As I mentioned on an earlier post or two, I have been given a mini fridge for use in lagering, and am thus preparing to take the plunge.

For a long time, I had planned for my first lager to be a Munich Dunkel, but the Oktoberfest bug has bitten me hard. I've been reading Oktoberfest recipes, playing in Beersmith, and pouring over Designing Great Beers.

I believe that I now have a good rough draft of my recipe. Please note that I am intentionally exceeding BJCP standards by just a bit - from what I understand, this style was historically just a bit "bigger" than it is written in those guidelines.

I'm well aware that there are many ways to skin this particular cat.

With that being said, here is what I have:
•OG: 1.062
•FG: 1.018
•ABV: 5.78%
•IBU: 31.5 (.506 bitterness ratio)
•Color: 10.3 SRM
•Batch size: 5.5 gallons

Grains:
•4 lb 8 oz German Pils - 35.3%
•3 lb Munich malt - 23.5%
•2 lb 8 oz Vienna malt - 19.6%
•12 oz Crystal 40L - 5.9%
•12 oz Crystal 20L - 5.9%
•12 oz Aromatic malt - 5.9%
•8 oz Cara-pils - 3.9%

Hops:
•1.25 oz Tettnang (4% AA) @ 60 min - 14.7 IBU
•.5 oz Hallertauer (4.8% AA) @ 60 min - 7 IBU
•.25 oz Tettnang (4% AA) @ 45 min - 2.7 IBU
•.25 oz Hallertauer (4.8% AA) @ 45 min - 3.2 IBU
•.25 oz Tettnang (4% AA) @ 20 min - 1.8 IBU
•.25 oz Hallertauer (4.8% AA) @ 20 min - 2.1 IBU

Yeast: WLP820 (Oktoberfest/Marzen) - massive starter

•Mash @ 155 degrees F.
•Ferment @ 52 degrees until close to terminal gravity.
•Allow to warm into the 60s for a couple of days for a D-rest.
•Lager for 6+weeks (I'm a patient guy).
•Prime to ~2.8 volumes of CO2.

Thoughts, input? I've seen so many different ratios of various grains. I've seen recipes where Munich/Vienna were small entries, I've seen recipes where they dominated. The head scratching thing is that apparently, widely varied recipes do well at NHC.

At any rate, this is where I'm coming from for now. Thanks for your thoughts.

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OK here are my thoughts. Overall I would suggest three things: Reduce significantly or eliminate entirely the crystal malt. Bring the IBUs down and simplify the hop schedule. Lower the mash temp.

Oktoberfest brews do tend to cover a lot of recipe ground. The modern German versions are very light in color for the most part, the American takes tend to be overloaded with crystal malt and the darker historical beers tend to be just that, history. So pick what you like and go from there. My taste runs towards the Munich malt heavy darker colored brews that might have been the norm 100 years ago or more.

So....#1 the crystal malt. A big dose of crystal will produce more of a Sam Adams type. It's good but tastes "American". By that I mean too much of the color, body and sweetness is coming from the crystal. Having more of those attributes provided by the base malt makes a better beer and tastes more "German" IMO.

#2 The hops/IBUs. This is a malt centered beer. The hops should be there for balance and should not intrude into the malt's limelight. Again, IMO. Use one addition for bittering and if desired one small middle addition for a touch of flavor & aroma accent. Keep the IBUs here to the mid 20s.

#3 The mash temp. A main rest at 155F, especially with 12%+ crystal malt, is going to make a too thick, too sweet beer. You want "base malt" sweetness here, provided by Munich and Vienna malts. A clean, smooth and slightly dry finish is also desirable. The middle of the beer should be rich, round and even slightly chewy but a delicate, clean finish is where it's at for the German lagers.

BTW make sure you are using high quality German malts here. None of that domestic "Munich" which is more of a specialty malt rather than a base malt.

BigEd said:

OK here are my thoughts. Overall I would suggest three things: Reduce significantly or eliminate entirely the crystal malt. Bring the IBUs down and simplify the hop schedule. Lower the mash temp.

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This is excellent input, exactly what I'm looking for. Let me explain my thought process, and I'll go from there.

I'm a pretty big fan of the Sam Adams brew... but I can see where you are coming from. I note that some really well received recipes (including Biermuncher's version) feature as much - or more - crystal. That being said, I don't want the beer to be too sweet.

Regarding IBUs... as I mentioned, I've been spending time with Designing Great Beers. Daniels recommends 25-35 IBUs, and a ratio of .500-.600. I'm at .506, which would be the malty end of his range. Not saying he's the end all, but that's what I was shooting for.

I could certainly combine the 60 and 45 minute additions, though it's my understanding that a more mid boil addition like that can add a little complexity to the beer. I feel like a half total ounce at 20 minutes is going to be a relatively minor flavor addition, which is what I'm shooting for.

Malt temp sounds like good advice for sure. I was worried that I might be too high. Maybe something more like 152-153? I don't think I want to get much lower, or I'll be giving up more body than I want to.

Thanks again for the advice. This is again just what I'm looking for.

homebrewdad said:

I'm a pretty big fan of the Sam Adams brew... but I can see where you are coming from. I note that some really well received recipes (including Biermuncher's version) feature as much - or more - crystal. That being said, I don't want the beer to be too sweet.

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If you want the beer to be more Sam Adams style then leave in the crystal, although I would try to talk you down from 16%, which is where you're at including the CaraPils. I have nothing against the SA Fest and enjoy drinking it but the high specialty malt content does make the beer too sweet IMO. When I say sweet here I mean more "sugary" sweet from the crystal malt. The sweetness from a rich base malt like Munich is different, sweet yes but cleaner and at the same time deeper than the candy like hit from crystal malt in excess. That big percentage of crystal is also going to limit the attenuation. Again if that's what you want then go for it but I just prefer the finish you experience in the German made versions.

homebrewdad said:

Regarding IBUs... as I mentioned, I've been spending time with Designing Great Beers. Daniels recommends 25-35 IBUs, and a ratio of .500-.600. I'm at .506, which would be the malty end of his range. Not saying he's the end all, but that's what I was shooting for.

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IBUs of 25 is what I would target here. The higher IBU numbers might be OK if you have more of that crystal sweetness to counterbalance.

homebrewdad said:

I could certainly combine the 60 and 45 minute additions, though it's my understanding that a more mid boil addition like that can add a little complexity to the beer. I feel like a half total ounce at 20 minutes is going to be a relatively minor flavor addition, which is what I'm shooting for.

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A half ounce @ 20 minutes is what I do. It gives a little bit of hop flavor and a whisper of aroma but supports rather than interferes with the malt.

homebrewdad said:

Malt temp sounds like good advice for sure. I was worried that I might be too high. Maybe something more like 152-153? I don't think I want to get much lower, or I'll be giving up more body than I want to.

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I do 148F. Keep 3% CaraPils in the recipe if you're worried about body.

IMHO you've designed this like an IPA brewer would. Stick with 1 or 2 malts, and no crystal. Just 1 or 2 hop additions. Mash low. 4-5L starter. Pitch at 45-47F, ferment at 48-50F. Simpler is better for German lagers. It's all about quality ingredients and good process, not recipe design!

BigEd said:

If you want the beer to be more Sam Adams style then leave in the crystal, although I would try to talk you down from 16%, which is where you're at including the CaraPils. I have nothing against the SA Fest and enjoy drinking it but the high specialty malt content does make the beer too sweet IMO. When I say sweet here I mean more "sugary" sweet from the crystal malt. The sweetness from a rich base malt like Munich is different, sweet yes but cleaner and at the same time deeper than the candy like hit from crystal malt in excess. That big percentage of crystal is also going to limit the attenuation. Again if that's what you want then go for it but I just prefer the finish you experience in the German made versions.

IBUs of 25 is what I would target here. The higher IBU numbers might be OK if you have more of that crystal sweetness to counterbalance.

A half ounce @ 20 minutes is what I do. It gives a little bit of hop flavor and a whisper of aroma but supports rather than interferes with the malt.

I do 148F. Keep 3% CaraPils in the recipe if you're worried about body.

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Thanks again for the advice. Some of it I'm going to listen to, some I'm probably not, but I really appreciate the continued feedback. I like the Sam Adams style, but that's not necessarily what I'm going for, here.

I think that I definitely will drop the crystal down a good bit. I'll likewise drop the hops a bit.

I do plan to keep the Carapils.

SpeedYellow said:

IMHO you've designed this like an IPA brewer would. Stick with 1 or 2 malts, and no crystal. Just 1 or 2 hop additions. Mash low. 4-5L starter. Pitch at 45-47F, ferment at 48-50F. Simpler is better for German lagers. It's all about quality ingredients and good process, not recipe design!

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I bow to your wisdom in regards to German lagers in general, but it seems like the vast majority of the really well received Oktoberfest recipes contain Munich, Vienna, and Pilsner. Quite a few contain some two row, as well, but I don't see the need in that.

My ferment temp is due to the yeast I'm using. WLP820 likes to be a hair warmer than some lager yeasts.


Thanks again for the input. Even if I don't adopt every suggestion, you are making me think critically about what I'm doing, and are bringing in some great perspectives. I really appreciate it.

Okay, I have edited the original recipe as follows:

I dropped the total crystal from 24 ounces to 8 ounces (3.9% of the bill).

I adjusted the Munich and Vienna up a bit to make up for the lost gravity and color (though I am a tad lighter in color now).

I dropped the 45 minute hop additions, and slightly bumped up one of the 60 minute additions. Dropped total IBU to 29.1, which dropped the bitterness ratio to .465. That number is very in line with a couple of other very malty beers that I've brewed. I don't like bitter beers, but I just don't see dropping that ratio much lower.

I dropped the mash temp down to 152. I might go a little lower, I'm musing on this.

OG is now 1 point higher, FG estimates a coupe of points lower... obviously, ABV is higher now.


So... what do you think, now?

Well, based on what I've read about this style, bitterness should fall within the 20-28 IBU range and the OG should top out at 1.057.

I have one fermenting now within those guidelines, but I am doing it as an Ale.

uatuba said:

Well, based on what I've read about this style, bitterness should fall within the 20-28 IBU range and the OG should top out at 1.057.

I have one fermenting now within those guidelines, but I am doing it as an Ale.

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That's correct. This one is not perfectly to style. I mentioned this in my first post - I'm going for a little more of the older, more traditional Oktoberfest (at least in this regard), so overall, it's slightly "bigger".

As an aside... another 'Bama brewer? What part of the state are you in? I'm about halfway between Birmingham and Tuscaloosa, and love to meet and swap homebrews.

Believe me, mine is not traditional at all either, far beyond it being an ale instead of a lager. It meets the gravity, color, and bitterness requirements. But I'm not listing which hops and grains I used...except for the fact that I did use Vienna. I tried to blend old (Marzen, hence Vienna instead of Munich) all the way through modern. It smells amazing, so it's definitely a keeper.

I'm about half way between Tuscaloosa and Florence. Shoot me a PM, especially if you brew with other folks or have any type of club. No one around here is interested other than Mr. Beer or muscadine wine. I also have season tickets to the Bama games if you go to any of those.

uatuba said:

Believe me, mine is not traditional at all either, far beyond it being an ale instead of a lager. It meets the gravity, color, and bitterness requirements. But I'm not listing which hops and grains I used...except for the fact that I did use Vienna. I tried to blend old (Marzen, hence Vienna instead of Munich) all the way through modern. It smells amazing, so it's definitely a keeper.

I'm about half way between Tuscaloosa and Florence. Shoot me a PM, especially if you brew with other folks or have any type of club. No one around here is interested other than Mr. Beer or muscadine wine. I also have season tickets to the Bama games if you go to any of those.

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For whatever it's worth, one of the NHC winners that Daniels references in his book had an OG of 1.065. This means that style guidelines are just that - guidelines. An exceptional beer might transcend some of the little details.

I don't brew with others or participate in a club, though I'd like to join/start one. As for Bama games? I'm an Auburn fan.

Auburn Fan, eh? Well I promise I do not brew with Spike 80DF.

homebrewdad said:

...
I bow to your wisdom in regards to German lagers in general, but it seems like the vast majority of the really well received Oktoberfest recipes contain Munich, Vienna, and Pilsner. Quite a few contain some two row, as well, but I don't see the need in that.
...

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Well, here's some food for thought to support my argument that simpler is better. Last year's gold medal at the Nat'l HB Competition for Cat 1 was a "Munich Helles" using only 3% Munich, and 95% Pils malt. Gold in Cat 2 was a "German Pilsner" with entirely Pils malt (smidge of 2-row). Gold in Cat 3 was "Vienna Lager" using only 7% Vienna, 7% Munich; 75% pils malt.

The point is that getting carried away with stuff other than Pils can be off-putting unless you're sure that's really what you want. E.g. personally I really dislike that intense maltiness you get with >25% Munich malt. 10% is nice though.

And if you're still experimenting with the style, adding too many variables makes it impossible to know what each malt contributed.

SpeedYellow said:

Well, here's some food for thought to support my argument that simpler is better. Last year's gold medal at the Nat'l HB Competition for Cat 1 was a "Munich Helles" using only 3% Munich, and 95% Pils malt. Gold in Cat 2 was a "German Pilsner" with entirely Pils malt (smidge of 2-row). Gold in Cat 3 was "Vienna Lager" using only 7% Vienna, 7% Munich; 75% pils malt.

The point is that getting carried away with stuff other than Pils can be off-putting unless you're sure that's really what you want. E.g. personally I really dislike that intense maltiness you get with >25% Munich malt. 10% is nice though.

And if you're still experimenting with the style, adding too many variables makes it impossible to know what each malt contributed.

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I agree with what you are saying in principle, I really do. The Munich Dunkel I plan to brew is 94% Munich + Pilsner, with very small amounts of Caramunich and Carafa. That's it.

That Dunkel recipe is one that silvered in NHC last year, and it's 68% Munich. I had a couple bottles of that batch (it's a friend's recipe), and I think that it may be the best homebrew I've ever had.

I suppose I'm saying that I *do* like that intense maltiness. Again, I'm using Daniels' book for a lot of the guidance, but coupled with some of the feedback I've gotten, I think that my currently revised grain bill is pretty darned close to where I want it. I'm now above 86% base grains.

Now, if it's not quite right... yeah, I'll have to revise. The thing that seems the biggest mystery to me is getting the right balance in those base grains. Again, though, it seems there are multiple ways to skin this cat - the top medaling beers in this category seem to have a very wide spread of percentages on these.

So right now, I'm going a little on gut. This probably won't be the "perfect" Oktoberfest (my buddy who brewed the Dunkel is looking at his sixth attempt for that perfect O-fest), but I feel like it will be a good beer. At this point, I'm more worried about my process than anything else.


All of that said and done... I really appreciate the continued feedback. I do keep turning numbers over in my head. For one, I think that I'm going to mash at 150 degrees instead of the 152 I posted. I still may do a few other small tweaks.

Thanks!

A couple of questions as I make what may be final tweaks to this recipe.

What do you think about dropping regular crystal malt completely in favor of a little bit of Caramunich? I know that it's very similar, but from what I understand, Caramunich is a little less sweet, a little more malty.

What do you think about aromatic versus melanoiden malt?


Thanks!

Caramunich is a good idea over crystal. Good idea to keep your total crystal at 3-4%.

With aromatic malt, you have to be really careful - it's really strong and I've ruined beer by using too much. A couple percent is fine though. But it seems to me that melanoidin is more commonly used in this style, although I've never used it.

After brewing o'fests for near 20 yrs, I'd really suggest keeping your grain bill to 3 grains, or else you'll never learn what each is contributing. I wish somebody had told me that when I started. I know you won't follow this, but think about it for the future.

homebrewdad said:

A couple of questions as I make what may be final tweaks to this recipe.

What do you think about dropping regular crystal malt completely in favor of a little bit of Caramunich? I know that it's very similar, but from what I understand, Caramunich is a little less sweet, a little more malty.

What do you think about aromatic versus melanoiden malt?


Thanks!

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I would second what SpeedYellow had to say. CaraMunich is crystal malt but it's European and made from European barley so it will be a much better choice in a Continental lager than domestic or British crystal. Melanoiden would also be the preference between that and aromatic but again don't overdo it. If you use the right base malts they aren't going to need much in the way of help.

Thanks for the continued feedback!

This has been a good thread to read as I'm preparing my first O'fest. I've never been a big fan of Caramel-y beers, but from referencing a couple of books and listening to a podcast, assumed the traditional, darker O'Fest needed at least 10% Caramunich/Caramel.

Does anyone know if the newer, lighter O'Fests that they're doing in Germany are not only lower in Munich %, but also in Crystal %? I've heard them described as a slightly maltier Helles or Dortmunder. Those are not beers with caramel.

My planned grain bill is 50% pils, 31% vienna, 12% munich, and 3.5% Caramunich I and 3.5% Carapils. It's coming in just over 7 SRM at the low end of the style guideline.

Planning to mash at 150 like I do for most of my beers.

Omahawk said:

This has been a good thread to read as I'm preparing my first O'fest. I've never been a big fan of Caramel-y beers, but from referencing a couple of books and listening to a podcast, assumed the traditional, darker O'Fest needed at least 10% Caramunich/Caramel.

Does anyone know if the newer, lighter O'Fests that they're doing in Germany are not only lower in Munich %, but also in Crystal %? I've heard them described as a slightly maltier Helles or Dortmunder. Those are not beers with caramel.

My planned grain bill is 50% pils, 31% vienna, 12% munich, and 3.5% Caramunich I and 3.5% Carapils. It's coming in just over 7 SRM at the low end of the style guideline.

Planning to mash at 150 like I do for most of my beers.

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If you're looking for something along the lines of the modern German versions I'd go with Vienna malt for the majority of the base. Maybe 60% Vienna, 20% Pils, 15% German light Munich and 5% for your crystal malt(s) if so inclined.

Omahawk said:

...
Does anyone know if the newer, lighter O'Fests that they're doing in Germany are not only lower in Munich %, but also in Crystal %? I've heard them described as a slightly maltier Helles or Dortmunder. Those are not beers with caramel..

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There's very little distinction between current Oktoberfest beers and a typical German helles. Some may say they're one and the same. You could always just add 7-10% Munich to a Helles to make a more current O'fest if you want malty.

This thread continues to be a source of excellent advice.

I swapped emails with my local brewing buddy and got his, input, too.

I'm revising my recipe further, will post an updated version soon.

BigEd said:

If you're looking for something along the lines of the modern German versions I'd go with Vienna malt for the majority of the base. Maybe 60% Vienna, 20% Pils, 15% German light Munich and 5% for your crystal malt(s) if so inclined.

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Never done Vienna as the main base malt. Is it closer to Pils than Munich in flavor? I know it is in color.

(Sorry to hijack this thread)

Omahawk said:

Never done Vienna as the main base malt. Is it closer to Pils than Munich in flavor? I know it is in color.

(Sorry to hijack this thread)

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I'd say that Vienna is closer to Munich in flavor than it is to Pils. Vienna is more malty in flavor and aroma. Pils is crisper, Vienna is warmer, if that makes sense.

In some ways, you could say it was kind of a midpoint between Pils and Munich.

As for hijacking? Psh. We are still talking Oktoberfest, are we not? My recipe, your recipe... it's good feedback for us all, I think.

I also would take away the crystal and replace it with 2 ounces of Special B and 3-4 ounces of Melanoidin Malt.
I would also reduce late hop additions. You want an Ofest balanced not hoppy

Okay, I have once again edited the original recipe. I considered swapping the pilsner for continental 2-row, but went against that.

What I have done:

• Dropped the specialty grains percentage from almost 20% to less than 14%.
• Removed the crystal malt in favor of Caramuncih (which is still crystal, I know, but should be maltier and less sweet)
• Removed the aromatic malt.
• Added Melanoiden malt to round out the flavor (is supposed to mimic some of the qualities of a decoction mash) and bump the color
• Added one ounce of chocolate malt

I know that last item will probably have the traditional guys up in arms (I'm sure my brewing buddy would feel the same).

One of the award winning recipes that Designing Great Beers examined used an ounce of chocolate malt. At one ounce, there shouldn't be a meaningful flavor addition, but I do get a nice color bump (which is why I added it).

Go ahead, throw rocks at me.

Whoa, I thought you were reducing the crystal?! IMHO 13% crystal, cara, and melanoidin is way too much going on. I think you'll regret that, but hey let us know... maybe you'll love it. I find Munich malt sooooo malty (esp. at 25%+) that any more unfermentables would be unbalanced to my palette. But if you want really sweet, you're on the right track.

Sure, the chocolate is inappropriate, but I'm not so sure chocolate is really any different than a Carafa I/II/III which is fine. OTOH, it's really not needed for this beer since the flavor simply doesn't fit.

SpeedYellow said:

Whoa, I thought you were reducing the crystal?! IMHO 13% crystal, cara, and melanoidin is way too much going on. I think you'll regret that, but hey let us know... maybe you'll love it. I find Munich malt sooooo malty (esp. at 25%+) that any more unfermentables would be totally unbalanced to my palette.

Sure, the chocolate is inappropriate, but I'm not so sure chocolate is really any different than a Carafa I/II/III which is fine. OTOH, it's really not needed for this beer since the flavor simply doesn't fit.

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Well, I almost view the carapils as a pass. It's not a crystal malt, and shouldn't add any real flavor contribution.

I am leaning towards dropping that melanoiden to a half pound and bouncing that back onto a base grain.

I agree with the chocolate malt point, but I really don't think it'll be anything more than a color impact at one ounce.

Let's not kid anybody, I'll likely tinker with percentages of specialty grains for the next couple of weeks until I finally order what I need for the recipe. I do think, however, that I'm pretty set in stone with the high percentages of Munich and Vienna. I enjoy the intense maltiness that you get from a high percentage of Munich.

Now, I may make something that's just too darned malty, I suppose... at which point, I will come back and own it so that you all will have the opportunity to point, laugh, and say that you told me so.

One more thought: go try a Rogue Dead Guy -- it's a similar recipe to what you're making. It's basically 25% Munich, 10% crystal, and the rest pils/2-row. I find it poorly balanced; too malty and sweet. So realize your beer will be more malty AND sweeter. Hopefully that's what you want.

homebrewdad said:

Well, I almost view the carapils as a pass. It's not a crystal malt, and shouldn't add any real flavor contribution...

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Not a crystal malt? I've always understood it to be virtually a crystal malt that will add sweetness.

SpeedYellow said:

Not a crystal malt? I've always understood it to be virtually a crystal malt that will add sweetness.

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This was a good read about Carapils:

What is Carapils?

SpeedYellow said:

Not a crystal malt? I've always understood it to be virtually a crystal malt that will add sweetness.

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If that's the case, then this post alone provided some invaluable education. I understood carapils to be good for body and head retention, but to be pretty neutral in terms of flavor.

I do not want another half pound of sweetness here, so another revision is certainly coming.

Thanks much.

homebrewdad said:

If that's the case, then this post alone provided some invaluable education. I understood carapils to be good for body and head retention, but to be pretty neutral in terms of flavor.

I do not want another half pound of sweetness here, so another revision is certainly coming.

Thanks much.

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I have done lots of pale ales with and without carapils. I've never noticed that it added a significant amount of flavor to any of my beers. Pretty much a mouthfeel element and that's it.

That being said, it is an unfermentable and will add more dextrin to the finished beer in addition to the crystals you've already added.

Omahawk said:

I have done lots of pale ales with and without carapils. I've never noticed that it added a significant amount of flavor to any of my beers. Pretty much a mouthfeel element and that's it.

That being said, it is an unfermentable and will add more dextrin to the finished beer in addition to the crystals you've already added.

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This is what I was thinking. I need to study on this more.

I'm having trouble keeping track of all the changes. What's the current recipe? My homebrew club is having an Octoberfest comp and I'm looking for tips too. It's a style I'm not very familiar with.

homebrewdad said:

If that's the case, then this post alone provided some invaluable education. I understood carapils to be good for body and head retention, but to be pretty neutral in terms of flavor.

I do not want another half pound of sweetness here, so another revision is certainly coming.

Thanks much.

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Actually we mostly agree. Yes, it's supposed to be neutral in flavor, but that's referring to toffee or malty or grainy or chocolatey etc. I understand that it does add sweetness, which some may refer to as body ("body" is kind of vague).

The BYO article posted above supports what I'm saying. It's considered a crystal malt.

kingwood-kid said:

I'm having trouble keeping track of all the changes. What's the current recipe? My homebrew club is having an Octoberfest comp and I'm looking for tips too. It's a style I'm not very familiar with.

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I update post #1 as I make changes to the recipe. What's there is the most recent one I have. I keep fiddling with it, though. Also note that I am shooting for a malty, darker interpretation of the style.

I'm reading a lot of conflicting info on carapils, by the way. What don't want is tons of plain sweetness like you get from crystal malts. As I understand it, caramunich (even though it certainly is a crystal malt) has more of a malty as opposed to sweet flavor profile.

I read a lot of "carapils brings nothing but some body to the beer" as well as several "carapils can add sweetness". Hrm.

Okay, edited yet again.

Reduced the melanoiden malt to 8 oz.
Increased the Vienna malt to 3 lb 8 oz.
Increased the chocolate malt to 1.5 oz. (this adjusted color up to 11.4)

Base grains are now 88.1% of the grist.

The chocolate malt will again make some purists annoyed with me. That's okay.

My impression is that this will be a massive malt bomb of a beer. I truly do not think that it will be cloyingly sweet, however. Some will certainly disagree; again, though, this style is really wide open for interpretation.

Some would prefer to build the vast bulk of the recipe from Pils or 2 row, keeping the Munich under 25%. That's fine.

Some would like to see Vienna as the dominant grain, with Munich in a supporting role. More power to them!

I really like Munich. I've had a Dunkel with almost 69% of the grist coming from it. I feel like I should have a big, solid malt backbone with this beer without it being too heavy.

But again, I may be nuts. We'll just have to see, I guess.

I think that I am very, very close to my final recipe composition.