MO Centennial Pale Ale: Feedback?

Hey y'all...

Looking for a little feedback on my next planned beer, which is a pale ale that's inspired by Two Hearted, but isn't really like Two Hearted (if you know what I mean). Here's the plan:

Recipe Type: All Grain BIAB
Yeast: Harvested Bell's House Ale Yeast
Yeast Starter: 1.5L
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons
Original Gravity: 1.056
Final Gravity: 1.011 (~80% attenuation based on feedback from Bell's)
ABV: 5.93%
IBU: 38
Boiling Time: 60 minutes
SRM: 8.67

Grain Bill
10 lbs Maris Otter [91%]
0.5 lbs Crystal 40L [4.5%]
0.5 lbs Victory [4.5%]

Mash Schedule
60-minute full-volume mash at 151F

Hop Schedule
1 oz Centennial Pellet (9 AA) - 20 min [19.81]
1 oz Centennial Pellet (9 AA) - 10 min [11.86]
1 oz Centennial Pellet (9 AA) - 5 min [6.52]
1 oz Centennial Pellet (9 AA) - 0 min

Primary Fermentation: 59F basement. Pitch at 66F and let temp fall until fermentation starts. Raise to 69F in aquarium heater bath after initial fermentation ends and hold for 14 days

Secondary Fermentation: None

Basically what I'm going for is something that has that strong Centennial character that Two Hearted has, but without the bitterness, and with more of a malt backbone. I'm thinking that the MO will help give it that full-flavored malty balance I'm trying to get. I've never been much of an IPA guy, and as I've been tasting more of them recently I'm realizing that I really like that maltiness that I think seems to be missing in many IPAs. Not enough balance for me.

I'm going to hold off on the dry hops for this one, as I want to see how it works without it. I do want this to be fairly hop-forward through, which is why I'm going with all late additions. If this turns out well, I might try the same recipe in the future, with the only change being a dry hop addition.

So...what do you folks think?

I think it looks pretty solid. If you want to maximize your hop flavor without the jaw clenching bitterness, I'd add another oz or two at flameout and do a hopstand. I do hopstands for every one of my IPAs and other hoppy beers now. Gives it an amazing nose and imparts more flavor that I initially thought

m00ps said:

I think it looks pretty solid. If you want to maximize your hop flavor without the jaw clenching bitterness, I'd add another oz or two at flameout and do a hopstand. I do hopstands for every one of my IPAs and other hoppy beers now. Gives it an amazing nose and imparts more flavor that I initially thought

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Cool. I'll be honest - I don't know what a hopstand is, but I'll look into it. I'm OK with some bitterness, but I don't want to overdo it since the little lady would like to be able to drink some and she's not terribly keen on high bitterness herself. Gotta keep her on my side in this, ya know...

I'll probably brew this over Christmas time once my carboy is freed up. Hoping to get some of the fruity esters out of the Bell's yeast based on the info one of the brewers there gave me. Could be quite nice if I go about it the right way.

I've used WY1272 for my 2-Hearted clone and was very happy with the results. Saves you from growing the dregs.

Making it maltier with the MO is a nice option. Alternatively you could add some biscuit (0.5-1#) to Pale Malt or 2-row.

I made a 100% MO variety of Great Lakes Christmas Ale and it came out very malty. I liked it, and thought it offered a better backbone for the spice, but my wife isn't crazy about malt, so I ended up drinking most of it.

IslandLizard said:

I've used WY1272 for my 2-Hearted clone and was very happy with the results. Saves you from growing the dregs.

Making it maltier with the MO is a nice option. Alternatively you could add some biscuit (0.5-1#) to Pale Malt or 2-row.

I made a 100% MO variety of Great Lakes Christmas Ale and it came out very malty. I liked it, and thought it offered a better backbone for the spice, but my wife isn't crazy about malt, so I ended up drinking most of it.

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Thanks for the response, IslandLizard.

My initial plans for my last beer and this one was to try 1272, but I ended up harvesting and culturing the dregs from a six-pack of Two Hearted before my last brewday. After pitching into that beer, I had enough yeast to set aside an approximately 25 ml-thick cake to use in a starter for this beer. Gotta love cheap, quality yeast!

I have a 55-lb bag of MO already, so I figure I'll go with that. Good ideas on a good substitute for future brews though!

I feel terrible that you had to finish off all that beer by yourself...

I suppose my one major concern is this beer becoming a little too "juicy." Valid concern, or is my hop bill small enough to keep from getting that almost cloying juiciness?

Brew_G said:

Thanks for the response, IslandLizard.

My initial plans for my last beer and this one was to try 1272, but I ended up harvesting and culturing the dregs from a six-pack of Two Hearted before my last brewday. After pitching into that beer, I had enough yeast to set aside an approximately 25 ml-thick cake to use in a starter for this beer. Gotta love cheap, quality yeast!

I have a 55-lb bag of MO already, so I figure I'll go with that. Good ideas on a good substitute for future brews though!

I feel terrible that you had to finish off all that beer by yourself...

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Ah, you're all set then.

That cultured yeast can last you a lifetime if you keep it going. Holding a bit back each time you make a starter is the technique I've been using, so you always have 1st-generation rejuvenated yeast on hand. I think Bell's house yeast is pretty good, nice and clean, so you got that part down. No dregs for me, Bell's doesn't get distributed in my region, last time I checked.

m00ps said:

I think it looks pretty solid. If you want to maximize your hop flavor without the jaw clenching bitterness, I'd add another oz or two at flameout and do a hopstand. I do hopstands for every one of my IPAs and other hoppy beers now. Gives it an amazing nose and imparts more flavor that I initially thought

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I agree on the hopstand.

My hop schedule was:
1.3 oz FWH
1.3 oz 15 min
1.3 oz 5 min
1.3 oz 30 min aroma steep/hopstand @190°F.

60 min boil.

I had upped the original 1 oz hops amounts by a third to compensate for their age, they were 2012 crop, but always deep frozen. After 6 days it came out very fragrant and slightly bitter. Gravity was still a bit high at 1.018 but I think it was perfect at that point, and could have finished the bucket right there and then. It was slightly naturally carbonated too.

I let it go for another week and kegged at FG 1.012. But... the early samples (FG 1.018 after 6 days) just tasted better, more yummy aromatic and citrusy.

So I dry hopped with 1 oz in a suspended sock in the keg until kicked. However, the dry hopping also added a bit of a hop bite that I didn't care for, and doesn't belong there. The beer simply didn't have that indulgent smoothness anymore the early samples had and the real 2-Hearted has. It was slightly bitter, perhaps around 40-50 IBUs, close to calculated.

Next time I'll use a larger amount (2-2.5 oz) in the hopstand to compensate for the vanishing aroma.

Let us know how it turned out. Very curious.

Islandlizard, I am in NOVA and I have seen Bell's Two Hearted on the shelves here. I am almost positive of it, though I will double check today when I go out that way.

On the other hand, I love Centennial hops. I did a SMASH recently with not MO, but Munich instead. I didn't hop it as strongly either, only using two hops but after a round a month in the the keg (it's lasted a long time because I like it and wanted to drink it slow) it has a wonderfully balanced flavor. It will be interesting to read your tasting notes on the final product.

Schmoltsbeer said:

Islandlizard, I am in NOVA and I have seen Bell's Two Hearted on the shelves here. I am almost positive of it, though I will double check today when I go out that way.

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I just checked Bell's distro map again and while surrounded by states (e.g., VA, PA, "DC") having it, MD, WV, and NJ are still white territory.

So yeah, you're good there in NOVA, Bell's wise.

I wonder how different Bell's house/Two Hearted yeast is compared to say WY1272.

Bummer, good beer is meant to be shared!

Schmolts and Island...I'll definitely be following up once I get this brewed. I'm in steep-learning-curve territory right now (this will only be my fourth beer), so posting my observations and getting feedback is what I'm all about.

As for Bell's, it's interesting to see how their distribution plays out. DC and NoVA aren't very far away, so you could always make an hour drive to pick up some quality beers! The supermarkets around here generally carry at least two of their beers, and Total Wine carries four or five at any given time. Love it!

As for the yeast, there are a lot of theories about what yeast it actually is, but I think the strongest info is that Larry Bell started off using Wyeast 1056, but that after so many generations of reproduction, it's now taken on its own house characteristics. I had a good e-mail conversation with the folks at Bell's and they gave me the lowdown on what to expect from their yeast in terms of temps, esters, flocculation, etc. I've read that people get very good results on Bell's clones when using 1272 (and 1056), but of course you can't go wrong with harvesting the "real thing." Besides...it's just fun to harvest and keep!

Brew_G said:

Cool. I'll be honest - I don't know what a hopstand is, but I'll look into it. I'm OK with some bitterness, but I don't want to overdo it since the little lady would like to be able to drink some and she's not terribly keen on high bitterness herself. Gotta keep her on my side in this, ya know...

I'll probably brew this over Christmas time once my carboy is freed up. Hoping to get some of the fruity esters out of the Bell's yeast based on the info one of the brewers there gave me. Could be quite nice if I go about it the right way.

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A hopstand is basically the homebrew equivalent of a whirlpool addition. You add your flameout hops, cut the heat, cover the kettle (sanitized lid), and just let it sit for 20-30 min before cooling. The temperature will be hot enough to extract a large amount of hop compounds, but none will dissipate from boil off.

I would not worry at all about it being too juicy. Check out this hop bill for my current favorite IPA i've done. Its got like 3x the amount of hops and I still might add more. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/re-balanced-ipa-496003/

m00ps said:

A hopstand is basically the homebrew equivalent of a whirlpool addition. You add your flameout hops, cut the heat, cover the kettle (sanitized lid), and just let it sit for 20-30 min before cooling. The temperature will be hot enough to extract a large amount of hop compounds, but none will dissipate from boil off.

I would not worry at all about it being too juicy. Check out this hop bill for my current favorite IPA i've done. Its got like 3x the amount of hops and I still might add more. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/re-balanced-ipa-496003/

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Sweet. Pretty simple then.

On my last batch, I added an ounce of pellets at flameout in a hop bag, then left them in there for about 30 minutes or so. I chill with an ice bath and it took quite a while to cool down, so there was decent heat at the top of the wort where the bag was situated. I guess I may have gotten a pseudo-hopstand effect from it. I'll definitely give it a shot in this APA.

Your recipe looks insane! With just the 1.5 oz of Amarillo FWH, it definitely doesn't look bitter at all since you wouldn't get much, if any, bittering with all those late additions. My hop schedule pales in comparison!

I recently brewed an APA with a similar recipe to msg#1 with identical hop schedule. It was too much plant matter. Too juicy, too leafy. The malt character is completely overwhelmed with hops, and not in a nice way. It taught me a lesson about subtlety. Less is more sometimes.

A pro brewer friend advised that I remove either the 10 or 20 min addition, and try a small amount at 60 (10 ibu's or so) and try more at knockout, (hopstand, hopburst.)

I tried that. Much better. I still overdid the dry hops though (4 oz). Back to 2 oz next time.

But your preferences may differ. Give it a shot if you want. It'll still be beer.

..tj

100amps said:

I recently brewed an APA with a similar recipe to msg#1 with identical hop schedule. It was too much plant matter. Too juicy, too leafy. The malt character is completely overwhelmed with hops, and not in a nice way. It taught me a lesson about subtlety. Less is more sometimes.

A pro brewer friend advised that I remove either the 10 or 20 min addition, and try a small amount at 60 (10 ibu's or so) and try more at knockout, (hopstand, hopburst.)

I tried that. Much better. I still overdid the dry hops though (4 oz). Back to 2 oz next time.

But your preferences may differ. Give it a shot if you want. It'll still be beer.

..tj

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Thanks for the feedback. Did you dry hop the beer you thought was too juicy/leafy? I'm not planning to dry hop this one, so that would be a fairly big departure from my recipe.

I've been thinking of keeping the 4 oz of hops, but doing a FWH and reducing the 20- and 10-minute additions. I'd get similar (if smoother) bitterness, but a little less of the flavor.

Subscribing. Our Club got around 50lbs of Centennial 2012 (free!) from a local brewery and distributed it at the last meeting. I've proposed that we do an informal competition highlighting anything Centennial.
I've already got a couple recipes worked up, but this thread couldn't have been more timely. I'm a fan of MO as well, and just might have to do some recipe tweaking based on comments here.
Great feedback!

I brewed this today with a little tweak on the hop schedule. Otherwise, it wasn't too much different than the original plan other than that it's no longer a single hop beer. I'm just looking for a little more earthiness/resin from the Columbus.

0.67 oz Columbus (12.9) - FWH
1.00 oz Centennial (9) - 15 min
1.00 oz Centennial - 5 min
1.5 oz Centennial - 0 mi
0.50 oz Columbus - 0 min

I also went with 6 oz of C20 and C60, along with 4 oz of Victory. Figured it might give it a little depth of sweetness along with a little breadiness.

I do an ice bath chill, so I adjusted my additions by pushing everything to the right by 5-10 minutes. I pitched at 64 and have it in a 10-gallon bucket with an aquarium heater.

OG came to 1.060, so it was a little higher than expected, but I'm pretty sure I didn't sparge quite enough. No big deal though. Active fermentation is underway, and I'm hoping to keep things under control with the aquarium heater.

Hopefully this turns out...

Bottled yesterday, and things seem to have turned out pretty well so far. FG was 1.011, which is just slightly less than expected (1.012), for an ABV of 6.3%, and it was pretty clean and clear. The Bell's yeast made easy work of that wort. Main fermentation was at 69F, then came down to 64F for about 12 hours as it slowed, so I ramped temp up to 68F for 5-6 days, after which I set it to 70F for another 5-6 days. I then cold crashed for two days prior to bottling. Total fermentation time was just under three weeks. Having the aquarium heater and tub made a massive difference in how I could work this beer.

The flavors in the FG sample were really clean with barely a hint of fruitiness from the yeast (a little disappointing), and not an overwhelming hoppiness by any means. Aroma was OK, and bitterness was about where I wanted it. Overall, I'm very pleased with this so far. I'm looking forward to pouring a pint of this in a couple weeks!

I had my first bottle of this one (actually, it was two) this past weekend, and it turned out really close to what I was hoping! This definitely walks the line between IPA and APA, which is perfectly OK with me. The aroma is pretty nice, if a little understated, but it definitely had a "Two-Heartedness" about it. It doesn't have the full aroma of Two Hearted, but the flavor - especially on the back end - is pretty close. Color is very similar, as well. I wasn't shooting for a clone, but I'm glad that I got the similarities I was hoping for.

There's a chill haze, but I honestly don't care much about it. It's crystal clear in looking through the bottle, which is all I really care about at this point. I'm still dialing in my process, so I'm just trying to make little improvements each time I brew.

Another update:

I had some buddies try it last weekend, and it went over really well. One is more of a lager/wit drinker, and he liked it. And the first words from another, who is a huge hophead and (currently inactive) homebrewer, were "I could drink this all night." Part of the enjoyment in this hobby (as with cooking) is seeing other people enjoy something that I've created. Awesome feeling! :rockin:

Basically, as this beer has conditioned, it's developed a pretty complex flavor that is driving me to drink it far faster than I expected. Any alcohol bite and bitterness has mellowed a lot, so the beer is remarkably smooth. It's got a fantastic, if slightly muted, sweetness that isn't overly malty (if that makes sense), so perhaps the fermentation temps brought that out of the yeast.

I'm really enjoying the process of drinking this beer, all the way from sticking my nose in the glass, to the taste on all sides of my tongue, to the little tingle in my lips and nose when I finish that first one. THIS is what I was hoping to experience when I started brewing!! :rockin:

Nice pic! I think the haze looks cool on the amber oranger beers.

HomeDrewBrew said:

Nice pic! I think the haze looks cool on the amber oranger beers.

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Thanks!

I agree - looks really nice with the light shining through it. It's a bit darker in regular light, but it bothers me no tin the least.

The glass is one of a set of four that the little lady got me for Christmas. Awesome gift - perfect for home brew!