Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

One more update.

I'm so glad I didn't trash this batch because it came out amazing! Easily the best IPA I've done by far, and my first HT clone that actually uses Conan. FG at kegging was 1.011, and now that we're carbed up, the aroma is thick with tropical fruits, and the flavor goes deep and dank. I have to attribute most of the hop profile to the hop tea I did- what a difference that made. I could have cut the hops by 25-50% and it still would have been amazing. Thanks to all who commented!

I'm on to a Czech pilsner, and a nice English bitter now.

I just brewed this on Saturday (2/22/14) as an extract recipe I converted using Beer Smith along with GigaYeast Vermont IPA yeast.

I created a starter with the GigaYeast, even though they claim it's not necessary since it contains 200 Billion cells, and it went NUTS.

This morning (Tue 2/25) the air lock was moving very slow after popping like mad for the last couple of days. I'll have to take a reading later and see where I stand but that was some speedy fermenting! I guess when you send in the whole army instead of just a few battalions you get the job done faster!

Here's hoping I can enjoy something close to Heady over here in Ohio!

ianmatth said:

I had more boil off than I expected (only 3.2 gallons after boil off) and hit 1.073 OG on the dot, so I didn't end up adding any sugar.

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this will change your beer. because your OG is all malt and no sugar, you'll end up with maltier, fuller beer that might attenuate a few points higher than it would have with some sucrose. HT is relatively light and the body stays out of the way of the hops because of the use of sugar.

next time, if you want to stick to the recipe, what you could have done is at the end of the boil, add the sugar then add boiling water until your OG was back to 1.073 (or whatever your target is). but certainly nothing wrong with making your beer a bit maltier!

My first Heady clone finished at 1.005 and my last clone finished at 1.008, so I'm pretty sure this will finish under 1.010. Only 4 points of the OG come from the sugar anyway, so if someone gets 80% attenuation on the malt, it should make less than a point difference in gravity. Adding water at the end is a bad idea, as a partial boil kills IBUs and that is the last thing you want to do with an IPA.

I've added the first 2 dry hops so far for the Conan vs WLP090 Heady clones and I am pretty sure there is going to be a big difference between them since there was a big difference between my yeast starter beers. I always save the beer from my yeast starters and dry-hop them. I end up with a ~4% ABV beer that gives me a good idea of what the hop contributed as a dry hop. I dry hopped both the Conan and WLP090 beers with Kohatu this time (I knew what it contributed, so I was mainly trying to finish it off.) There was a huge difference between the Conan starter beer and the WLP090 starter beer. The Conan starter beer had a very definitive lemon taste. At first I thought it was from the Kohatu since Southern Hemisphere hops have a bit of that lemon taste, but it was clearly from the Conan because the WLP090 starter beer didn't have that taste at all. It tasted a lot more like a normal beer and was very bland compared to the Conan starter beer. So while some people describe the Conan taste as peach or apricot, I would have to say it is more lemon. I'm sure a heavier beer that used a lot more hops would have had a much more balanced taste and I can really see how that lemon taste would accentuate a highly hopped beer. I also kept my temperature under 70 the whole time so there was absolutely no Belgian taste from the Conan yeast. I'll report back the difference when the Heady clones are finished.

interview with John Kimmich

There are some excellent revelations from Kimmich in the Chop & Brew video, around the 58:00 mark, as I recall.

Rivenin said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdfySDN2mF0

interview with John Kimmich

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Interesting. I find his comment about dry hopping for no more than 5 days pretty spot on. I did a split batch IPA a while back, and dry hopped half for 5 days, and the other half for 10. The easy winner was the 5 day dry hop, with the 10 day having some gnarly off flavoring that was rather off putting. It was still drinkable, but by aging it, it helped dissipate most of them.

Also, his confirming that he uses c02 hop extract for bittering is definitely a correct one when making this clone.

Such a cool guy

zardozap said:

Interesting. I find his comment about dry hopping for no more than 5 days pretty spot on. I did a split batch IPA a while back, and dry hopped half for 5 days, and the other half for 10. The easy winner was the 5 day dry hop, with the 10 day having some gnarly off flavoring that was rather off putting. It was still drinkable, but by aging it, it helped dissipate most of them.

Also, his confirming that he uses c02 hop extract for bittering is definitely a correct one when making this clone.

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At one point he mentioned that he does not boil hops (uses co2 hop extract), but then later on he says that late hops and whirlpool hops is where the flavor is. Do you think the 5 minute additions are on target or do you think he truly does not boil at all, or just uses more co2 hop extract late?

CoolDaddy said:

At one point he mentioned that he does not boil hops (uses co2 hop extract), but then later on he says that late hops and whirlpool hops is where the flavor is. Do you think the 5 minute additions are on target or do you think he truly does not boil at all, or just uses more co2 hop extract late?

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I think he was strictly saying that for bittering the best method is C02 hop extract. As for flavor and aroma at one point he said he uses hop pellets, and not leaf hops, so I'm guessing he's talking about using them as late additions, whirlpooling and maybe even hop stands. Obviously there are some techniques he doesn't want to give away, and I totally get that.

If the idea is to accurately clone a commercial beer, sometimes processes need to be changed to have the same effect.

To me, the most enlightening thing he sad was that it takes 50 minutes to chill the wort for them. That means that all those hops (flameout or otherwise) are sitting in the whirlpool. Even if they're settled at the bottom, there's still some effect.
for home brewers who chill relatively quickly (3 mins with a terminator in the winter, or 25 mins with an IC in the summer), we need not worry about what the brewer sys about his process and merely copy it. I think that is the wrong approach. We need to copy the effect it has on the wort/beer.


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My whirlpool hops are best when I chill to 180 and then add them for 20-40 minutes. I use pellets. This is the best flavor an aroma I can produce after several variations.

For dry hopping, I use 3-4 days as my timetable. No polyphenol extraction that I can really detect this way.


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I've been doing even longer hopstands, up to six hours, with great results. I agree with four days dry hopping as well

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Petekiteworld said:

I've been doing even longer hopstands, up to six hours, with great results. I agree with four days dry hopping as well

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6 hour hop stands? What are you really gaining in the extra 5 hours? Assuming of course youre doing a 1 hour stand.

The video had a lot of good information.

I'm still making my way through the video, but a couple things jumped out at me.

He said to keep the pH between 5.1 and 5.3. Is that at mash temp or room temp? I'm assuming mash temp, which would be around 5.4-5.6. Is that correct?

He also says to keep the hardness below 350 ppm. Is he talking about the bicarbonate level?

^ that threw me off. I was always under the impression that an IPA at 5.4 make the hops stand out. However I've also heard Matt Brynildson say that nothing goes over 5.4 in his brewhouse..

Yeah, I've been targeting 5.4 room temp mash pH because in the Brun Water spreadsheet says ideal range is 5.3-5.5 and 5.4 is right in the middle of that range

I've also heard Martin say:

To help bring out the hopping and bitterness, it is important to keep the wort pH around 5.4. If the pH is much lower than that, the hop expression will be muted.

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mtnagel said:

I'm still making my way through the video, but a couple things jumped out at me.

He said to keep the pH between 5.1 and 5.3. Is that at mash temp or room temp? I'm assuming mash temp, which would be around 5.4-5.6. Is that correct?

He also says to keep the hardness below 350 ppm. Is he talking about the bicarbonate level?

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I believe he would be referring to the pH at room temp as that how it is usually described. I wouldn't be distracted too much by the minor contradiction with some of the advice given in the brew science threads.

I think I'm going to brew it again this week and try it with WLP006.

I brewed this about 4 weeks ago. I used this recipe:

==============================================

(from page 1 of this thread)

Current Best Clone

Current Clone

Heady Topper Clone Recipe Attempt 4

Batch Size: 5.00 gal

Boil Size: 6.47

11lb 4oz Pearl Malt (84.9%)- SRM 2.4
12 oz Caramalt (5.7%)- SRM 17
12 oz White Wheat (5.7%)- SRM 1.7
8 oz Turbinado Sugar (3.8%)- Added at flameout.
Mash at 150 degrees for 60 minutes.

Boil Time: 90 min

10.00 ml** *Hopshot- Boil 90.0 min- 117.8 IBUs (I used hop pellets & part of a hopshot for this)
1.00 oz*** Simcoe[13.00 %] Boil 5.0 min-8.3 IBUs
0.50 oz** *Apollo- Boil 5.0 min -4.0 IBUs (I used Columbus)
1.00 oz** *Columbus [14.00 %] Boil 0.0 min – 0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz** *Simcoe [13.00 %] Boil 0.0 min -0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz** *Columbus [14.00 %] Aroma Steep 30.0 min-0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz** *Simcoe [13.00 %] Aroma Steep 30.0 min-0.0 IBUs
1.00oz** *Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] Aroma Steep 30.0 min-0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz** *Centennial [10.50 %] Aroma Steep 30.0 min- 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz** *Apollo [12.50 %] Aroma Steep 30.0 min- 0.0 IBUs (I used Columbus)
1.00 oz** *Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] Dry Hop 8.0 Days-0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz** *Simcoe [13.00 %] Dry Hop 8.0 Days -0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz** *Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] Dry Hop 8.0 Days-0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz** *Centennial [10.50 %] Dry Hop 8.0 Days-0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz** *Apollo [17.00 %] Dry Hop 8.0 Days-0.0 IBUs (I used Columbus)

Split dry hop in half and add half on day 14 and day 21. Carb on day 25.


Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.073 SG** *Measured Original Gravity: 1.073 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG** *Measured Final Gravity: 1.010 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.8 %** *Actual Alcohol by Vol: 8.5 %
Bitterness: 130.7 IBUs** *Calories: 249.4 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 6.4 SRM

==============================================

I could not get Apollo locally so I substituted Columbus. I used EDME dry ale yeast. My final gravity was low (final volume was high) so I added an extra pound of corn sugar to make up for the difference.

So, 10 days in the bottle and it is fantastic. I took a bottle to the local homebrew store and comments ranged from "Good job!" to "Where can I buy a growler of this?".

Because I added extra corn sugar to me this came out a little on the dry side, compared to the real thing. The aroma and flavor are great. I had Heady once and it's hard to remember what came out of the can, but this is in the right ballpark. I wish I had another can of Heady to compare mine against.

I will brew this again, it is great stuff. I have Apollo hops for next time, and I have arranged to get Conan yeast. We will see how big of a difference these 2 changes make. Cheers!

^ That link isn't working for me.

thx

showcow said:

If the idea is to accurately clone a commercial beer, sometimes processes need to be changed to have the same effect.

To me, the most enlightening thing he sad was that it takes 50 minutes to chill the wort for them. That means that all those hops (flameout or otherwise) are sitting in the whirlpool. Even if they're settled at the bottom, there's still some effect.
for home brewers who chill relatively quickly (3 mins with a terminator in the winter, or 25 mins with an IC in the summer), we need not worry about what the brewer sys about his process and merely copy it. I think that is the wrong approach. We need to copy the effect it has on the wort/beer.


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This exactly, and also when he mentions getting your ingredients from different suppliers. Simcoe from one region will taste slightly different than Simcoe from somewhere else. Malt produced by one malster will taste different than the same malt produced by another set malsters. There are just so many factors, so do what you can with your own setup to recreate it to the best of your ability. I love accepting those challenges, it's what keeps me going.

Yeah sorry that is an old link, I will remove that. The recipe is on page 1 of this thread.

One other observation. When I did my whirlpool I used a hop bag and put the chiller in there right away to sanitize. I was hoping to not carry too much junk to the fermenter. That did not work so well. And having the chiller coils in the whirlpool was kind of awkward too.

I have since done a second whirlpool with no hop bag and no chiller, much better! I took my copper chiller and filled a second pot with starsan. When the hop stand was over I just pulled the chiller out, hooked it up and away I go.

brewski09 said:

My whirlpool hops are best when I chill to 180 and then add them for 20-40 minutes. I use pellets. This is the best flavor an aroma I can produce after several variations.

For dry hopping, I use 3-4 days as my timetable. No polyphenol extraction that I can really detect this way.


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Agree with the 180f. It's what I use but am interested about sub 170f additions. I do 180f for 30m but haven't experimented much with sub 170 or more than 30m hop stand/ whirlpools. Just did a Heady clone with 180f as all my late post boil additions. To me it seems solid to the original.


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I am doing the byo clone today. Only difference is it's just pale, caravienne and turbinado


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I bought some Vermont Ale Yeast from The Yeast Bay yesterday.

I got some Vermont ale yeast as well. I'm looking forward to brewing this. Do you guys feel it is pretty close right now? Also, there's so many hops in this. What is your average cost for this brew?


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xMalachi said:

I got some Vermont ale yeast as well. I'm looking forward to brewing this. Do you guys feel it is pretty close right now? Also, there's so many hops in this. What is your average cost for this brew?


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Buy hops in bulk. You'll end up spending a fair bit on hops for this, if you end up buying 1oz packs at a time.

xMalachi, I just bought all the ingredients via Northern Brewer and Salt City (for the yeast). All in with shipping it cost about $80-$85 for a 5 gallon batch.

on morebeer, I picked up all the ingredients on the BYO article (sub pale malt for pearl and sans conan) 85 for a 10gallon batch. Free shipping. I know pearl is important when it comes to this, but with it it went up to about 120-130.

So I brewed a heady topper based on the Bear Flavored recipe which was the BYO based recipe. I did pitch with US05 because I can't get heady yeast where I'm at. So I fermented at 57f to start and slowly brought up to 62f. I'd read hat low ferm temps on US05 produce peachy esters, which would compliment the heady topper profile. Well , I can report back that it's a fine imperial IPA and looks the part too. Aroma is lacking but mouthfeel and flavor are great. I guess the heady yeast does give some differences in the aroma. Anyway, here's a pic. I am pleased with this beer.




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kchomebrew said:

So I brewed a heady topper based on the Bear Flavored recipe which was the BYO based recipe. I did pitch with US05 because I can't get heady yeast where I'm at. So I fermented at 57f to start and slowly brought up to 62f. I'd read hat low ferm temps on US05 produce peachy esters, which would compliment the heady topper profile. Well , I can report back that it's a fine imperial IPA and looks the part too. Aroma is lacking but mouthfeel and flavor are great. I guess the heady yeast does give some differences in the aroma. Anyway, here's a pic. I am pleased with this beer.

View attachment 186620


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It looks good from here. I'd drink it!!

How in the world is it lacking in aroma?? All those hops!

I know it's a drop in the bucket of a 200-page megathread at this point, but John has mentioned in interviews that he dropped all wheat from his beers because of his wife's intolerance to gluten. This is why his Celia Saison was sold off to Mercury brewing in Ipswich.

Just a thought.

Source:

It wouldn't let me post the time-stamped link, but he starts talking about it around 36 minutes in.

Hmm. There is plenty of gluten in barley.

I'm going to attempt to go through this mega thread in the next couple of weeks.
I've never had this brew before, but sounds like its great stuff.
What I'll mostly be looking for is people who've done a side by side comparison, or who have at least tasted the commercial brew in comparison with the homebrew and can comment on how close it comes and what differences there are.
The "I brewed this and its great, not quite the real thing but I liked it" comments are fine, but hoping its worth perusing the entire thread to look for a critical analysis of the output or beer, not just the input and recipe formulation. After all, the thread is about cloning the best beer in the world (If you trust BA ratings).
That said, I am armed with the basic BYO recipe and have studied the article. The recipe on page 1 has some significant differences, and looks like the thread began prior to publication of the article. Going to try and dive into the thread tonight after work.

TD


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Well the relative gluten content of barley is much lower in barley compared to wheat. But that is neither here nor there, what really matters is that John Kimmich doesn't use wheat in any of his beers. Whether or not his science is sound isn't that important to me, he brews without wheat and his wife can drink his beer now.

Also heady topper is pretty great, and barely overrated.

Celia is a gluten free beer, so selling it off to another company because his wife is gluten intolerant doesn't make sense

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Yeah sorry, that first explanation sucked.

She's gluten-intolerant, and found that she only had digestive issues with beers containing wheat as an ingredient. The relatively small amounts of gluten in barley beers were tolerable to her and John isn't crazy about wheat to begin with. Celia is entirely gluten-free and he found it not to be worth his time if she could drink "normal" beer that was wheat-free. He explains the logic better in the video, but he sold the label to the brewery it was being contract-brewed at anyways. Happy story for everyone who loved Celia, and for John who doesn't have to jump through hoops for a beer he isn't crazy about.

If you want further evidence, I've talked to his wife at the brewery while she was drinking some Heady Topper. No wheat confirmed in my book.