Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

FC - all you need to do is follow this write up:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/entries/yeast-harvesting-novel-approach.html

I use it all the time and have a sweet bank of clean yeast in the fridge. Go to yeastcalc.com and run the numbers to build up something big enough that you can afford to pour off .5L for a future starter. You'll probably have to do some kentucky windage since you don't know how many cells your starter has going.

Much appreciated.. That was the direction I was headed!

I have two cases of heady in the fridge so I should get on culturing some Conan. Haven't been able to come close with my two attempts yet. Going to try one more then give up till someone figures it out lol

I haven't seen OthelloMcBane chime in yet, so I'll post this link to his write-up on Conan yeast and what he's brewed with it http://www.bear-flavored.com/2012/09/culturing-conan-aka-alchemists-heady.html

Which leads me to ask, now that I have Conan coming in the mail (thanks Vegan), what has anyone brewed with it other than Heady clones? What do you think it would do well in?

I respect what was written on bearflavored and went with his temp recommendations for a while, but in my experience, I like the results at 66 and 68 better.

What makes 66-68 better for you?
I've got a couple vials headed my way, and want the best juicy flavor from it.

Not sure. But in combo with my latest recipe, I really liked the entire package. Never had good results with low temps, regardless of what I did to the recipe. I did a regular IPA at 62 and got a similar aroma.

What aroma? I've followed this thread, and the old one, since the beginning. I must have missed it.
When I brew this within the next couple weeks, it will be your latest recipe I think.
You got my PM re:Conan right?

Unless you all got a PM from me, your yeast all went out today. It's very thick this time, well over 100 billion in each vial.

62 has been very fruity, like a lighter fruit, pear perhaps. The 66-68 version came out what I consider to be a very similar profile to real Heady. I have my ingredients set to brew tomorrow now that I've gotten all the yeast sent out. I'll post updates before you get to brewing yours.

Thank you, vegan. Not just for the Conan, but for all the work you have laid down toward this project.
I appreciate it.

FATC1TY said:

Speaking of Conan... I've got this starter that I ramped up from the vial I had. It's roughly 1600ml starter. The yeast has flocc'd out pretty damn good for 1 day in the fridge. This stuff has some good qualities to it for sure.

I've got the Double Citra DIPA going on this weekend. Doing it so I can get a cake going, to pitch my HT clone into within the next week or two.

I'm curious if I need to step up the starter. I've got a 2L flask.. Well, I've got two of them actually.

I'm thinking this.. I want to keep a vial of clean conan for future use, should I need it, since I have next to no easy way to get Heady Topper. I'm thinking of decanting, starting the plate with a bit of the "beer" on top of it, and getting some of the slurry off the bottom, and getting a vial full while it's pretty clean.

With what I have left in the flask, I'm figuring, I'll make another 1500ml starter on top of it, and get it back on the plate, then crash it like I did it once. Would that raise my numbers, or would I be better taking the vial like planned, then pouring some of the yeast slurry I have, into a jar, or another flask for that matter, and tossing it in the fridge. Keeping say... half or 1/3 of what I have made already, and then stepping that small portion up, so I have a slurry in the flask #1, and then the other half or so, stepping up again on the plate in flask 2, along with the safe keep vial in the fridge..?

Trying to figure the best way to get a bunch of healthy guys for the brew, It's a 1.085 OG, so I know I need a fair bit of yeast for it. I know it'll make more when I ferment it, but I want to have enough for it anyways, and I want to still keep some clean yeast for safe keeping.

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Here's another great thread and the process I use for plating yeast:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Growing_Yeast_from_a_Plate

The best thing about plating is you can grow your yeast from a single cell and insure that you have pure yeast. Then from that group you can separate as many slants as you want with essentially the same generation of yeast. Which may be important in this situation since Kimmich uses Conan for 3 months/15 generations (probably never know exactly) and adjusts fermentation temp for each generation. It would be a lot easier being able to hone in the recipe using same generation rather than trying to adjust for each succeeding generation.

As with Nordeast, this is my first full scale clone attempt.

I've done some reading up on my new refractometer and figuring out OG based off hydrometer and refractometer readings. It's not 100% foolproof , but here are the numbers:

All 3 hydrometer readings I've taken, though they are from different cans, they are same batch, were 1.014. Can 1- 4 days old. Can 2- 2 weeks old. Can 3- 1 month old. I had 9.1, 9.1, and 9.1 on the refractometer. All probably the same, just hard to eyeball it really close.

With the MoreBeer calculator, I entered FG refractometer reading, then adjusted the OG refractometer reading until it matched the value for 1.014 FG on the hydrometer. That result was valid from 18.3 brix to 18 brix OG, or 1.075-1.074. Estimated ABV was 7.95-7.96%.

I'm getting awesome aromas from the fermenter at 64 degrees. I had a friend smell it and they were like "that smells like heady topper! ".

csamson said:

Here's another great thread and the process I use for plating yeast:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Growing_Yeast_from_a_Plate

The best thing about plating is you can grow your yeast from a single cell and insure that you have pure yeast. Then from that group you can separate as many slants as you want with essentially the same generation of yeast. Which may be important in this situation since Kimmich uses Conan for 3 months/15 generations (probably never know exactly) and adjusts fermentation temp for each generation. It would be a lot easier being able to hone in the recipe using same generation rather than trying to adjust for each succeeding generation.

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I'm getting some Conan as well and will bank it and take some shots of it under the scope when I have a spare moment.

kingwood-kid said:

I haven't seen OthelloMcBane chime in yet, so I'll post this link to his write-up on Conan yeast and what he's brewed with it http://www.bear-flavored.com/2012/09/culturing-conan-aka-alchemists-heady.html

Which leads me to ask, now that I have Conan coming in the mail (thanks Vegan), what has anyone brewed with it other than Heady clones? What do you think it would do well in?

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Thanks for the mention. I haven't actually brewed a Heady clone yet, so I haven't chimed into this thread, though I've been following it closely, of course. Appreciate the great info everyone is turning up.

My brewing schedule is pretty packed for the next few months, so it'll probably be a while until I actually attempt a Heady clone. Honestly, I'm more interested in just playing around with Conan in different combinations of IPA, and different styles, at the moment. I think it may act as a sort of hop character enhancer, at least based on the IPAs I brewed last year.

Any day now I'm going to start drinking a black IPA that I brewed with Conan and some less popular hop varieties (Brewer's Gold, Bramling Cross, Pacific Jade). Curious to see how Conan affects hop characters other than the typical combo used in stuff like Heady.

I think it should prove to be an extremely versatile yeast; I can see it being awesome for stuff like imperial stouts, given the attenuation and body it produces.

othellomcbane said:

Thanks for the mention. I haven't actually brewed a Heady clone yet, so I haven't chimed into this thread, though I've been following it closely, of course. Appreciate the great info everyone is turning up.

My brewing schedule is pretty packed for the next few months, so it'll probably be a while until I actually attempt a Heady clone. Honestly, I'm more interested in just playing around with Conan in different combinations of IPA, and different styles, at the moment. I think it may act as a sort of hop character enhancer, at least based on the IPAs I brewed last year.

Any day now I'm going to start drinking a black IPA that I brewed with Conan and some less popular hop varieties (Brewer's Gold, Bramling Cross, Pacific Jade). Curious to see how Conan affects hop characters other than the typical combo used in stuff like Heady.

I think it should prove to be an extremely versatile yeast; I can see it being awesome for stuff like imperial stouts, given the attenuation and body it produces.

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We are on a very similar page. Also, I had a single hop Pacific Jade IPA last weekend and it was delicious! Made we want to look into that hop.

Drinking it now and refreshing my memory... A felllow HBT'er sent me some.

Definitely tastes Columbus and Simcoe heavy, with a hint of Amarillo. Not gonna make a definitive guess on the other hops, but the possibilities have been discussed in earlier threads. Though, I do believe a miniscule amount of Summit may make it's in the mix. Not sold on Chinook or Cascade so much... though they may make their way in there in very small amounts. I'll believe Centennial, Apollo, and Nugget slightly more than the former.

vegan, you're right... This doesn't taste as dry as Pliny the Elder, so I'm thinking the 1.014 may be more accurate. I stand corrected... at least without factual evidence until I test the FG myself!! That may have changed since I last tasted it??? However, I do not think there is any crystal malt in here... and the bitterness is definitely not lacking. I still stand by my assumption of a beta-rest in the mid-140s followed by a higher mash temp in the mid 150s.

While fairly smooth, It's probably hopped in a very simliar schedule as Pliny, with a much more significant focus on the warm hopstand. Pliny has a more aggressive dank aroma (dryhop) whereas heady has a more aggressive dank flavor (hopstand).

Definitely maltier than Pliny though... that is not to say it's sweet or detracting. Just more malt character from that English malt base (for anyone who's never had HT but wanted a comparison). Pearl is probably the perfect malt if you want more malt character in an IPA that's not overbearing... because it's not as heavy and rich as Maris Otter, but it's not as boring and plain as American 2-row. You can kind of smell British 2-row traits as well... sometimes it can come off as dusty or bready. Pearl has half of that typical British malt smell. I'm also sensing a sour tang after the dank marijuana, so they may incorporate 2% acid malt in the grist. I don't know if that has been discussed before.

I would like to think there is a minimal amount of oats in here of some kind. The mouthfeel is creamier than most IIPAs and the head is fairly rich and thick. Wheat would also make sense. Before I took the picture, the head was rockin' to the brim.

I happened to get veryyyy clear cans this time. While not crystal clear, it's fairly clear. No hop resins or yeast sediment despite pouring more aggressively than normal. It looks clearer in person than in the picture.

Anyway, I hope this helped. This tastes like straight up dank marijuana. The dank to fruity hop ratio has to be at least 3:1. Slightly (but not severely) underpitch if cloning. This doesn't seem to require as many cells as Mrmalty claims. But close to it!

Interesting to see more clear cans. This is something I started noticing in January. They were clear, no hops, barely any yeast. I am not sure on this, but I think the recipe changed sometime between last October and January. I can also attest to the bitterness definitely 'being there', it's noticeable. I believe 7-9 million cells per mL is a nice place to do yeast.

Hop wise I am feeling good with simcoe, Columbus, Amarillo and maybe some centennial. I didnt like what the more cascade centennial forward versions came out like.

I am generally a clarity freak unless dry hopping is factored into the mix, but I almost always find that with excess yeast in suspension, it contributes significantly to mouthfeel as well as leading to a harsh, biting bitterness. Getting some of it out really helps the balance of the beers, IMO.

They are getting clearer beer since their expansion. I posted about it earlier.

They said they have more capacity now, and it allows them to slow their process and allow the beer to crash and become bright a little longer than previous. No change in the recipe I'd expect, just clearly leaving it in the tanks for a couple of days longer they said.. ( see what I did there!! )

I would highly doubt they would mess with the recipe. They've got a world class beer on their hands, and one that is rated #1 in the world on a couple of beer sites. No reason to mess with something so wildly loved.

I'm getting a couple Heady's on trade, so I'll be getting off the bench and into this game soon. I think the agreed on 4 hops(columbus, simcoe, centennial, amarillo). Might think about nugget as well. Been drinking a fair amount of Nugget Nectar lately and like the profile it gives.

FATC1TY said:

They are getting clearer beer since their expansion. I posted about it earlier.

They said they have more capacity now, and it allows them to slow their process and allow the beer to crash and become bright a little longer than previous. No change in the recipe I'd expect, just clearly leaving it in the tanks for a couple of days longer they said.. ( see what I did there!! )

I would highly doubt they would mess with the recipe. They've got a world class beer on their hands, and one that is rated #1 in the world on a couple of beer sites. No reason to mess with something so wildly loved.

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Agreed....."we have the #1 rated beer! Lets fu(k with it"....yea, don't think so.

FATC1TY said:

They are getting clearer beer since their expansion. I posted about it earlier.

They said they have more capacity now, and it allows them to slow their process and allow the beer to crash and become bright a little longer than previous. No change in the recipe I'd expect, just clearly leaving it in the tanks for a couple of days longer they said.. ( see what I did there!! )

I would highly doubt they would mess with the recipe. They've got a world class beer on their hands, and one that is rated #1 in the world on a couple of beer sites. No reason to mess with something so wildly loved.

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But it's Kimmich's project. I'm sure he doesn't care about the beer ratings. I get the picture that he's a perfectionist, and he's going to keep tweaking until he's happy.

PseudoChef said:

But it's Kimmich's project. I'm sure he doesn't care about the beer ratings. I get the picture that he's a perfectionist, and he's going to keep tweaking until he's happy.

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I have to say, I'm on your side. Ever since the double batches heady tastes different. The two four packs I got last week have noticably less tropical fruit on the palate than I was used to. I thought I was crazy, maybe I am, or maybe they're just still getting used to a bigger batch size.

Anyways. I had a crazy idea tonight and I thought I would run it by the rest of the hop cult and see if it was crazy good or crazy bad.

So I'm culturing this conan yeast, it's going well, I really wanna make a beer with it.....

I also got the pliney the elder recipe that was posted here supposedly from vinnie himself and really want to brew that ....

If you see where I'm going here ..... HEADY THE ELDER?

Great Idea? Terrible Idea? The Greatest Idea? I disgrace to beer?

I honestly have no idea, I've never had a pliny. Thought this would be a good place to speculate while we wait for the various heady clone attempts to ferment.

nsap said:

I have to say, I'm on your side. Ever since the double batches heady tastes different. The two four packs I got last week have noticably less tropical fruit on the palate than I was used to. I thought I was crazy, maybe I am, or maybe they're just still getting used to a bigger batch size.

Anyways. I had a crazy idea tonight and I thought I would run it by the rest of the hop cult and see if it was crazy good or crazy bad.

So I'm culturing this conan yeast, it's going well, I really wanna make a beer with it.....

I also got the pliney the elder recipe that was posted here supposedly from vinnie himself and really want to brew that ....

If you see where I'm going here ..... HEADY THE ELDER?

Great Idea? Terrible Idea? The Greatest Idea? I disgrace to beer?

I honestly have no idea, I've never had a pliny. Thought this would be a good place to speculate while we wait for the various heady clone attempts to ferment.

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I don't see why not. I would think the recipe would need to be altered though. Conan and trying to dry out the beer with the dextrose in Pliny might not be... that awesome... if you get where I'm going with that.

For instance, this weekend, I'm tossing some Conan in Kern Rivers Citra DIPA. Should work real well I think. Not suppose to be super dry and the juicy Citra/Amarillo hop schedule will work nicely with the peachy Conan.

Got my starter stepped up twice already.. and put me another vial of fresh clean Conan in the fridge for down the road.

If you believe this was once a 1.010 beer than it has changed. If you think it's been 1.014 all along, then maybe they didn't change. I think it's changed, and I think it happened when they up'd capacity. It tastes different now.

PseudoChef said:

But it's Kimmich's project. I'm sure he doesn't care about the beer ratings. I get the picture that he's a perfectionist, and he's going to keep tweaking until he's happy.

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I think he does care about what people rate and think of his product. It's the reason people from all over seek it out, simply because of blind faith in ratings.

While he might be a perfectionist, he's in this as a business. If it's not broke, why change it, and risk people being turned off by something that he wants to tweak around for the sake of playing with it. He's there to make money and keep making more beer, period.

It's his project, to make money. We all brew because it's a hobby. They brew because it's a hobby that pays the bills. Lets not all forget that. If it was just a labor of love, he'd share their recipe, wouldn't you think?

I can see variance from batch to batch, after all, they aren't a huge tightly controlled brewery.. But I don't buy them tinkering each batch anymore, unless forced to for reasons out of their control.

whitehause said:

I'm getting a couple Heady's on trade, so I'll be getting off the bench and into this game soon. I think the agreed on 4 hops(columbus, simcoe, centennial, amarillo). Might think about nugget as well. Been drinking a fair amount of Nugget Nectar lately and like the profile it gives.

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My 6 hops also include Chinook and Nugget, but they aren't main hops and are only in small amounts in the 5 minute and whirlpool. I know for sure neither are in the dry hop.

Yes, there seems to be variation in batches week to week. I drink a fresh can of heady about once every two weeks and it is always slightly different.