El Dorado Motueka Saison

Looking for some critique on this recipe for a Saison. I'm trying to use some newer hops and get a "fruity" saison out of this. I haven't used El Dorado or Matueka yet so I may be way off with this and thinking these will go together. I would like to get the FG down as well but not sure about the best way to go for that. The yeast may bring it down, I calculated at 80% and White Labs says it can go up to 85%. If it gets 85% then it'll go down to 1.006 which I'm ok with.


Recipe Specs
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Batch Size (G): 5.25
Total Grain (lb): 11.000
Total Hops (oz): 3.75
Original Gravity (OG): 1.062 (°P): 15.2
Final Gravity (FG): 1.009 (°P): 2.3
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 7.00 %
Colour (SRM): 5
Bitterness (IBU): 32.6 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 75
Boil Time (Minutes): 90

Grain Bill
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4.000 lb Pale Ale Malt (36.36%)
4.000 lb Pilsner (36.36%)
1.250 lb Munich II (11.36%)
0.750 lb Wheat Malt (6.82%)
1.000 lb Cane Sugar (9.09%)

Hop Bill
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0.75 oz Hallertau Mittlefrueh Pellet (4.6% Alpha) @ 80 Minutes (Boil) (0.1 oz/Gal)
1.00 oz El Dorado Pellet (15.5% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.2 oz/Gal)
0.50 oz Motueka Pellet (7.7% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (0.1 oz/Gal)
1.00 oz El Dorado Pellet (15.5% Alpha) @ Flameout (0.2 oz/Gal)
0.50 oz Motueka Pellet (7.7% Alpha) @ Flameout (0.1 oz/Gal)

Misc Bill
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Single step Infusion at 150°F for 80 Minutes.
Fermented at 68°F with WLP566 - Belgian Saison II

I'm working on a Cherry Saison recipe, mostly just trolling for advice and pointers for now. I'll be watching. Think I'm going to try the dry Bell's Saison yeast, at 68*-70*F. Are those hops fruity?

I've brewed with both. The El Dorado is an interesting hop, it's terrible for bittering (which you aren't doing) and tastes sort of candy fruit punch like. It's really hard to describe, but I enjoy the flavor it imparts. I did get some tropical notes from Motueka when I paired it with Citra, but haven't used it enough in a recipe to say definitively.

Your hop choices seem like they could work though.

Thanks for the replies. Anybody else have any thoughts?

I'm pretty sure I'm going to brew this soon, next weekend hopefully, otherwise it'll be mid March before I get to it. Hoping to order the ingredients since LHBS doesn't carry either Motueka or ElDorado hops. I'll be using washed WL566 that'll need a two stage starter so I plan to get that started this weekend.

All ingredients have been ordered. Had to order brewmasters warehouse, which I've had good luck with. Out of 4 online stored they were the only ones to have everything for this. And, I checked with lhbs and they can't get El Dorado hops so...

If this ends up being good and one I want to keep around I'll have to bulk order the El Dorado.

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Boiling now. The El Dorado hops definitely smell different in the packaging. Can't wait to see how they smell once I drop them in.


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To update on brew day. Due to my crappy efficiency my ABV and IBU's will be a little off. I only got 64% efficiency, I thought going with a double grind on the grains, 80 min mash, and, doing a batch sprage of a gallon in my BIAB setup would yield better results. In the end my efficiency came out tot about the same as I have been seeing, so I'm still fighting figuring out how to get better with BIAB.

Anyways, depending on yeast performance I'm looking between 6% and 6.25% ABV and about 34.4IBU's

Been two weeks since brew day. Gravity is down to 1.001, lower than expected but good for a Saison.

Tasted the hydro and has a crisp biscuity quality that's not usual in a Saison, different in a good way. Yeast spiciness overwhelmed all other smells and tastes so still too early to see what the El Dorado and Motrueka are going to contribute.

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bolus14 said:

To update on brew day. Due to my crappy efficiency my ABV and IBU's will be a little off. I only got 64% efficiency, I thought going with a double grind on the grains, 80 min mash, and, doing a batch sprage of a gallon in my BIAB setup would yield better results. In the end my efficiency came out tot about the same as I have been seeing, so I'm still fighting figuring out how to get better with BIAB.

Anyways, depending on yeast performance I'm looking between 6% and 6.25% ABV and about 34.4IBU's

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I consistently get 65 - 70% with my biab set up and I'm happy with that far more importatnt to me to be consistent in my process than to hit high efficiency numbers. I am contemplating brewing my first saison and was thinking of using Magnum to bitter and El Dorado for flavor and aroma so I'm interested in your results.

BUCKNUTS said:

I consistently get 65 - 70% with my biab set up and I'm happy with that far more importatnt to me to be consistent in my process than to hit high efficiency numbers. I am contemplating brewing my first saison and was thinking of using Magnum to bitter and El Dorado for flavor and aroma so I'm interested in your results.

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I prefer to bitter most of my beers with Magnum...it's a great hop. However, I bitter all my saisons with Wakatu...just a consideration.

Sounds like Wakatu would work well of this turns out. I'm really hoping to get some candyish like flavor and some lemon lime flavor. Nothing too overpowering just in the background.

Do you get any lemon lime notes when using Wakatu for bittering?

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johnsnownw said:

I prefer to bitter most of my beers with Magnum...it's a great hop. However, I bitter all my saisons with Wakatu...just a consideration.

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Do you get any of the lime aroma/flavor from thrm? That should be nice with a saison yeast. I have 6lbs of hops in the freezer among them 8oz El Dorado and 4oz of Magnum.


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johnsnownw said:

I prefer to bitter most of my beers with Magnum...it's a great hop. However, I bitter all my saisons with Wakatu...just a consideration.

Click to expand...

Do you get any of the lime aroma/flavor from them? That should be nice with a saison yeast. I have 6lbs of hops in the freezer among them 8oz El Dorado and 4oz of Magnum.


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bolus14 said:

Sounds like Wakatu would work well of this turns out. I'm really hoping to get some candyish like flavor and some lemon lime flavor. Nothing too overpowering just in the background.

Do you get any lemon lime notes when using Wakatu for bittering?

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Click to expand...

BUCKNUTS said:

Do you get any of the lime aroma/flavor from them? That should be nice with a saison yeast. I have 6lbs of hops in the freezer among them 8oz El Dorado and 4oz of Magnum.


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Click to expand...

To you both, yes I get a slight lime when using it as the main bittering hop, but it is subtle.

As for El Dorado, as long as you use it late late in the boil you'll get the candy-like nature of the hop. It really gives a muddled bittering profile...so I will always advocate using it as late as possible. For instance, I'm brewing a Red IPA on Sat. that will incorporate El Dorado, and it doesn't make an appearance until 5 min.

johnsnownw said:

To you both, yes I get a slight lime when using it as the main bittering hop, but it is subtle.

As for El Dorado, as long as you use it late late in the boil you'll get the candy-like nature of the hop. It really gives a muddled bittering profile...so I will always advocate using it as late as possible. For instance, I'm brewing a Red IPA on Sat. that will incorporate El Dorado, and it doesn't make an appearance until 5 min.

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I like El Dorado a lot in ipas. I have never contemplated bittering with it because much like Citra that isnt the best use for it.

BUCKNUTS said:

I like El Dorado a lot in ipas. I have never contemplated bittering with it because much like Citra that isnt the best use for it.

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The only reason I did was as an experiment. That is, I basically did a SMASH.

Sampled a little more this weekend and the biscuit taste and the spiciness has mellowed a lot. Really don't pick up the biscuit much, kind of wish it was there more, just because it's not typical in the style and it added a nice touch to the taste. Taste this time was more grassy and belgian funkiness with a hint of lemon that seems typical with this yeast. If I hadn't used it before and tasted the lemon in those I don't think I would pick it up in this. I'm hoping another week will bring out some more lemon/lime and the candy from the El Dorado really not getting anything candy like at this point.

If the "candy" qualities don't make an appearance I'm debating dry hopping with .5oz or 1oz of El Dorado for a week. I'm also thinking that the Saison strain may be too much for this hop to make an appearance in the taste.

The smell has the typical Saison funk, some earthy/grassiness, then some malt and citrus notes. I'm really hopign the citrus comes out more here. Only time will tell I guess

In the end im sure she'll still be good beer.

Bottled this weekend. Not much of a change from last week's tasting. I still think the yeast flavors need time to mellow for the hop characteristics to come through. I think that's the only problem with trying to get hop flavors in a Saison the esters and funk take time to mellow out.The same can be said for many Belgian strains, the yeast just throw some much during fermentation that it seems to linger longer than other strains.

I'm thinking of trying the same type of hop combo in an American Wheat or Pale Ale, those styles would allow for more hop presence to be noticeable. Guess all I can do now is wait a week or two then start sampling to see what this one becomes.

bolus14 said:

Bottled this weekend. Not much of a change from last week's tasting. I still think the yeast flavors need time to mellow for the hop characteristics to come through. I think that's the only problem with trying to get hop flavors in a Saison the esters and funk take time to mellow out.The same can be said for many Belgian strains, the yeast just throw some much during fermentation that it seems to linger longer than other strains.



I'm thinking of trying the same type of hop combo in an American Wheat or Pale Ale, those styles would allow for more hop presence to be noticeable. Guess all I can do now is wait a week or two then start sampling to see what this one becomes.

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Hope it turns out well I decided to go with Chinook and Galaxy in my saison it's chugging along nicely. I do not have a feementation chamber so its at ambient temp of 72 degrees


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Tried one last night after only 4 days in the bottle. Strong saison funk in the smell. A little thick for being at 1.003. Might be too sweet for some people. Actually reminded me of Lagunitas Lil Sumpin Sumpin. Got some lemon lime citrus as it warmed up, but as it stands I wouldn't list them on any tasting notes.

I think it just needs some conditioning time, the few saisons I've brewed seem to be good after 2-3 weeks in the bottle and get better as they age. The funkiness fades and allows the other flavors to come through.

With that said I'll probably try another in a week or so and hopefully there will be some differences. Its not bad where its at just not where I want it.

bolus14 said:

Tried one last night after only 4 days in the bottle. Strong saison funk in the smell. A little thick for being at 1.003. Might be too sweet for some people. Actually reminded me of Lagunitas Lil Sumpin Sumpin. Got some lemon lime citrus as it warmed up, but as it stands I wouldn't list them on any tasting notes.

I think it just needs some conditioning time, the few saisons I've brewed seem to be good after 2-3 weeks in the bottle and get better as they age. The funkiness fades and allows the other flavors to come through.

With that said I'll probably try another in a week or so and hopefully there will be some differences. Its not bad where its at just not where I want it.

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My first attempt has been in fermenter for a week today og was 1.072 today it is at 1.002 that French Saison yeast is a beast.


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I'l post a pic or two in the next day or two but wanted to update since I've started putting these into my rotation. Came out pretty good. The Saison spiciness is still very prevalent along with some good citrus zest. I don't think the El Dorado contributes a lot except some sweetness because this is sweeter than most Saisons that I've had.

I have a couple friends that love IPA's and they like this a lot, already asking when I'm brewing it again. I also have some friends that like most Belgians and dark beers but stay away from IPA's that also like it, they say it's pretty good for warmer days but they wouldn't want it in Fall or Winter.

My personal take is I like it, still not sure if I'll make it again. For me either the spiciness or bitterness is stronger than my preference. There's a prickly on the tongue, not from the carbonation, that makes it interesting. The malt and hops are balanced, but for a Saison it could be peceived as too sweet and not dry enough, even though it got down to 1.003. It might be good with some Saaz in place of the El Dorado.

For my first expereicne with El Dorado I don't think it works. I think it would be better in a Pale, American Wheat, Witbier, or Winter Warmer. Unless used on their own I don't know that the flavor will come through much. For Winter Warmers I think they would contribute some sweetness that can sometimes be missing.

bolus14 said:

I'l post a pic or two in the next day or two but wanted to update since I've started putting these into my rotation. Came out pretty good. The Saison spiciness is still very prevalent along with some good citrus zest. I don't think the El Dorado contributes a lot except some sweetness because this is sweeter than most Saisons that I've had.

I have a couple friends that love IPA's and they like this a lot, already asking when I'm brewing it again. I also have some friends that like most Belgians and dark beers but stay away from IPA's that also like it, they say it's pretty good for warmer days but they wouldn't want it in Fall or Winter.

My personal take is I like it, still not sure if I'll make it again. For me either the spiciness or bitterness is stronger than my preference. There's a prickly on the tongue, not from the carbonation, that makes it interesting. The malt and hops are balanced, but for a Saison it could be peceived as too sweet and not dry enough, even though it got down to 1.003. It might be good with some Saaz in place of the El Dorado.

For my first expereicne with El Dorado I don't think it works. I think it would be better in a Pale, American Wheat, Witbier, or Winter Warmer. Unless used on their own I don't know that the flavor will come through much. For Winter Warmers I think they would contribute some sweetness that can sometimes be missing.

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I can tell you from experience that El Dorado imparts a pretty distinct flavor, but this is because I've done a nearly single hopped APA with it. Above is a picture of my recent Red IPA with Galaxy, Mosaic and El Dorado. All three of those hops are present in the finished product, but I'm not sure it would be easy to pick out each one's contribution without knowing the profile each brings to the beer.

I think the issue you have is that much of the hop aroma is being muddled with the Saison yeast profile. However, I bet the El Dorado is providing more flavor/aroma than you realize, though as you point out...it may not be working that well in this style.

I agree. Saison yeasts have a strong aroma and taste so in this style it's tough to distinguish hop flavors. If you don't mind sharing your recipe for the APA I would like to give it a shot, I'd really like to try something that showcases El Dorado.

bolus14 said:

I agree. Saison yeasts have a strong aroma and taste so in this style it's tough to distinguish hop flavors. If you don't mind sharing your recipe for the APA I would like to give it a shot, I'd really like to try something that showcases El Dorado.

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Sure. However, I did NOT like using it as bittering, so I'm going to include a change there...it really sucks as a bittering hop. I also substituted Mosaic for one of the 2 oz at flame out...but that was just to add some complexity as I was unsure of the El Dorado. I'll leave that out too, but you can certainly do it...El Dorado will still be the most pronounced.

10 lbs Golden Promise
1 lbs Munich

.50 oz Magnum @60
1 oz El Dorado @10
2 oz El Dorado @ 0
2 oz El Dorado Dry Hop for 7 days.

California Ale Yeast

Mash @ 154

How important do you feel the Golden Promise is? I'm not sure if LHBS carries it or not. I'll have to order the El Dorado online becasue I know LHBS can't get them, so I may just add the grain to it.

bolus14 said:

How important do you feel the Golden Promise is? I'm not sure if LHBS carries it or not. I'll have to order the El Dorado online becasue I know LHBS can't get them, so I may just add the grain to it.

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Golden Promise is my preferred base malt. It has a slightly sweeter finish than others, and will help bring out the candy-like nature of the El Dorado...as will the Munich.

I'd be surprised if your LHBS doesn't carry it, it's at least as popular as Maris Otter.

So I checked with LHBS and they don't keep golden promise in as a regular base malt they occasionally put an order in bot don't keep stock of it.

As for this saison, the funk has mellowed as expected but still there and the hops are coming through now. There a smooth lime zest like character and a touch of sweetness that I'm thinking comes from the El Dorado.

Definitely thinking of making this again, might he soon to have for late summer.

The attached pic isn't the best, not the glass I normally use but at my in laws so I use what they have. I have been getting about half an inch of head and good lacing but given that their glasses are all washed with rinse agent I didn't get any of that.

At this point I've gotten through about half of the 5 gal batch of this, I've been drinking them slowly while I try to drink some other stuff first.

At 32IBU's it's towards the high end for the style, but doesn't come across bitter in my opinion. Upfront is the farmhouse aroma/tatse typical of the style followed by some slight pepper/spice, then there's a smooth citurs (lemon/lime) zest that lingers more than anything else. It comes across sweeter than other Saisons, I think due to the El Dorado, I still need to make a Pale Ale with just those to understand what they contribute.

One guy that tasted it said it was like a citrus IPA. I don't entirely agree that it's close to an IPA, like I said it has some bitterness, but to me it's there for balancing the sweetness, then more than others is the citurs zest which to some people could be sensed as bitter, I guess.