Yeast, yeast starters and stir plates for the newbie

[OpenSights]

I’ve come to the point in brewing where I find myself comfortable the basics, cleaning, sanitizing, use of hops and grains, the boil, fermentation....

While I no doubt need to continue to practice all of that, I feel I need to start expanding my knowledge and practices. The next two subjects I want to learn in depth are water and yeast. I’m using RO water and I know it can be improved upon, but for now I want to learn about yeast.

I’ve read what I could find here and much the subject in the many books I have. To be honest, I love to read, but to really learn I have to be hands on.

In my venture learning about yeast I’d like to get ideas, thoughts and opinions about equipment, practices and products. I understand yeast choice and practice of use depends on recipe and your personal favored outcome.

I’ve only pitched dry yeast. US-05, S-04, champagne, and a few other wine yeast. That’s where I’m at. Knock on wood, 95% of what I’ve made has been at least tolerable, lol.

I have a yeast starter glass, I might be able to aerate three times a day, would a stir plate work better, or is that a waste of Money? Is a yeast starter really worth it over just pitching dry yeast?

Appreciate any input!

 

[NeoBrew]

You are likely going to get more opinions that you care for! Particularly the last question about dry vs liquid yeast. To that I would say whatever works for you is what's best for you.

I've only used dry yeast twice in 5 years. I find the extra work to grow up and pitch liquid yeast gives me the good results I want. Shaking yeast starters is certainly acceptable. I started that way. Watch out when you shake them, they can become lightly carbonated when they are active. The shaking can lead to an overflow.

I built my own stir plate from a computer fan. Using some parts I had around the house plus some electronics for eBay I built a functional stir plate for less than $30. The stir bar was probably the single most expensive part.

There are a lot more options with liquid yeast in terms of variety, but it also comes with the hazard that it is not as stable as dry yeast in storage and shipping. I'm uneasy with mail ordering liquid yeast. If you don't have a local source for liquid yeast, then you will have to figure out where to mail order it and how to keep it viable during that process.

 

[OpenSights]

You are likely going to get more opinions that you care for! Particularly the last question about dry vs liquid yeast. To that I would say whatever works for you is what's best for you.

I've only used dry yeast twice in 5 years. I find the extra work to grow up and pitch liquid yeast gives me the good results I want. Shaking yeast starters is certainly acceptable. I started that way. Watch out when you shake them, they can become lightly carbonated when they are active. The shaking can lead to an overflow.

I built my own stir plate from a computer fan. Using some parts I had around the house plus some electronics for eBay I built a functional stir plate for less than $30. The stir bar was probably the single most expensive part.

There are a lot more options with liquid yeast in terms of variety, but it also comes with the hazard that it is not as stable as dry yeast in storage and shipping. I'm uneasy with mail ordering liquid yeast. If you don't have a local source for liquid yeast, then you will have to figure out where to mail order it and how to keep it viable during that process.

Exactly what I’m looking for! Experience of not just the author of a book! I’m fortunate enough to have a LHBS. Any and just about everything can be ordered, if not available.

I found this plate on Amazon.... but I’ve gone cheap there before and got crap... https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-stirrer-magnetic-Stirring-Capacity/dp/B072K24X5P/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=OMIJVC4R3KTV&keywords=stir+plate&qid=1558984066&s=gateway&sprefix=Stir+,aps,167&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1

 

[mongoose33]

Here are some tidbits about yeast and yeast starters, in no particular order:

1. I think you should get a stir plate and flask (don't forget the little stir bar!), some DME, and a long enough thermometer that you can leave it in the flask while chilling so you can know when to stop. Nothing holy about the flask (a large vessel similar to an Erhlenmeyer flask is fine, so long as it can be covered), it's just easier in some respects.

2. Dry yeast works. I've come around to the idea that one doesn't need to oxygenate the wort prior to pitching dry yeast. If I have an issue w/ dry yeast, and it's only a medium-small issue, it's the time lag until things get going.

3. Which is why I like liquid yeast starters. The way I do them, I'll have activity within 4-6 hours of pitching, and I like that. My son, a microbiologist, says virtually all homebrew batches are 'infected' by bacteria hitching rides on dust and stuff that falls into the cooled wort. The best defense against that is to have the yeast outcompete those nasties, and that means getting it going as soon as you can.

4. Now, having said that, I attended the BYO brewing boot camp in Asheville in March. Chris White, of White Labs fame, Dr. White, taught a Yeast workshop which I attended. He said he wouldn't do a starter w/ liquid yeast, just pitch it in.

5. So my son starts doing that (he's a homebrewer too). Made a very nice Kolsch just pitching a tube of WLP029 into the wort. Took 36 hours to get going, but the beer, at this point, was very good. I'd have another. Well, I did.

6. So we brew the same thing this weekend, more or less. I get the wort in my Spike conical, oxygenate it with an O2 tank and wand, and pitch the warmed-up yeast into 70-degree wort. I let it sit at that temp for about 8 hours gradually dropping it to 60 degrees.

7. It took that yeast 24 hours to get going. Better than my son's experience, but still--24 hours? I'm used to 4 hours!

8. Some yeast strains don't come in dry form, so you're left with liquid yeast as the option. Thus one should be concerned about stir plates and starters, or at least aware of them w/r/t this issue....which maybe is why you're asking the question.

9. Dry yeast: There's disagreement as to whether you should rehydrate it or not. The general consensus, based on what the yeast companies themselves are saying is, no need. It's pretty darned simple, just sprinkle it on top of the wort.

10. I do starters differently than most people (there are only 3 or 4 of us here who do this). I try to time them so I'm pitching them into the fermenter about 17-18 hours after I began the starter--and I pitch the whole starter into the wort, no crashing and decanting. The yeast at 18 hours in the starter are active, and I pitch them into wort the same temp as the starter. And they keep going. That wort, of course, is oxygenated.

11. I was kicking myself yesterday and pitching the yeast w/ no starter. I do Low Oxygen brewing and invest a fair amount of time in trying to avoid oxygen on the hot (mash) side. It's one reason why I want the starter to get going fast.

But.....after all that effort to protect the malt flavors in the wort, what do I do? I oxygenate the wort, and then it takes 24 hours to get going, during which time the oxygen is working on the malt flavors. Never again.

12. So--I'm a liquid yeast starter guy. I'm convinced dry yeast can work well too, limited though the strains are.

EDITED TO ADD: I forgot to note that I always oxygenate the starter wort. One of the strategies of LODO brewing is to preboil the strike water to drive off oxygen prior to adding the crushed grain. It occurred to me that's exactly what we do when we boil DME to create starter wort--we drive off the oxygen, then pitch the yeast into oxygen-free medium. Not the best. So I oxygenate that wort for 30 seconds w/ an O2 wand. Then on the stir plate. It's one of the reasons my starters take off so fast in the fermenter, I believe.

 

[OpenSights]

Here are some tidbits about yeast and yeast starters, in no particular order:

1. I think you should get a stir plate and flask (don't forget the little stir bar!), some DME, and a long enough thermometer that you can leave it in the flask while chilling so you can know when to stop. Nothing holy about the flask (a large vessel similar to an Erhlenmeyer flask is fine, so long as it can be covered), it's just easier in some respects.

2. Dry yeast works. I've come around to the idea that one doesn't need to oxygenate the wort prior to pitching dry yeast. If I have an issue w/ dry yeast, and it's only a medium-small issue, it's the time lag until things get going.

3. Which is why I like liquid yeast starters. The way I do them, I'll have activity within 4-6 hours of pitching, and I like that. My son, a microbiologist, says virtually all homebrew batches are 'infected' by bacteria hitching rides on dust and stuff that falls into the cooled wort. The best defense against that is to have the yeast outcompete those nasties, and that means getting it going as soon as you can.

4. Now, having said that, I attended the BYO brewing boot camp in Asheville in March. Chris White, of White Labs fame, Dr. White, taught a Yeast workshop which I attended. He said he wouldn't do a starter w/ liquid yeast, just pitch it in.

5. So my son starts doing that (he's a homebrewer too). Made a very nice Kolsch just pitching a tube of WLP029 into the wort. Took 36 hours to get going, but the beer, at this point, was very good. I'd have another. Well, I did.

6. So we brew the same thing this weekend, more or less. I get the wort in my Spike conical, oxygenate it with an O2 tank and wand, and pitch the warmed-up yeast into 70-degree wort. I let it sit at that temp for about 8 hours gradually dropping it to 60 degrees.

7. It took that yeast 24 hours to get going. Better than my son's experience, but still--24 hours? I'm used to 4 hours!

8. Some yeast strains don't come in dry form, so you're left with liquid yeast as the option. Thus one should be concerned about stir plates and starters, or at least aware of them w/r/t this issue....which maybe is why you're asking the question.

9. Dry yeast: There's disagreement as to whether you should rehydrate it or not. The general consensus, based on what the yeast companies themselves are saying is, no need. It's pretty darned simple, just sprinkle it on top of the wort.

10. I do starters differently than most people (there are only 3 or 4 of us here who do this). I try to time them so I'm pitching them into the fermenter about 17-18 hours after I began the starter--and I pitch the whole starter into the wort, no crashing and decanting. The yeast at 18 hours in the starter are active, and I pitch them into wort the same temp as the starter. And they keep going. That wort, of course, is oxygenated.

11. I was kicking myself yesterday and pitching the yeast w/ no starter. I do Low Oxygen brewing and invest a fair amount of time in trying to avoid oxygen on the hot (mash) side. It's one reason why I want the starter to get going fast.

But.....after all that effort to protect the malt flavors in the wort, what do I do? I oxygenate the wort, and then it takes 24 hours to get going, during which time the oxygen is working on the malt flavors. Never again.

12. So--I'm a liquid yeast starter guy. I'm convinced dry yeast can work well too, limited though the strains are.

Notes taken! I could see wilds getting into the wort, but hadn’t thought about bacteria in dust before the bugs take hold.

Thanks!

 

[cswant88]

The constant aeration from a stir plate will get you much higher cell counts from smaller starters, even aerating 3 times a day.

I use the stir starter http://stirstarters.com/ and it works great, comes with a stir bar and keeper magnet. A 2L erlenmeyer will do for most ales. You’ll need bigger if your brewing a big beer, or lager, or if you want to overbuild to harvest some for reuse later. If you plan to do any of those things, go straight for a 4 or 5L flask and be done with it. Use light DME and keep the OG around 1.037-1.040.

A quick google search will find you a calculator. Plug in the OG of the beer you’re planning to brew, the OG of your starter, the yeast and manufacture date. It will tell you the cell count needed, and how big of a starter/qty of dme needed to get you there.

Here is my process, using 1.037 OG for all starters:

1. Set out yeast packet to warm up to room temp. Dissolve 1/4tsp yeast nutrient and dme in water and drop in the stir bar as it’s coming to a boil, and then boil for 10 minutes.

2. Sanitize flask while it’s boiling. Cover with sanitized foil. (Some people boil and cool in the flask, this makes me nervous, even with lab grade glassware, so I don’t do it.)

3. Cover, turn off heat, cool in ice bath in the sink. Sanitize funnel, yeast packet, and scissors while cooling. Swirl pot to speed up cooling.

4. Once cooled to room temp, dry the exterior of the pot and spray with sanitizer so you don’t drip any sink water into your starter.

5. Pour wort and stir bar into flask. Shake/knead yeast packet, open and dump into flask. Cover loosely with sanitized foil.

6. Place on stir plate and slowly turn it up to get a good vortex going (about 3/4 speed on the stir starter).

7. After 36 hrs remove from stir plate, tighten the foil down and pop it right into the fridge.

8. while my wort is chilling on brew day, After 36-48 hrs in fridge, put the keeper magnet on the bottom, decant most of the “beer”, recover and sit at room temp to warm up some. I try to pitch cooler then let it warm up, rather than the other way around.

9. Aerate wort, swirl flask to stir the yeast up into a slurry, pitch. Make sure your keeper magnet is in place.

It sounds like a lot of work but there isn’t really much too it. Just plan out your brew day and get your starter going a few days before.

You can also make large quantities of starter wort in advance and can it. You can google the procedure for this, but the important part is It needs to be pressure canned at 15psi. Just boil canning isn’t gonna cut it, it needs to reach higher temps. Then you can store it in the pantry until open your jars, dump into your flask and add the yeast. You can also buy cans of starter wort if you choose.

I’m not against dry yeast either, it has its place. I just make sure to weigh it out and pitch the proper amount (considering package size and age.) Rehydrate per manufacturers recommendations. If I’m using dry I’ll add a little yeast nutrient towards the end of the boil, and i still aerate even though it’s not technically necessary.

 

[Jag75]

Stir plate and flask are great tools . Get a couple of stir bars . Use magnets to hold stirbar in flask while pitching yeast . I've dumped my stir bar into the fermenter , no big deal though.

Another way for starter build is shaken not stirred starter. Works great . You can find that in the search window . I just learned about it and used it with success for a spontaneous brew day .

One thing that's been a game changer for me has been the canned wort starter . Its worth its weight in gold .

 

[DVCNick]

I'm not an expert, got 15 batches total under my belt.

I've made good tasty beer with good attenuation every time I've just pitched dry yeast onto the wort. If you are happy with the results and the cost of doing it this way, I don't see any reason to stop.

The issues that will come up as follows:
1) you want to make a beer that needs a yeast only available as a liquid
2) you want to reuse yeast to save money

I would definitely get set up to handle liquid yeast/starters if you have not yet, as you will almost certainly encounter one of the situations above if you have any interest in expanding your brewing horizons at some point.

Also, liquid yeast packs start with a cell count that is well under what the calculators say you should have, and they have lost at least some viability by the time you get them. So I don't know about just pitching a straight liquid pack with no starter. I have zero understanding of why the cell count matters, but, I will say that the worst tasting beer I ever made was also the only batch where I just pitched a liquid pack with no starter. I don't know if that was the cause, but that beer just had very little flavor in general.

If for no other reason, as someone who is interested in pulling out as much cost as reasonably possible, I use about $1.80 worth of DME in a starter, vs. $5 at the very cheapest for a fresh dry pack of US-05. Liquid yeast packs of course go up in cost from there starting at about $8.

For me: I use 6oz DME in a 1.5L+ starter. I really don't do anything special. I do the boil in a regular pot to maintain better control of boil overs... they are VERY VERY easy to accomplish if you boil in the flask. I cool in the pot, and sanitize the flask with star san just like you would a fermenter. I cover it with a sanitized piece of aluminum foil and swish it around every time I walk past. When it is time to pitch, I pour a little bit off for cold storage to use as the seed for my next starter, and the rest (1-1.5L) goes in the wort.

It isn't an exact science but I've made tasty beer every time with this method. I might upgrade to a stir plate someday.

 

[kh54s10]

Read this and the link at the bottom also before deciding on a stir plate. Note: I haven't tried the method.

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/denny/old-dognew-tricks

 

[Jag75]

Read this and the link at the bottom also before deciding on a stir plate. Note: I haven't tried the method.

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/denny/old-dognew-tricks

It really works . Especially if you decide to do a brew on a whim. I did it the night before I brewed . It had action in about 16 hours .

 

[IslandLizard]

It really works . Especially if you decide to do a brew on a whim. I did it the night before I brewed . It had action in about 16 hours .

Getting a sanitizable vessel that's large enough is the bigger problem.
The best compromise is using a one gallon clear "wine jug" as sold in your LHBS, and get a few screw caps or a solid rubber stopper. Clean, sanitize and add your yeast and 1 quart of 1.037-1.040 wort.

Shaking vigorously and often is key, yeast grows in the foam. Let some fresh air (O2) in before shaking.
I wonder if doping the wort/yeast mixture with pure O2 for a minute, then sealing the jug would result in even better/faster propagation due to the very oxygen-rich headspace.

Like @mongoose33 I too oxygenate my starters, and noticed remarkably good and fast yeast growth.

 

[OpenSights]

Tons of great info, lots to absorb!

The flask I have is used, so true condition is unknown. I’ve seen YouTube videos of people bringing the starter to a boil in the glass... not going to risk that! Might be ok and widely practice, but I’m not expected enough to know what not to do.

Before buying a stir plate I’ll definitely try the shake method first. As much as a tool/gadget guy as I am, I just want one, but if unnecessary....

So making a yeast starter using a dry yeast? Is that something that’s just needed, no advantage to it? Or am I over reading?

I try and brew at least once a month so I don’t know how advantageous keeping a starter on hand would be for me, plus seasonal variations, especially come cider season!

Stir plate and flask are great tools . Get a couple of stir bars . Use magnets to hold stirbar in flask while pitching yeast . I've dumped my stir bar into the fermenter , no big deal though.

Another way for starter build is shaken not stirred starter. Works great . You can find that in the search window . I just learned about it and used it with success for a spontaneous brew day .

One thing that's been a game changer for me has been the canned wort starter . Its worth its weight in gold .

Tell me about canned starters? Long term storage I assume. I’ll start looking around.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Jag75]

Tons of great info, lots to absorb!

The flask I have is used, so true condition is unknown. I’ve seen YouTube videos of people bringing the starter to a boil in the glass... not going to risk that! Might be ok and widely practice, but I’m not expected enough to know what not to do.

Before buying a stir plate I’ll definitely try the shake method first. As much as a tool/gadget guy as I am, I just want one, but if unnecessary....

So making a yeast starter using a dry yeast? Is that something that’s just needed, no advantage to it? Or am I over reading?

I try and brew at least once a month so I don’t know how advantageous keeping a starter on hand would be for me, plus seasonal variations, especially come cider season!



Tell me about canned starters? Long term storage I assume. I’ll start looking around.

Thanks everyone!

My LHBS turned me onto them. I get a six pack and use as needed. I'm sure the shelf life is decent on em . I haven't really held onto one for very long. I just know that there is no boil overs. It's just really fast and simple . Pour the can in your flask and fill the can with Distilled water and pour into the flask , add yeast and that's it .

 

[mongoose33]

Tons of great info, lots to absorb!

The flask I have is used, so true condition is unknown. I’ve seen YouTube videos of people bringing the starter to a boil in the glass... not going to risk that! Might be ok and widely practice, but I’m not expected enough to know what not to do.

The flasks are borosilicate glass (Pyrex) that can be heated and cooled rapidly. If you don't know that yours is, don't assume it.

Before buying a stir plate I’ll definitely try the shake method first. As much as a tool/gadget guy as I am, I just want one, but if unnecessary....

It'll work, just a question of how close to a stir plate, or a stir plate and oxygenating the starter wort, it will be.

So making a yeast starter using a dry yeast? Is that something that’s just needed, no advantage to it? Or am I over reading?

No, don't make a starter using dry yeast. Just sprinkle it in the fermenter's wort, swish around, and you're good to go. The manufacturing method for dry yeast packs it with sterols, which are used to make cell walls. Normally yeast need oxygen to make sterols, but they're there in the dry yeast. So just sprinkle. Some rehydrate the dry yeast, but even that appears to be unnecessary.

I try and brew at least once a month so I don’t know how advantageous keeping a starter on hand would be for me, plus seasonal variations, especially come cider season!

I don't know what you mean by "keeping a starter on hand."

Tell me about canned starters? Long term storage I assume. I’ll start looking around.

Thanks everyone!

Canned starters are starter wort that is clean and sterile. It eliminates the step of boiling DME prior to making the starter.

 

[OpenSights]

Getting a sanitizable vessel that's large enough is the bigger problem.
The best compromise is using a one gallon clear "wine jug" as sold in your LHBS, and get a few screw caps or a solid rubber stopper. Clean, sanitize and add your yeast and 1 quart of 1.037-1.040 wort.

Shaking vigorously and often is key, yeast grows in the foam. Let some fresh air (O2) in before shaking.
I wonder if doping the wort/yeast mixture with pure O2 for a minute, then sealing the jug would result in even better/faster propagation due to the very oxygen-rich headspace.

Like @mongoose33 I too oxygenate my starters, and noticed remarkably good and fast yeast growth.

So in a starter the rules are a bit different. O2 is bad for beer, but a yeast starter from wort, basically is a good thing. I understand the starter is basically the incubation of the yeast cells and yeast needs o2 to propagate, but once the yeast is pitched into beer wort it is the end all for o2 in your beer.

So when making a starter, would this be the reason to decant the majority of the starter? To remove the possibilities of off flavors?

Sorry for any “duh” questions. Just trying to get a grasp.

I know there’s more than one way to skin a cat... what works for one might not work for the next person....

 

[Jag75]

Like Islandlizard said you have to have a big enough bottle for the shakin not stirred method. My wife has 1 gallon glass jugs with screw on lids she uses for cold brew coffee . I think they're actually for kambucha. They work well.

 

[OpenSights]

Here’s what I have, top line that is hard to see is 2000. Just came with a good deal off of Craigslist. Why not try it out?

I mostly do 5 gallon batches, but want to start 10 gallons and split at secondary. 1 control and one experiment.

I have lots of 1 gallon fermenters that I can use too.

Again, thanks for all the help and advice!

 

[IslandLizard]

So in a starter the rules are a bit different. O2 is bad for beer, but a yeast starter from wort, basically is a good thing. I understand the starter is basically the incubation of the yeast cells and yeast needs o2 to propagate, but once the yeast is pitched into beer wort it is the end all for o2 in your beer.

So when making a starter, would this be the reason to decant the majority of the starter? To remove the possibilities of off flavors?

Sorry for any “duh” questions. Just trying to get a grasp.

I know there’s more than one way to skin a cat... what works for one might not work for the next person....

Yes, that's the idea.
There are no 'duh' questions here.

Cold crashing, then decanting the starter beer before pitching is good practice. It prevents diluting your main batch and any possible off flavors from the not so good tasting oxidized starter beer.
It also allows you to propagate more yeast, by adding more starter strength wort to (part of) the slurry. Use a yeast calculator such as BrewUnited's to estimate cell counts and what size starter is needed for your pitch.

Now, many brewers say they don't notice when pitching the whole starter, slurry plus all starter beer. But I'm willing to bet one could tell the difference between pitching the slurry only and slurry plus the gallon of used-up starter beer on top, say in a 5 gallon batch of good Pilsner or Kolsch wort. It may still be subtle, though.

 

[OpenSights]

I’m going to have to play around with that calculator.

This rabbit hole has me coming up with more questions with every answer....

 

[IslandLizard]

but want to start 10 gallons and split at secondary

You didn't get the memo yet?
Secondaries are generally not needed and are often detrimental to beer. Oxidation and infection are the buzzwords here.

But feel free to brew 10 gallons of wort and ferment as 2 separate batches, each in their own vessel.

Here’s what I have, top line that is hard to see is 2000. Just came with a good deal off of Craigslist. Why not try it out?

Flasks are great on a stir plate or orbital shaker. But no good for the 'shaken-not-stirred' method as a) there is no way to get a good seal on the top, and b) they're too small for that (5:1 volume is preferred).

 

[IslandLizard]

This rabbit hole...

...goes deep.

But you won't regret it, there's usually a treasure at every bend.

 

[LittleRiver]

...So making a yeast starter using a dry yeast? ...

Make a starter for all yeast. Make it twice as large as you need it to be, and save half in the fridge for next time. Your yeast costs will plummet.

I use DME to make starters for beer. For cider I use apple juice, for mead I use honey (only one batch of mead under my belt so far). For all of them I have saved yeast in the fridge -- no need to buy more when I want to brew.

I like my stirplate and 2L flask. In my opinion they're well worth what I have in them (which is not much since I built the stirplate).

 

[mongoose33]

Yes, that's the idea.
There are no 'duh' questions here.

Cold crashing, then decanting the starter beer before pitching is good practice. It prevents diluting your main batch and any possible off flavors from the not so good tasting oxidized starter beer.
It also allows you to propagate more yeast, by adding more starter strength wort to (part of) the slurry. Use a yeast calculator such as BrewUnited's to estimate cell counts and what size starter is needed for your pitch.

Now, many brewers say they don't notice when pitching the whole starter, slurry plus all starter beer. But I'm willing to bet one could tell the difference between pitching the slurry only and slurry plus the gallon of used-up starter beer on top, say in a 5 gallon batch of good Pilsner or Kolsch wort. It may still be subtle, though.

I'd love to have you taste mine, see if you can detect any of those off flavors. I'd bet you couldn't. But then, I'm pitching a liter of starter, not a gallon. Maybe with a gallon? That'd be a pretty big dilution. If i had a gallon starter I'd crash and decant it, as I'd be adding such a large proportion of "beer" that wasn't what I'd intended.

I've done the light lager things with the "pitch the starter all in" method, and had some pretty good palates taste that beer. Not only did they rave about it, no such off flavors were indicated.

I'm a believer in that when the yeast clean up after themselves at the end of fermentation, they clean up off flavors--if any--that were in my pitched starter. I can't see how there can be much--if any--effect of this. After all, we're oxygenating the wort in the fermenter, and the yeast don't get all of that; some is oxidizing the wort, though hopefully not much.

Plus, when I pitch a 1-liter starter in a 22-liter batch, if--if--there are any discernable off flavors, they're pretty diluted.

The best argument I've heard for not pitching the entire starter is dilution of the beer. It's not being diluted by much, but granted there is a little. Since I'm starting with a 1.040 starter, pitching it into a 1.060 wort would dilute the gravity by about...a point.

But...the argument in favor of pitching the entire starter is much stronger, IMO. Fermentation takes off, outcompeting any microbiological nasties that might create actual off flavors in the beer. Between the bar owner that wants to sell my beer, friends who want to buy it, and other friends with terrific palates who think it's pretty good......I'm not convinced that what I do has any deleterious effect on the beer at all, and it probably is, if not neutral, a positive.

My 2 cents.

 

[OpenSights]

So if the dry yeasts I’m use to, mostly US-05, S-04, Nottingham, Premier Blanc... not good to make starters with. Best to use liquid packs.... I’m going to have to start looking into them, as far as what characteristics they bring.

 

[mongoose33]

So if the dry yeasts I’m use to, mostly US-05, S-04, Nottingham, Premier Blanc... not good to make starters with. Best to use liquid packs.... I’m going to have to start looking into them, as far as what characteristics they bring.

No, you're misunderstanding this. If you want to use those dry yeasts, go ahead--just don't make starters with them. They aren't designed for that.

 

[Jag75]

No, you're misunderstanding this. If you want to use those dry yeasts, go ahead--just don't make starters with them. They aren't designed for that.

I think that's what hes saying .

 

[DVCNick]

With US-05 I have not made a starter where I pitched the dry yeast straight out of the pack into the starter like you do for liquid yeast. (I bet it would work though). Rather, I've just saved some of the slurry at the bottom of the fermenter after a batch with US-05, and done a liquid starter with that as the seed, effectively converting it to liquid yeast after the first batch.

 

[OpenSights]

Making a starter is starting to make sense.

I have two stouts and a doppelbock with S-04 ready to be kegged.

So if I wash these yeasts, make a starter, should I only use them on like beer wort?

 

[mongoose33]

mongoose33 said: ↑
No, you're misunderstanding this. If you want to use those dry yeasts, go ahead--just don't make starters with them. They aren't designed for that.

I think that's what hes saying .

It's confusing. He wrote it as if it's only desirable to use starters, and that dry yeast, since it's not suitable for starters, is not suitable, period.

So that's what I was trying to clear up. Maybe confused it more, I don't know.

 

[Jag75]

It's confusing. He wrote it as if it's only desirable to use starters, and that dry yeast, since it's not suitable for starters, is not suitable, period.

So that's what I was trying to clear up. Maybe confused it more, I don't know.

Lol I know

 

[IslandLizard]

I have two stouts and a doppelbock with S-04 ready to be kegged.

So if I wash these yeasts, make a starter, should I only use them on like beer wort?

Reusing yeast from high gravity fermentations is not recommended, it's been stressed. Don't reuse yeast from beers 1.070 and up, as a guide. so harvesting from your Doppelbock is out, so are those from any RIS, Old Ales, Barleywines, Quads, etc.

You really don't need to 'wash' yeast (rinse, actually). You can pitch directly from the harvested cake, about 1/5 - 1/4 worth.

Don't repitch from very hoppy or very dark beers into much more subtle or lighter styles, generally. Now washing can remove a lot of color, hop debris, trub, etc. but you need to count on making a starter with whatever clean yeast was harvested that way, a lot of good yeast remains in the trub. I've successfully filtered trubby yeast through a piece of voile.

Needless to say, utter care with sanitation is mandatory or you'll grow infections along with the yeast.

 

[LittleRiver]

...So if I wash these yeasts, make a starter, should I only use them on like beer wort?

For beers that are similar there's no need to wash the yeast. Just collect it into sanitized glass jars and store it in your fridge. The yeast will settle to the bottom, beneath the beer. It will be fine for many months. To make a starter, put some of it (a tablespoon will usually do) in your starter wort, and put it on the stir plate for 2-3 days.

If you will be brewing soon after you have collected the yeast (within a few weeks), there's no need to do a starter at all, just pitch some of the saved slurry into the new batch of wort. I usually pitch about 4oz when doing that.

You can pitch a slurry from a light colored beer into a darker beer without worry of it affecting the color. For the reverse it makes sense to wash the yeast and make a starter. You'll also want to wash and make a starter if you feel the slurry may have a strong hop character you don't want to risk carrying over to your current batch.

 

[OpenSights]

Makes sense.

I brew so many different styles, not sure if keeping or bothering washing yeast will be worth it. Come cider season this will be worth it big time!

So what liquid yeasts be good replacements for US-05, S-04.... the ones I know?

 

[LittleRiver]

So if the dry yeasts I’m use to, mostly US-05, S-04, Nottingham, Premier Blanc... not good to make starters with....

Just to clarify, you can make a starter from any new yeast, dry or liquid (or from slurry saved from a brew made with either).

Making a starter from a fresh pack of dry or liquid yeast, pitching half of it, and saving half for next time will save you a lot of money over time and you will always have fresh "clean" yeast (yeast from slurry may carry over some color or flavor from the previous brew).

 

[RPh_Guy]

Not all yeast is the same and therefore not all yeast should be treated the same.

I recommend:
Hefeweizen yeast - No starter; underpitch.

Belgian yeast - Vitality starter*; underpitch.

Kveik - No starter; extreme underpitch optional.

Brett - Make starter at least a week beforehand. Do not aerate.

Lactobacillus (bacteria) - Buffered starter for several days, no aeration.

Low-oxygen brewing - Always pitch active yeast (not cold crashed).

What does a starter do? (Liquid yeast)
It increases cell count to reduce stress during fermentation. (Low starting cell count are much more likely to produce off-flavors.)
It lets you know the yeast is alive.
It can let you know if it's contaminated.
It gives you a preview of the yeast aroma.
It decreases lag time (possibly lowering the risk of contamination).

*Vitality starter: Add yeast to 500mL 1.036-1.040 sterile chilled wort and stir for 4 hours. Pitch the whole thing (it will be at high kräusen).

As mentioned, constant aeration produces a higher cell count. A stir plate is the best way to accomplish this.

Things to consider. Cheers!

 

[OpenSights]

Just to clarify, you can make a starter from any new yeast, dry or liquid (or from slurry saved from a brew made with either).

Making a starter from a fresh pack of dry or liquid yeast, pitching half of it, and saving half for next time will save you a lot of money over time and you will always have fresh "clean" yeast (yeast from slurry may carry over some color or flavor from the previous brew).

So making a starter from dry and keeping it going...

Also read today that the nutrients they use to dehydrate the yeast makes it basically a one time use yeast... but the context was regarding saving and washing from an initial ferment.

 

[OpenSights]

Not all yeast is the same and therefore not all yeast should be treated the same.

I recommend:
Hefeweizen yeast - No starter; underpitch.

Belgian yeast - Vitality starter*; underpitch.

Kveik - No starter; extreme underpitch optional.

Brett - Make starter at least a week beforehand. Do not aerate.

Lactobacillus (bacteria) - Buffered starter for several days, no aeration.

Low-oxygen brewing - Always pitch active yeast (not cold crashed).

What does a starter do? (Liquid yeast)
It increases cell count to reduce stress during fermentation. (Low starting cell count are much more likely to produce off-flavors.)
It lets you know the yeast is alive.
It can let you know if it's contaminated.
It gives you a preview of the yeast aroma.
It decreases lag time (possibly lowering the risk of contamination).

*Vitality starter: Add yeast to 500mL 1.036-1.040 sterile chilled wort and stir for 4 hours. Pitch the whole thing (it will be at high kräusen).

As mentioned, constant aeration produces a higher cell count. A stir plate is the best way to accomplish this.

Things to consider. Cheers!

Starting to get into sours, an odd turn for me as I don’t care for them, but at the same time about to exchange 5 gallons of doppelbock for 5 gallons of club sour.

 

[trevelynzx]

Just boil canning isn’t gonna cut it, it needs to reach higher temps.

What’s the concern with boil canning? That’s worked fine for me for dozens of gallons of starter wort.

 

[passedpawn]

What’s the concern with boil canning? That’s worked fine for me for dozens of gallons of starter wort.

You're creating a great environment for clostridium botulinum (and botulism). The spores live through 212F, and thrive afterwards in the neutral-pH sugary O2-free environment.

But I get it, it's worked so far for you, go for it.

 

[OpenSights]

What’s the concern with boil canning? That’s worked fine for me for dozens of gallons of starter wort.

This is one subject that I’m confused about.

Are the jars boiled to be sanitized? AFAIK boiling wort with yeast will kill yeast, or are we boiling and canning wort in advance to make a starter? The sound of this makes sense...