yeast starters vs double pitching

[ChrisHansen]

yeast starters vs double pitching,

I'm new to brewing and have done a few of the extract ale kits off NB, I still plan on getting a few more under my belt before I do anything crazy but was wondering for the barley wines and heavier beers that have a higher OG and require more yeast, which option is best? Nothing against either website I love them both and order from both, but I have noticed when looking at the recipe kits on austin home brew's site it recommends the double pitching option and when looking at similar ingredient kits on northern brew it recommends the yeast starting option. I was thinking the yeast starter was the better option just because double pitching sounds to easy. Any advice is always appreciated and used!

 

[EarlyBirdBrew]

On my first big beer from AHS I followed the instructions and double pitched but when I was there buying the ingredients they asked me if I was going to do a starter or double pitch. They will both get the job done, mine fermented up just fine with a double pitch, but I will say that doing starter will save you money since you won't have to buy two packs of yeast.

I'll be doing a starter anytime I do a big beer for that reason alone.

 

[rkiser]

I have been double pitching on anything that has required or recommended a starter and it has worked just fine. I agree on the money factor though; I'm sure DME will be cheaper.

 

[nefarious_1_]

Personally, I would make a starter. It saves you money and you have the potential/ability to make the yeast count much larger than the yeast count in two vials.

 

[JasonInBTR]

You got it. It is really a factor of money. Check out mrmalty.com if you haven't already. A 1.060 beer needs about 200B cells. A pack of Wyeast has about 100B in it if they are all viable. So you need AT A MINIMUM of 2 packs of yeast without a starter. My initial supplies for doing solid yeast starters are as follows:

Stirplate (stirstarters.com) $42
2000ml flask (stirstarters.com) $25
5lbs of DME (AHS) $4
Wyeast Nutrient (AHS) $3

Total cost: ~$75

ROI is about 10 batches if you are just double pitching. Could be significantly cheaper if you DIY the stirplate and get a flask off of Ebay (I'm lazy). You also have a LOT more control over the pitching rate (different starter volumes, etc).

On another note......I just started slanting as well. This has the potential to save me a ton of money.....and it is really cool.

HTH,
Jason

 

[TheSeether]

The fact is when you start getting into 1.090 and higher OG your pitch rates start 400B and go North quickly. At this point even double or triple pitching doesn't cut it. OP mentioned barleywine and at that gravity (1.100+) you need to making starters or working off the cake from a previous fermentation (essentially a giant starter).

 

[Homebrewtastic]

The one thing that a starter has over double pitching is that a starter helps to guarantee yeast viability and health. Yeast health is more important than cell count.

 

[SumnerH]

You got it. It is really a factor of money. Check out mrmalty.com if you haven't already. A 1.060 beer needs about 200B cells. A pack of Wyeast has about 100B in it if they are all viable. So you need AT A MINIMUM of 2 packs of yeast without a starter. My initial supplies for doing solid yeast starters are as follows:

Stirplate (stirstarters.com) $42
2000ml flask (stirstarters.com) $25
5lbs of DME (AHS) $4
Wyeast Nutrient (AHS) $3

Total cost: ~$75

ROI is about 10 batches if you are just double pitching. Could be significantly cheaper if you DIY the stirplate and get a flask off of Ebay (I'm lazy). You also have a LOT more control over the pitching rate (different starter volumes, etc).

You also don't need a stirplate if you shake constantly and make a bit bigger starter, and you can get a 1 gallon glass jug of apple juice for $7 and then clean the jug and use it to make your starters in. That makes the total cost about $14, which you'll recoup in 2-3 brews. OTOH, making the starter requires planning ahead and takes some extra effort.

 

[gunner65]

Its really to simple to think about.

1 cup of DME and 32 oz of water. Boil for 15 minutes chill to 70-80F aerate, pitch, cover, done. 1-2 days later you have enough yeast for the biggest of beers.

 

[ajf]

Dry yeast. Double pitch if necessary. It's cheaper than making a starter, and I have read somewhere (but I can't remember where) that making a starter for dry yeast is a bad idea.
Liquid yeast. Make a starter. It's much cheaper than double pitching. May also be necessary to step up the starter for lagers or heavy ales; or even medium gravity ales with old yeast.

-a.

 

[ChrisHansen]

All great information, thanks to all! Looks like i will start yeast starting

 

[unionrdr]

Well,after my 1st brew (Cooper's lager kit) starting till morning & stopping again,I decided on this brew to make a starter. I used a 2C (.5L) pyrex measuring cup,to which I added 1 1/2C 150F water. I then added 1/4C of the SDME & stirred. I put in a quick check thermometer,& covered it with plastic wrap. I waited till it got down to about 75F,then added the Cooper's ale yeast sachet,& recovered it. By the time I was ready to pitch 3 hours & 35 mins later,I had a nice,creamy starter! Pitched it at 7:35pm last night,& by 7:10am this morning,the krausen is up to the lid! While I realize my OG was only 1.044,I did use 1.7kg of LME,& 1.4kg of extra light SDME. I figured with all that malt,& no dextrose added,I better make some higher yeast volume. Now,I just hope the airlock doesn't torpedo the ceiling!

 

[dos_perros]

I just made my first starter for the last batch that I made ( AHS Belgian White ). I went pretty basic and just bought a 2000ml flask and some dme from the LHBS. I used the info at Mr. Malty, per suggestions from the fine folks on the board, and it was very simple to do. It does require a little more effort and a little more planning but the results, from what I have heard, read and seen, are worth it. Mr. Malty also has a drop down where you can select how you are making your starter, stir plate, static etc. I just swilred the flask whenever I walked by to get the yeasties up and moving, worked like a dream and I had excellent results. Hope this helps you some, dont be afraid to give it a go.

 

[ChrisHansen]

1 more noob question regarding the starters. It's my understanding that you pitch the starter into the wort at the same time you would normally pitch the yeast, correct? That is once you have the temperature below 75 at least. So in order to do this properly it's best to make the starter a day or so prior to brew day. And when you make the stater are you using a vial of yeast in the flask plus DME and the "activator". Or do you pitch the regular vial of yeast into the cooled wort in the fermenter and then addition to that the starter which is made with the "DME and activator". Can someone correct me on this topic, because I can't find a youtube video or a thread regarding the time line of at which point along the whole process do you actually pitch the starter into the fermenter.

 

[TheSeether]

You definitely pitch the starter into the fermenter after cooling and aerating the wort just as you would with any other yeast.

 

[wi_brewer]

1 more noob question regarding the starters. It's my understanding that you pitch the starter into the wort at the same time you would normally pitch the yeast, correct? That is once you have the temperature below 75 at least. So in order to do this properly it's best to make the starter a day or so prior to brew day. And when you make the stater are you using a vial of yeast in the flask plus DME and the "activator". Or do you pitch the regular vial of yeast into the cooled wort in the fermenter and then addition to that the starter which is made with the "DME and activator". Can someone correct me on this topic, because I can't find a youtube video or a thread regarding the time line of at which point along the whole process do you actually pitch the starter into the fermenter.

Read John Palmer's chapter on making yeast starters. Actually read the whole book.

http://howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-5.html

 

[Wyrmwood]

Double (or triple) pitching is cost effective once you've washed your yeast - unless you are brewing multiple batches, you'll never use up all your washed yeast anyway (since each generation can be harvested). I plan on pitching 2 or 3 bottles AND making a starter for my next high gravity brew. In this case, the starter is more to ensure viability before brew day.

 

[unionrdr]

1 more noob question regarding the starters. It's my understanding that you pitch the starter into the wort at the same time you would normally pitch the yeast, correct? That is once you have the temperature below 75 at least. So in order to do this properly it's best to make the starter a day or so prior to brew day. And when you make the stater are you using a vial of yeast in the flask plus DME and the "activator". Or do you pitch the regular vial of yeast into the cooled wort in the fermenter and then addition to that the starter which is made with the "DME and activator". Can someone correct me on this topic, because I can't find a youtube video or a thread regarding the time line of at which point along the whole process do you actually pitch the starter into the fermenter.

I wouldn't bother adding an activator to a starter that already contains some liquefied DME,since that's what the DME is for. You put all that together to make the starter,let it sit for a couple hours for the average light to light side of medium brew. Overnight for a heavy one,to generalize. What I did for my pale ale was heat a sauce pan of water till it gets to 150F. Then pour 1 1/2C of the hot water into a glass measuring cup,or whatever you're using. Pour in 1/4C DME & stir. Insert a common quick check thermometer,& cover with plastic wrap. Now all you do is wait till it gets down to 70-75F (for ale yeasts,anyway) to mix in the yeast packet (wet or dry). Recover & let it stand till you you figure it's ready.
Then,when you're ready to pitch,just stir it up with a sanitized spoon,dump it in,& give it a stir.
And making a starter for dry yeast isn't going to cause any problems. How do you think they propagated it,anyway?

 

[terrapinj]

1 more noob question regarding the starters. It's my understanding that you pitch the starter into the wort at the same time you would normally pitch the yeast, correct? That is once you have the temperature below 75 at least. So in order to do this properly it's best to make the starter a day or so prior to brew day. And when you make the stater are you using a vial of yeast in the flask plus DME and the "activator". Or do you pitch the regular vial of yeast into the cooled wort in the fermenter and then addition to that the starter which is made with the "DME and activator". Can someone correct me on this topic, because I can't find a youtube video or a thread regarding the time line of at which point along the whole process do you actually pitch the starter into the fermenter.

Activator and Propigator are two types of packing that wyeast uses

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_productdetail.cfm?ProductID=16
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_productdetail.cfm?ProductID=2

even though wyeast suggests the activator can be directly picthed into 5gal most people still make the starter for the activator pack just like they would for a propigator pack or a vial of white labs or other liquid yeast

check out this thread here, really easy to follow:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/how-make-yeast-starter-pictorial-76101/

the timeline depends on your preference: some people make it 24-48 hours before leave it at room temp and then pitch the entire solution while the starter is at high krausen into the wort once it has cooled to picthing temps. others will make it days in advance then put the starter in the fridge after 48 hours or so to let the yeast settle to the bottom and the carefully drain/decant the liquid and just pitch the yeast cake into the wort once it has cooled to pitching temps

 

[unionrdr]

Good info,but my suggestions were mainly for dry yeast,or liquid yeasts that aren't packaged with some kind of nutrient. The smack packs are intended to do that. But ,as stated starters are really great,& not hard to put together. Let's try not to make it seem more complicated than it really is.

 

[Pivovar_Koucky]

Yeast nutrient is a waste of money in beer and an 11g package of dry yeast is plenty for a beer with an OG under 1.070 (probably 1.080).

If you use liquid yeast (which is really only necessary for specialty yeasts like kolsch or lagers) then you should make a starter. There are a number of ways to go about doing this: I pitch the yeast into a 1/2 gallon starter then pitch the starter into the wort at high kraeusen. Some people like to make a bigger starter, let it ferment out, cold crash the yeast (put it in the fridge overnight), then decant off the starter beer and pitch the yeast cake (easier than it sounds).

I do it my way because that's the way recommended by Greg Noonan in "New Brewing Lager Beer" and I think that it's less wasteful. But time is more of a constraint that way and you have to adjust your recipe/hopping rates to account for the extra fermentables. The other way works just fine too.

Repeat: For almost any ale you should just use one packet of dry yeast unless you are concerned about the quality of the yeast. Rehydrate if you like, I don't.

 

[ChrisHansen]

All great info and thanks for all the resources, I would like to taste the same brews side by side one pitched with us05 and the other pitched with a liquid yeast starter to see exactly what different flavors the specialty liquid yeast will bring out.

 

[ajf]

Yeast nutrient is a waste of money in beer

That's not what MB Raines says in http://maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-propagation-and-maintenance-principles-and-practices

I will continue to use nutrients for my starters. It may make a cost difference of a few pennies per brew, but no more than that.

If you use liquid yeast (which is really only necessary for specialty yeasts like kolsch or lagers)

Again, I must disagree.

There are many different liquid yeasts, and relatively few dried varieties. I simply cannot get the results that I want with dried yeast for most of my brews (English Pale Ales). I must admit though, I cannot tell the difference between US-05, WY056, and WLP01. If I'm brewing an APA, I use the US-05

-a.

 

[jonmohno]

All great info and thanks for all the resources, I would like to taste the same brews side by side one pitched with us05 and the other pitched with a liquid yeast starter to see exactly what different flavors the specialty liquid yeast will bring out.

this is what brewing small or splitting batches is good for different yeast or hops its a great way to learn differneces and likes/dislikes

 

[SwampassJ]

If you use liquid yeast (which is really only necessary for specialty yeasts like kolsch or lagers) then you should make a starter.

11 dry yeasts at Brewmasters vs. 50+ Wyeast liquids? If you want your beers to all have the same yeast profile of Nottingham or S05, S04 go for it then.


Mr. Malty has a good pitching rate calculator for beer styles used by the pros. If you don't want to deal with the hassle of a starter double pitching liquid or single pitching a dry equivalent if available will work fine for most ales*.

 

[ChrisHansen]

this is what brewing small or splitting batches is good for different yeast or hops its a great way to learn differneces and likes/dislikes

good point! I'll have to pick up a couple smaller carboys and give this a shot

 

[Yooper]

Good info,but my suggestions were mainly for dry yeast,or liquid yeasts that aren't packaged with some kind of nutrient. The smack packs are intended to do that. But ,as stated starters are really great,& not hard to put together. Let's try not to make it seem more complicated than it really is.

I just want to point out that Wyeast smack packs don't have a starter, and the smack pack isn't meant to take the place of a starter. The smackpack is to check viability- From Wyeast's own website:
The Activator™ package contains a minimum of 100 billion cells in a yeast slurry.. The Activator™ is designed to directly inoculate 5 gallons of standard strength ale wort (1.034-1.060 SG) with professional pitching rates. For lagers, we recommend inoculating the wort at warm temperatures (68-70°F/ 20-21°C), waiting for signs of fermentation, and then adjusting to the desired temperature. Alternatively, for pitching into cold conditions (34-58°F/ 1-14°C) or higher gravity wort, we recommend increasing this pitching rate. This can be achieved by pitching additional Activator™ packages or by making a starter culture. Please see the Pitch Rate section for additional information.

Full swelling of Activator™ packages is not required for their use. The contents of Activator™ packages may be direct-pitched without prior activation. Our smack pack technology is intended to be a tool for your use in determining viability.



Making a starter with dry yeast isn't necessary, and in fact isn't recommended. Rehydrating is, of course. That's because you want to gently "wake up" the yeast by having only water permeate through the cell, and THEN you can pitch it into wort.

 

[sjbeerman]

I would always recommend using starters when pitching liquid yeast regardless of the OG. At 100% viability, you have about 100 billion cells in a smack pack or vial. However, it is unlikely you will receive a 100% viable yeast. If you have 70% viable yeast and pitch two vials for a 1.060 OG wort then you would be underpitching by about 33%. This may lead to an underattenuated beer or off flavors. When using a starter, you are not only building cell count but you are also improving the health of the yeast and preparing them for the main event.

 

[unionrdr]

I just want to point out that Wyeast smack packs don't have a starter, and the smack pack isn't meant to take the place of a starter. The smackpack is to check viability- From Wyeast's own website:
The Activator™ package contains a minimum of 100 billion cells in a yeast slurry.. The Activator™ is designed to directly inoculate 5 gallons of standard strength ale wort (1.034-1.060 SG) with professional pitching rates. For lagers, we recommend inoculating the wort at warm temperatures (68-70°F/ 20-21°C), waiting for signs of fermentation, and then adjusting to the desired temperature. Alternatively, for pitching into cold conditions (34-58°F/ 1-14°C) or higher gravity wort, we recommend increasing this pitching rate. This can be achieved by pitching additional Activator™ packages or by making a starter culture. Please see the Pitch Rate section for additional information.

Full swelling of Activator™ packages is not required for their use. The contents of Activator™ packages may be direct-pitched without prior activation. Our smack pack technology is intended to be a tool for your use in determining viability.



Making a starter with dry yeast isn't necessary, and in fact isn't recommended. Rehydrating is, of course. That's because you want to gently "wake up" the yeast by having only water permeate through the cell, and THEN you can pitch it into wort.

Who recommends no starter for dry yeast? It's not dry when propagated,so why not feed them to wake'em up.? Not to mention,make more live ones. It's working well for me,& the beer smells good.?...

 

[sjbeerman]

Jamil Z. doesn't recommend starters for dry yeast. I believe you can find that in his book "Yeast." From my recollection, making starters with dry yeast can deplete their glycogen reserves, which are needed to attenuate the beer completely.

 

[unionrdr]

Just doesn't make sense to me,since the yeast was propagated in a wet environment. Then dried for shipment. I can't see how he thinks something will be "lost in translation". We'll see when my beer is done. It seems to be chugging merrily along,smells good.? Besides,when we made bread,we always put the yeast in some warm sugar water to get it going before mixing it into the bread dough. And since beer is,essentially liquid bread...

 

[terrapinj]

even the manufacturers do not recommend a starter

they advise either pitching directly or rehydrating

from Fermentis:
http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_S-04_HB.pdf
http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_US-05_HB.pdf

Re-hydrate the dry yeast into yeast cream in a stirred vessel prior to pitching. Sprinkle the dry
yeast in 10 times its own weight of sterile water or wort at 27C ± 3C (80F ± 6F). Once the
expected weight of dry yeast is reconstituted into cream by this method (this takes about 15 to
30 minutes), maintain a gentle stirring for another 30 minutes. Then pitch the resultant cream
into the fermentation vessel.
Alternatively, pitch dry yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of
the wort is above 20C (68F). Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the
yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes
and then mix the wort e.g. using aeration.

 

[unionrdr]

even the manufacturers do not recommend a starter

they advise either pitching directly or rehydrating

from Fermentis:
http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_S-04_HB.pdf
http://www.fermentis.com/FO/pdf/HB/EN/Safale_US-05_HB.pdf

Look at what it says "sterile water OR WORT"!! My putting some SDME into water for the yeast starter,is,as far as the yeast are concerned,wort. And I only let it sit for the 3 1/2 hours it took me to get to the point where I was ready to pitch. Even if you just put the yeast in water,it's gunna do more than just get wet. So you're still doing a starter,albeit a weak one. I don't care what some theory says,I've seen it work,it smells good,seems to be working just fine,close enough. Try it yourself & see what I mean.
*PS-Why do you think they keep re-writing their books? Because they learn what they thought was true,wasn't.

 

[TheSeether]

Just doesn't make sense to me,since the yeast was propagated in a wet environment. Then dried for shipment. I can't see how he thinks something will be "lost in translation".

It's a simple matter of WHEN the drying stage was initiated. Glycogen reserves are stored at a specific stage and they are used at a separate specific stage.

Read the 3rd paragraph at this link and consider that WHEN the manufacturer harvests and dries the yeast directly impacts WHEN and HOW you should introduce it to your beer.

I would tend to side with the manufacturer recommendations on this one although I have no doubts you will still get good beer using your method.

 

[unionrdr]

It's a simple matter of WHEN the drying stage was initiated. Glycogen reserves are stored at a specific stage and they are used at a separate specific stage.

Read the 3rd paragraph at this link and consider that WHEN the manufacturer harvests and dries the yeast directly impacts WHEN and HOW you should introduce it to your beer.

I would tend to side with the manufacturer recommendations on this one although I have no doubts you will still get good beer using your method.

Well,my biggest problem with big companies (I was in middle management with a multi-national),was that they didn't move me further up the ladder because I learned way too fast. Corporate clones don't encourage free thinking. How does this apply? Take there words with a grain of salt. Then think "ok. that's how they did it. How can I do it?". Besides,they wanna sell you more yeast,not have you buy 1 & make all you need by yourself. That corporate attitude is still burn into my brain. That's why I'm suspicious of what they tell MR John Q. Nobody...But,beyond that we're cool. I'm Not hatin on any of you,just standing up for what i see in my own experiments. Cheers-n-beers y'all!

 

[wulfsburg]

I wanna chime in and ask a dumb question.
I just did 2 double ipas within the past month. One is in the bottle conditioning, the other is in 2dary. The one in the bottle was Pac Man wyeast. We smacked it and threw it in. The other one is Safale 05 . I sprinkled it in the aerated wort like I always do. Both of them ended up 1.089. Both big beers.

If the yeast is not in good health, what happens? Bad beer? Not as good beer? Longer fermentation times? I have never used a starter, but I make a lot of big beers. I did the same thing with my Russian Imperial Stout. Safale 05 pitched straight into the wort foam. All of my big beers turn out better than my mellower beers. I assume its because there is more to mask any off flavors. (big malt bill or big hop bill seems to always cover it)

 

[unionrdr]

I wanna chime in and ask a dumb question.
I just did 2 double ipas within the past month. One is in the bottle conditioning, the other is in 2dary. The one in the bottle was Pac Man wyeast. We smacked it and threw it in. The other one is Safale 05 . I sprinkled it in the aerated wort like I always do. Both of them ended up 1.089. Both big beers.

If the yeast is not in good health, what happens? Bad beer? Not as good beer? Longer fermentation times? I have never used a starter, but I make a lot of big beers. I did the same thing with my Russian Imperial Stout. Safale 05 pitched straight into the wort foam. All of my big beers turn out better than my mellower beers. I assume its because there is more to mask any off flavors. (big malt bill or big hop bill seems to always cover it)

That might be it. With that much flavor complexities,it's possible. But if your FG's are so high,dare I even ask what the OG's were? Anyway,I have problems with the Cooper's dry yeast,so I made a starter this next time,& it started in the wee hours of the morning before I got up & checked it at 7:10am. It works way faster & stronger for me...:rockin:

 

[Yooper]

Look at what it says "sterile water OR WORT"!! My putting some SDME into water for the yeast starter,is,as far as the yeast are concerned,wort. And I only let it sit for the 3 1/2 hours it took me to get to the point where I was ready to pitch. Even if you just put the yeast in water,it's gunna do more than just get wet. So you're still doing a starter,albeit a weak one. I don't care what some theory says,I've seen it work,it smells good,seems to be working just fine,close enough. Try it yourself & see what I mean.
*PS-Why do you think they keep re-writing their books? Because they learn what they thought was true,wasn't.

I don't think that saying "it works for me" is good science. Sure, it'll work. We're just trying to give you some science behind WHY certain things are done. You can actually add ONE yeast cell to wort and it'll eventually ferment. It doesn't mean it's the best way to have healthy yeast.

Coopers yeast and Munton's yeast aren't quality yeast anyway, so I don't think you can hurt them much.

 

[Yooper]

I wanna chime in and ask a dumb question.
I just did 2 double ipas within the past month. One is in the bottle conditioning, the other is in 2dary. The one in the bottle was Pac Man wyeast. We smacked it and threw it in. The other one is Safale 05 . I sprinkled it in the aerated wort like I always do. Both of them ended up 1.089. Both big beers.

If the yeast is not in good health, what happens? Bad beer? Not as good beer? Longer fermentation times? I have never used a starter, but I make a lot of big beers. I did the same thing with my Russian Imperial Stout. Safale 05 pitched straight into the wort foam. All of my big beers turn out better than my mellower beers. I assume its because there is more to mask any off flavors. (big malt bill or big hop bill seems to always cover it)

Stressed yeast will have some off-flavors, usually. Sometimes you'll get some phenols (clove-like or medicinal flavors) or some esters (fruity flavors, like bubble gum or bananas) or sometimes some stronger foul flavors like band-aids.

The great thing about dry yeast is that it has more yeast in it than you usually need in each package (those 11 gram packages of Danstar products, not the Coopers or Munton's garbage), so even if some die off right away from improper hydration, there are still plenty left to ferment. Temperature control, and proper pitching rates are critical to getting the best out of your yeast but it is forgiving too- especially with ales that already have some flavor that may "hide" some flaws better.

For more great info on yeast, check out this site: http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

 

[unionrdr]

It works for me works well since,1st of all I got "A's" in the living sciences. 2nd,this isn't rocket science,it's nature. And off flavors more often as not,are produced by high temps,or wide temp variations. Particularly,the fruity esters,various other alcohols,or/dry taste. I experienced thes myself,as I'm sure many of you have. And the average "ale" isn't like a stout or porter. Let alone other high gravity,heavy flavored beers. I seriously doubt that any off flavors will be had from getting the wort to ferment faster than 2 or 3 days. Waiting that long,in my experience,had quite the opposite effect. They say that in many books,articles,etc as well. And just adding dry yeast to water isn't the healthiest thing to do for the yeast. They are also propagating in the starter,so they will produce whatever chemicals they need to be healthy. if it was so bad for them,you'd smell it & see it quite easily. They wouldn't be fruitful & multiply. So this is really quite pointless. It works for so many people,& that's ok,why not me?