Yeast starter size...

[banks412]

Hi All,

I recently acquired all the necessary supplies to begin doing yeast starters for my beers. Having said that, when I watch various 'how-to' videos and visit my LHBS, everyone seems to be different in the size of the starter needed. For example, Northern Brewer's You Tube video suggests 1 cup DME with 1500ml of H20. My LHBS sells 2 tablespoon 'packages' of yeast starter to be mixed with a pint of water.

So, I'm a little confused as to where to start with volume. Should I let my Starting Gravity decide? I'm going to be doing one for a small, one gallon apple wine to get the process down and will be pitching it tonight or tomorrow morning but I just don't know which way to go. I think I'll make the smaller starter for this batch and go the Northern Brewer route for my Honey Brown I'll be brewing on Thursday.

Thanks in advance as always...
tb

 

[ColoHox]

Making starters will help your beers a lot. Use the calculator over at Mr. Malty to determine the size (volume) of your starter based on the expected gravity of your wort. The gravity of a starter is normally around 1.040.

 

[archer75]

The starter size depends on the OG of your beer.

My rule of thumb is 100 grams of DME per 1000ml of water.

I use the calculator on Mr Malty linked above. Get yourself a stir plate, or build one, it helps.

If the recommended starter size is under 1L I typically don't bother. Anything larger I do make.

 

[banks412]

Thanks guys. I'll check out Mr Malty for my brown ale. I've gone ahead and pitched the starter I made for the apple wine. Didn't think about pitching a 'mini-beer' into my apple juice, but I'm sure it'll ferment out nicely. I added some spices to this small 1 gal batch to see what'd happen!

As for future batches of apple wine - should I just use apple juice for the starter or should I just continue as normal and use DME?

 

[banks412]

Ok, so according to Mr Malty, it looks like I need a 1000ml starter, right? Based on archer's recommendation above, I'd need to add 100g of my DME to my 1000ml of water. Sorry - not trying to make this overly hard or complicated, but I want to make sure I get this beer right. I've made a lot of process changes (fermentation chamber, yeast starters, clarifiers) since my last batch, and I really want to get this one right...

Thanks again,
tb

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

If you are considering using apple juice for your starter, I have used a portion of my juice, added and appropriate amount of DAP, and when the starter is complete, pitch the whole thing into the juice. I usually do starters at 62 deg, the temp I start all ale yeasts at

 

[ColoHox]

Ok, so according to Mr Malty, it looks like I need a 1000ml starter, right? Based on archer's recommendation above, I'd need to add 100g of my DME to my 1000ml of water.

At that gravity, a starter is not essential. Although, this is probably the right time to practice. 100g/1000ml or ~1lb/1gal is the average starter.

We should take a few steps back...what yeast are you using?

Also, FWIW, dry yeasts do not need to be pre-propogated in a starter. You should add some additional nutrients to an apple juice starter, or, some apple juice to a DME starter, for apple wine. Cold crashing your starter before pitching is also helpful, so the composition of your starter wort is less a factor.

 

[banks412]

Well heck, I didn't know you shouldn't do a starter with dry yeast. Also, I used a Danstar BRY-97 American West Coast Ale yeast. Chalk that one up in the 'live and learn' column. I used one of the smaller yeast starter packets from my LHBS on my apple cider/wine. I'm hoping it was ok to dump this mini-beer into my juice. I did the starter according to specifications on NB. I boiled the contents of the packet in a pint of water for 10 minutes. Cooled it till it was cool to the touch and then threw in the yeast. I set that on a stir plate for about an hour and a half and then pitched it onto the juice and sealed it up. I put it in my fermentation chamber set at 67F. I checked it this morning and still no real signs in the airlock. I pushed lightly on the lid and got a few bubbles, so something is definitely going on, but I thought one of the whole points of the starter was a quicker, stronger initial fermentation? I realized too I also forgot my pectic enzyme and to take a gravity reading before pitching. I got WAY too excited with this one...

 

[Onkel_Udo]

"Well heck, I didn't know you shouldn't do a starter with dry yeast."

The appropriate phrase is not "shouldn't" it is "unnecessary". You did not hurt anything.

That being said, want a beer that finishes in record time, do 1000 ML starter for S04 two days before doing a five gallon batch of low gravity beer and pitch it at high krausen. Fermentation DONE in three days. Kegged on the fourth. Tasted on the fifth. Ready and stabilized carbonation on the seventh. Sadly all gone on the eighth day because the neighbors liked it as much as I did.

 

[banks412]

Unnecessary - got it. Glad to know it didn't hurt anything though. Will be doing a 1000mL starter for my 5 gal honey brown I'm planning to brew tomorrow morning.

Hoping that apple cider will kick off soon and start fermenting! I hate bucket primaries - you can't see what the heck is going on!

 

[austinb]

One thing to keep in mind that was not mentioned is that while a starter is unnecessary with dry yeast because they have about double the cell count of liquid yeast you need to make sure you properly rehydrate the yeast first. If you pitch the dry yeast directly into the wort about half of the yeast dies meaning its basically like pitching liquid yeast without a starter and you would be under pitching. Follow the manufacturers directions for rehydrating the yeast in water before pitching and you should have very good viability. The dry yeast is a good pitch rate up to about 1.060 and then you either need to make an appropriate sized starter or pitch at least part of another pack.

 

[banks412]

Well I figured out the mystery with my 1 gal cider - the stupid lid on the bucket is shot, so there was no good seal. So, I'm sure it's most likely ruined. I made it Monday and it's Thursday now that I've noticed it. I decided to rack it to a glass 1 gallon jug and I re-pitched another packet of dry yeast, just reconstitued with some warm water. No sooner than I put the stopper and airlock in, it started bubbling. I checked back on it and found cider in the airlock, so I had to rig a blowoff tube for it. A lot of work for something that probably won't turn out, but hey, it's worth a shot.

 

[ColoHox]

Well I figured out the mystery with my 1 gal cider - the stupid lid on the bucket is shot, so there was no good seal. So, I'm sure it's most likely ruined. I made it Monday and it's Thursday now that I've noticed it. I decided to rack it to a glass 1 gallon jug and I re-pitched another packet of dry yeast, just reconstitued with some warm water. No sooner than I put the stopper and airlock in, it started bubbling. I checked back on it and found cider in the airlock, so I had to rig a blowoff tube for it. A lot of work for something that probably won't turn out, but hey, it's worth a shot.

The lid doesn't have to seal for fermentation to happen. I bet it fermented already and the gas escaped through the unsealed lid. Bubbles in the airlock now are just CO2 you released from solution by transferring it. Have you taken a gravity reading recently?

 

[seckert]

One thing to keep in mind that was not mentioned is that while a starter is unnecessary with dry yeast because they have about double the cell count of liquid yeast you need to make sure you properly rehydrate the yeast first. If you pitch the dry yeast directly into the wort about half of the yeast dies meaning its basically like pitching liquid yeast without a starter and you would be under pitching. Follow the manufacturers directions for rehydrating the yeast in water before pitching and you should have very good viability. The dry yeast is a good pitch rate up to about 1.060 and then you either need to make an appropriate sized starter or pitch at least part of another pack.

I have heard so many different opinions about this...I talked to one of the brewers at a local micro brewery and he said that he has never rehydrated his dry yeast when he makes his homebrew. also that he rarely pitches more than one pack unless it is a super high OG.
I have also talked to brewers that swear by rehydrating or pitching multiple packs.
I have never rehydrated or pitched extra packs myself and never seemed to have a problem with it. I am planning in the future making some starters and/or rehydrating my yeast just to see if it makes a difference. I will probably do this on some of the recipes I have made a bunch so that I can actually tell if there is a difference.

 

[banks412]

I think the cider did ferment as you mentioned, ColoHox. However, I also think it stalled a bit because when I racked it to a sealed container and repitched it took off like crazy. I actually had to put a blowoff tube on it. Granted, it was a little full, but the fermentation was much more vigorous. I'm hoping now simply that it isn't ruined. Time will tell...

 

[Onkel_Udo]

You just roused the yeast. 50% of it was off-gassing absorbed/trapped C02 and the other half was the yeast being put back in suspension to eat more sugar.

Relax, have a beer (preferably a homebrew).