I was going to avoid this, but I'm irritated for other reasons so here we go...
That's OK.
Having taught a number of brand-new brewers how to make starter, I have to call BS on this. If you can boil water, you can make a starter. Its far easier than brewing an extract or mini-mash brew. All you need is a pot & pop bottle; no lab equipment required.
That last point, I have made more than once in this thread.
Of the things new brewers can do to easily, cheaply and with low risk, improve their quality of their beers, proper pitching numbers of highly viable yeast (aka using a starter)
Or using a population that's already viable. It's not YES, or NO, it's what-- under what circumstances-- and why. The HOW fallows from that.
"HI! I've never made beer before, but I'm totally stoked! Do I need a thermometer to tell me when my kettle is at 100c???!!!" ... "No, you need to slow down a little bit, and get a package of dry yeast."
is pretty much top of the list.
(using a starter)
No. Just get fresh yeast otherwise. I'm not saying DON'T do a starter EVER. I'm saying that a starter isn't necessarily-- necessary. It's not the gateway to brewing, nor is the end of the rainbow.
As for your nonsence about asking yeast how their doing & counting them, we don't need to do that because its all been done before.
I know. They even stamp the number of yeast on the package sometimes.
The viability loss rates used by wyeast/white labs are based on their repetitive, real-world measurements of viability loss during normal shipping and handling processes. Any reputable homebrew shop's yeasts will meet or exceed those viability estimates.
Yes. Are you trying to HELP me talk beginners out of a doing starter?
Have you ever had it judged by someone who would know what to look for? Faults caused by underpitching are amoung the most common reported in competitions, and are quite obvious to experience judges/brewers.
Yes.
For those of us with some basic lab equipment, this is a trivial thing to measure.
Could you list the lab equipment necessary so that beginners can jump on amazon and grab some Chinese b-stock?
But again, thanks to the hard work of the yeast wranglers at wyeast, white labs, and elsewhere, we have a very good handle on what typical yeast numbers are after passage through certain sized starters. Yeast aren't magic - they behave in a fairly consistent manner and exhibit predictable behaviours.
Just because two experts cannot agree on one specific value for pitch rates does not mean that underpitching does not exist.
Did I suggest that BIGFOOT doesn't exist? No, I didn't do that either. Yes, you can under pitch. I didn't say it was an impossibility. It's all too common, through mishandling of yeast that were otherwise viable.
We may argue over whether .75M or 1.5M is ideal; no one is going to argue 0.1M is anything other that massive under-pitching.
Nature isn't conscious, so it doesn't think at all about anything. However, as a microbiologist & professor I can say categorically that you are way off base. Microorgansims - yeast or otherwise - behave in very predictable fashions.
I'm not sure which base you think I'm on.
How about a categorical error? Before the rest of your perfect Thanksgiving dinner recipe story, I should point out that your average beginner does NOT have a laboratory. They have a kitchen, and hopefully a measuring cup. The predictability of microorganisms or anything else in nature isn't much help if you have poor accuracy, or are unsure enough of what you are doing.
For example, in my lab when we grow up the pathogens we study we can predict, to within a few percent, the population numbers that will be in our culture at any given time. And all we need for that is media of a known nutrient density & a rough (i.e. within a factor of 10) count of the cells in the source culture. For us timing is critical - we need cells in mid-log phase; a part of their growth that lasts about 1hr over a 12 hour growth period. And we nail it - every time, with information no more accurate than that knowing your yeast viability is somewhere between 10% and 100%.
That's really amazing. How does that clarify things for the beginner?
I have a story about scientists too.
"When I asked him, my microbiologist friend told me, that if I couldn't get an air pump, I should shake the carboy for a few minutes every day because yeast like oxygen!..." Why don't you just ask the guy that monitors a fractionating tower at a refinery how to make whiskey? (actually that guy probably does make whiskey) Whatever. I think I've made my point.
All I can say is thank god you're not a teacher.
Sorry. God intervened against your wishes years ago.
Most brewers - and professional educators -
I don't know most of them, just two or three carloads of them.
would disagree with your pedagogical approach.
Well, I'm not sure you understood my earlier posts. I'm not sure we have the same goal(s). I'm telling beginners not to screw around with starters if they can get reasonably fresh yeast. They have enough to worry about already, and generally worry too much as it is. What's your message? If you have a laboratory it's trivial. If you don't, don't worry! The people that make the yeast know what they are doing-- BUT DO A STARTER!
I don't get it. I don't get
yeast fetishism. Some one else can accuse me of not caring about pitching rates AT ALL, now. Maybe if I explain it again it will finally sink in that the exact opposite is the case.
--Adam Selene