Yeast Health

[springinloose1]

Specifically as far as yeast health goes, is there any explicit advantages doing starters all grain instead of using DME?

I’ve found so much info, yes people are doing it, but nothing on actual yeast health. Is that because DME is basically dehydrated wort and there is no measureable benefit?

I started making a starter the day of brew day using the last runnings in the mash and if gravity is too low by then, I’ll open the kettle and collect the volume I need at the gravity I want. I’ve found doing this not only saves time and money by not using DME for a starter, but since the starter obviously isn’t ready after the boil is done 60-90 minutes later, I’m saving water on the amount used in the plate chiller to cool the wort as well. So instead of cooling to 60-70 degrees, depending on if I’m doing an ale or lager, I’m leaving it a little on the warm side, 80-90 degrees, and since it’s going to sit with the air lock for another 24-48 hours before pitching while the starter is twirling, it’ll have time to cool to temp. Plus my thought is, when it’s time to do a more delicate beer like a Pils, since the wort is exactly the same, I can, although I don't, dump the whole starter instead of decanting.

I know I’m certainly not the first person that’s used the mash runnings and instead of sitting around watching water boil waiting on the next hop addition, I’m making and cooling a starter. In my mind, what does it matter if I have a starter sitting around going a couple days before brew day or after, but I know if I do it the day of brew day I’m safe knowing I'll have wort to pitch to. I’ve never had it happen to me, but I’ve heard where guys do the starter and life gets in the way and they can’t brew and they’re scrambling to store the yeast.

Penny for your thoughts.
Cheers

 

[Yooper]

Short answer is no- the DME or LME is about the same to yeast as an AG version. You just want to make sure the starter is 1.035-1.040 or so for the best yeast health.

HOWEVER, since fresh wort can go bad very quickly, I'd bring the starter to a boil before cooling and freezing it for later use. Or, bring it to a boil to kill the lactobacillus inherent in it, and then chill and use for the starter.

Since a starter needs 24-48 hours for the yeast to grow well, and you don't want unpitched wort sitting around for very long, I'd take the runnings you need, boil them to sanitize, then freeze for the next batch.

 

[springinloose1]

I'd bring the starter to a boil before cooling

Yep, that's exactly what I do in between hop additions.

freeze for the next batch

Doing it this way is the freshest way possible though and I don't have jars of wort hanging out in the freezer. I lauter, collect starter runnings, boil, cool, pitch, put on stir plate, two days later pitch in fermenter.

 

[Yooper]

Yep, that's exactly what I do in between hop additions.


Doing it this way is the freshest way possible though and I don't have jars of wort hanging out in the freezer. I lauter, collect starter runnings, boil, cool, pitch, put on stir plate, two days later pitch in fermenter.

I'm just concerned about pitching two days later, but if you don't have any issues or qualms with it and it works for you then it's good.

 

[springinloose1]

I'm just concerned about pitching two days later, but if you don't have any issues or qualms with it and it works for you then it's good.

I gotcha, you're talking about the two days it takes for the batch, not the starter. Interesting. Well, I guess let me ask, it's not like yeast provides any preservative properties correct? So it shouldn't matter, right?

 

[flars]

I gotcha, you're talking about the two days it takes for the batch, not the starter. Interesting. Well, I guess let me ask, it's not like yeast provides any preservative properties correct? So it shouldn't matter, right?

Yeast doesn't have any preservative qualities but the alcohol the yeast produces can inhibit the growth of bacteria. Waiting two days to pitch means the wort will be at bacteria growth temperature for two and a half to three days before the yeast produces sufficient alcohol to begin inhibiting bacteria growth.

A lot of brewers use no chill techniques where the ground water is too hot to chill the wort. It can be successful. Depends upon how much risk are you willing to take?

 

[corax]

I think of it more as competition for limited resources than inhibition. The advantage you have with a big early pitch is that there will be billions of your yeast cells consuming all available sugars, while the contaminating wild yeast and bacteria number in the tens or hundreds of cells. Your yeast wins hands down: the resources are used up before the bad guys really even get started. Wait a couple of days, though, you give the contaminating cells time to catch up with your starter; your yeast could be competing with millions or even billions of the bad guys, and the issue is in doubt.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I agree with all the previous comments about potential dangers of letting warm wort sit for too long without a strong pitch of yeast. Some dangerous spoilage organisms (like the stuff causing botulism) can survive the boil and grow without yeast competition. I'd hate to find that out the hard way.

The guys over at brulosophy experimented with a "vitality starter", which amounts to a 500mL starter aerated for only 4 hours. Sounds like something that might interest you.

 

[springinloose1]

Man, you guys have given me some good info to think about. Although I've been practicing this technique on, I think, 4 or so 10 gallon batches with success, that risk factor would really stink if it caught up with me.
And the point will be taken since DME is relatively inexpensive vs. an infected brew.

I do have one more quick question on the bacteria side of things... When I'm done with the boil, it's chilled with a plate chiller, tossed into the fermenter, and an air lock installed all within, I'd say, a 10-15 minute timeframe. It's not until I'm ready to pitch the yeast that I aerate with pure o2 for a few minutes and the air lock or blow off tube reinstalled.

So with that being the case, even if it's on the hotter side, where would the bacteria and other bad guys come from if they're not exposed to the atmosphere? I'm using glass carboys.

 

[corax]

Outside of laboratory conditions, it's really, really difficult to be completely sterile. I've never heard of a homebrewer even attempting it, let alone achieving it. Most of us do our best to maximize sanitation, but this falls well short of sterile technique.

I don't know exactly how you're doing your transfer, but if your wort is exposed to the atmosphere for even a fraction of a second it's enough time for an infecting cell or two to get in. In that perfect growing environment, and given no competition, those one or two cells are only 20 doublings away from one or two million cells -- which they can easily achieve in a day or two.

 

[springinloose1]

Thanks corax! Makes sense.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Outside of laboratory conditions, it's really, really difficult to be completely sterile. I've never heard of a homebrewer even attempting it, let alone achieving it. Most of us do our best to maximize sanitation, but this falls well short of sterile technique.

I don't know exactly how you're doing your transfer, but if your wort is exposed to the atmosphere for even a fraction of a second it's enough time for an infecting cell or two to get in. In that perfect growing environment, and given no competition, those one or two cells are only 20 doublings away from one or two million cells -- which they can easily achieve in a day or two.

It's absolutely right to have that attitude - but at the same time it has to be pointed out that the probability of it happening is not that great if you know what you're doing. I've found that in general I get a similar rate of infection (ie not high) wrangling yeast on my kitchen table as I did when I was in a lab with laminar flow hoods etc. All I use is one of those little handheld blowtorches and a stovetop pressure cooker with a slightly dodgy seal, and I eg can streak plates that last for months without any nasties growing on them.

The one thing I've found is that when I pour plates I get the odd batch that get infected pretty quickly, but I don't take any real precautions when pouring them and there's some simple things I could do to reduce the risk significantly.

But part of having good technique is to assume that the bad guys are out to get you, and to take steps to ensure that they don't!