Yeast for Ice Cider

[garhof]

I just made up a batch of hard cider, 3 gal worth with a packet of nottingham yeast. I went away for the weekend and it spent 3 days at a temp of about 75 to 78 degrees fermenting. I'm hoping it isnt going to be ruined, next time i'll make sure to check my air is on.

One think I've been considering making is an ice cider. I'm going to rack this cider off the carboy here in a few days to a 3 gal carboy, and let it set a week.

Can I put the ice cider must on the secondary yeast cake? or have I already ruined the yeast from the temp being to high during primary? I've read about yeast not producing desired results, and I'm not sure if its just the yeasts output, or undesired mutation that results in off flavors.

Thanks!

 

[WVMJ]

I dont think they mutated too much, make sure to add some nutrients to help them. Is Notingham a good choice for an ice cider which usually has a much higher OG than just regular cider? WVMJ

 

[garhof]

On the correct yeast, I'm not sure. I'm hoping to get a 9 to 12% ABv, and from what I've read thats what nottingham tops out at. I added nutrient and entergizer to the yeast while it was on the cider already. I'll plan on adding it if i put the ice cider must on it.

A few other questions though.....

I thought that I could put any yeast in a must and it would ferment as much as it could. am i wrong? with a gravity has high as i need to start will it choke the yeast out with to much sugar to process?

Thanks!

 

[WVMJ]

I have not used Noti yet, got a pack for some cider this weekend. When talking Ice Wines people usually mean a higher starting gravity and a cooler ferment with a wine yeast that can tolerate the higher SG and conditions. Have not really read of people using a beer yeast to make an ice wine but you might be the first to pull it off Havent made an ice cider yet either but when we do probably going to use a white wine yeast vs a beer yeast. WVMJ

 

[garhof]

Thanks for the info. I was just thinking about using it because it was in there, and because from what I was thinking Nottingham was used alot for cider, and from what I understand Ice wine is a sweeter, "thicker" tasting cider. Correct me if I'm wrong.

But I dont want to waste 3 gal of high brix juice on an experiment

Thanks again!

 

[WVMJ]

havent done it yet so can only offer opinions from reading about it but it seems to me ice cider is much more like wine than cider in terms of fermentation management, nutrients, yeasts etc, Notti may be fine yeast for it but maybe not, something like Ec1118, QA23, D47 along those lines might be better WVMJ

 

[podz]

Thanks for the info. I was just thinking about using it because it was in there, and because from what I was thinking Nottingham was used alot for cider, and from what I understand Ice wine is a sweeter, "thicker" tasting cider. Correct me if I'm wrong.

But I dont want to waste 3 gal of high brix juice on an experiment

Thanks again!

Ice wine (eiswein) is where the grapes are left to endure a hard freeze on the vines before picking and pressing, resulting in a higher sugar content than normal. This technique is typically used in the Rhein-Mosel area of Germany - Koblenz, Mainz, etc. Due to increased sugar, you either end up with increased sweetness (eiswein) or increased alcohol depending on fermentation technique and yeast.

IIRC, nottingham is barely strong enough to produce a normal strength white wine (11-12% ABV) so it will probably leave all sugar above 1.090 alone. If you want sweet, then shoot for about 20-30 points above that.

Additionally, eiswein contains only grapes. The german word for cider is "apfelwein" - there is no linguistic distinction between cider and apple wine because there is no practical difference.

The problem with fermenting in too warm temps is not yeast mutation, it's the production of fusel alcohols (the stuff that gives you a throbbing headache the next day). Yeast mutation requires multi-generational growth; doesn't happen during the course of a single fermentation. Typically, you can ferment on top of the same yeast cake at least four times before you need to start worrying about noticeable mutation.

 

[garhof]

Sorry, I typed in ice wine instead of ice cider there.

Good to know on the yeast. I'm going to have to read up more on the fusel alcohols. I was just worried that the yeast would mutate as well as producing undesired things. I may have to toss out my ciders that fermented up there in the 75's or make sure that I stop myself on one. I might skip this yeast for the ice cider and just try a cooler ferment to try again on the apple juice.

I was going to use this yeast because of this:

http://cjoliprsf.awardspace.biz/Documents/IceCider_pptWeb.pdf

I'm not always in town and I dont have the coolest spot till winter to ferment so I was hoping to have the yeast stop ferment for me, instead of having to catch it in the right spots with rackings and sorbates/sulfites.

Thanks!

 

[hitthewall79]

If you are talking about making something like applejack, I prefer whhitelabs american whisky yeast, as for your cider, I'd be almost against freezing it to make applejack, because what this process does is it concentrates flavors. So if you have minor imperfections, they become much larger


Colorblind brewing

Flavor beats color every time

 

[podz]

Good to know on the yeast. I'm going to have to read up more on the fusel alcohols. I was just worried that the yeast would mutate as well as producing undesired things. I may have to toss out my ciders that fermented up there in the 75's or make sure that I stop myself on one. I might skip this yeast for the ice cider and just try a cooler ferment to try again on the apple juice.

While fusel alcohols do not "dissipate", as in disappear on their own independently from ethanol, they can be somewhat reabsorbed by the yeast during secondary fermentation (this secondary does not mean racking, it means to let the cider stay in the same carboy on top of the same yeast for many months). If you have produced a lot of fusels, it means that this cider is headache material when young.

Next point is that if you have produced more fusels than the yeast is able to reabsorb, then you will still be left with some fusels even after a long secondary fermentation. Not really bad cider, just flawed...

Finally, if you want to really look into reducing fusels then you'll want to look into using lager yeast instead. Something with a relatively high alcohol tolerance like 885 Zurich. Keep the temps low and then you can jack and drink it young.

 

[garhof]

Cool. Thanks for the info Guys!

 

[MindenMan]

I have been using Pasteur Red Yeast the past few batches making cider. Please do not confuse Pasteur Red with Pasteur Champagne Yeast, as they are very different animals. This yeast is happy from 64-86*F. I ferment at room temperature and have had no fusels or other off flavors in any of my P/R batches. My ciders are in the 12% range, and after freeze concentrating, the alcohol is warm but never "hot". After aging only two months, there is a significant smoothness and the flavor profile is really very fruity. I am using store bought cider and frozen concentrate, as we got very few apples this year. I am hoping for apples next year on not only our tree, but on our neighbors fruit trees too. Most of our neighbors don't harvest their fruit, and I am not too proud to ask to not only pick the trees, but pick up the scrumpy from the many different varieties if that is all they will let us have.