Wyeast 3711 French Saison
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Just make sure your conversion is complete using an iodine test if you can. I'm sure at 90 min it will be but it never hurts to check. Half the time I forget to check. The frementation should take about 10-12 days probably. I left mine in the primary fermentor for 5 days past active fermentation and then transferred it into a secondary to make room for another beer in my 10gal primary. Currently I'm waiting on more belgian cork cages and its sitting in my garage dropping yeast (probably all done) in the 30-40F temps. I am looking at bottling this up this coming weekend.
Your plan all in all makes perfect sense. With an exception to some hops and some grain quantities we have a very similar recipe.
Your plan all in all makes perfect sense. With an exception to some hops and some grain quantities we have a very similar recipe.
discgolfin
Well-Known Member
first time using this yeast, I mashed 145 for 90. to skip the sugar adddition.
Chugging away after 8 hrs. Im going to hold at 68 for the first 2 days than slowly raise it to 80 be the end of the week.
Chugging away after 8 hrs. Im going to hold at 68 for the first 2 days than slowly raise it to 80 be the end of the week.
Just wanted to let you know that Wyeast lists the temp up to 75F. This is not the dupont strain in any way. I'm sure you can run high with it but you don't need to at all. The reason for running the dupont strain so high is because otherwise it would take fermentation forever to complete. .
So you can keep it mid to high sixties and fully attenuate?
this yeast will always fully attenuate... I've never had it go above 1.002... I would bump it to 70's toward the end of of fermentation, getting the full flavor of the yeast. the thing about this yeast is is tastes great at such low attenuation, so don't be afraid to let it go dry. I always mash high, and I believe that brings out the best in the yeast. Keep it in the bottle for 6 months though. It gets really good...
bigbeergeek
Well-Known Member
Interesting. This brewer fermented the 3711 with an ambient temperature of 61 and says the yeast lost all of its character, describing the resulting beer as "British" tasting...
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/wyeast-3711-my-saison-became-british-236848/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/wyeast-3711-my-saison-became-british-236848/
61 is really low, I believe. even for a non-belgian yeast...I would err on the higher side for this yeast, I've never had fusels or anything...
I'm actually testing temps for this yeast. I just made 2 extract saison batches, one that I am leaving at ambient 72 degree temp to see what comes out of just letting it go, (pitched at 63), and another where I control temps for the first 4 days, pitching at 65 and controlling it's growth to 73 over the week. Trying to get a better handle on this yeast, and where the flavors shine through the most.
I'm actually testing temps for this yeast. I just made 2 extract saison batches, one that I am leaving at ambient 72 degree temp to see what comes out of just letting it go, (pitched at 63), and another where I control temps for the first 4 days, pitching at 65 and controlling it's growth to 73 over the week. Trying to get a better handle on this yeast, and where the flavors shine through the most.
I feel pretty good about brwing my Saison. Right now I am problem solviong through the higher fermentation temps and how I will get that done. I am ither going to:
1. Wrap in towels and place in a warm room,
2. Buy a heating pad to set the fermenter on or,
3. Buy one of those fancy ferm wraps.
I think I will brew this one toward the end of April. I had a beer this winter wrapped in a towel that I accidentally got up to the low 80's but there seems to be a lot less control with this method.
1. Wrap in towels and place in a warm room,
2. Buy a heating pad to set the fermenter on or,
3. Buy one of those fancy ferm wraps.
I think I will brew this one toward the end of April. I had a beer this winter wrapped in a towel that I accidentally got up to the low 80's but there seems to be a lot less control with this method.
I started mine at 65 and brought it up to 75 slowly over a 5-7 days. Finished at 1.004 and tastes great. I did a 10gal batch (unspiced) and split between Belgian and French Strains, the Belgian I started at 75 and brought up to 85, finished at 1.008 and is good, but I liked the French better.
bigbeergeek
Well-Known Member
61 was his ambient temp. He had no way to measure the fermenting beer's temp. It's safe to assume it was 5+ degrees warmer than the ambient for the first 4 or 5 days of fermentation, which would have put it within range of the yeast (65-77).
bigbeergeek
Well-Known Member
Not to nitpick, but wyeast lists this one from 65 to 77.
http://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=199
That's a big range... I'm trying to figure out what temps give it the best "saison" character.. What do you guys think?
Oh, and JLW, I would just get a brew belt, they are cheap and would work well for this purpose.
Oh, and JLW, I would just get a brew belt, they are cheap and would work well for this purpose.
I think I will just get the brew belt. My ambient temp in that part of the house during the day is normally around 70-75 maybe hotter in that room. The room has two sunlights and gets pretty warm inthe summer.
http://www.marineland.com/sites/Marineland/products/productdetail.aspx?id=2054&cid=1214&mid=3226
You can get one of those in 100w rating and a 15gal party bucket. That gives you great control over the temp. Going that route takes up more space but I've got good results using for heating. In the winter it would even conceivably give me the ability to lager in the garage with the use of a temp controller.
You can get one of those in 100w rating and a 15gal party bucket. That gives you great control over the temp. Going that route takes up more space but I've got good results using for heating. In the winter it would even conceivably give me the ability to lager in the garage with the use of a temp controller.
I just got my 14 gallon conical last week. Will a brew belt work on that?
methodbeer
Member
We almost exclusively use 3711, even for Belgians. We've found that starting at 66 and boosting the temp to 70 after 2 days brings out the most saison aromas and flavors. With these strains, most of the alcohol will be produced in the first day or two--giving clean background for the bump up to produce the necessary esters to fit the style. You could even chill to 66 and just let go (up to 80 even)--that's what some of the monks and the guy at Jolly Pumpkin do.
3711 is one of the hardest working strains I've seen. We almost always get every beer to finish with 1.005 gravity! In fact, we tried a Belgian, had a stuck fermentation, and pitched the French on top. It fermented all the way through.
Our Rye Saison, using 3711, took 3rd in a regional competition last year with a score of 42 (got beat out by a 44 and 45). It was fantastic!
3711 is one of the hardest working strains I've seen. We almost always get every beer to finish with 1.005 gravity! In fact, we tried a Belgian, had a stuck fermentation, and pitched the French on top. It fermented all the way through.
Our Rye Saison, using 3711, took 3rd in a regional competition last year with a score of 42 (got beat out by a 44 and 45). It was fantastic!
So are 3711 beers super dry then? I've been drinking Dupont saison's lately and they are really dry. Does the 3711 yeast produce a similar flavor profile?
discgolfin
Well-Known Member
They are very dry, same as dupont. But they do not need added sugar, or high temps to achieve this. I have a saison going now..held temps below 70 first 4 days, now have it rising to 80..just to get some fruity esters.
methodbeer
Member
Agreed. Similar to Dupont and others in that style. I had a La Merle the other day, it was dry too. Of course, this fits the style though--with the lack of residual sweetness.
We didn't add extra sugar to our Rye and it was certainly crisp and dry. Most do turn out dry, especially if you mash for attenuation (146 deg - 149 deg). The trick with the yeast is to start low (mid 60s) and let it rise to 70+.
We didn't add extra sugar to our Rye and it was certainly crisp and dry. Most do turn out dry, especially if you mash for attenuation (146 deg - 149 deg). The trick with the yeast is to start low (mid 60s) and let it rise to 70+.
Nevermind.. should have read the thread 
Just read through the whole thread and I agree 3711 is a beast. I started a Saison with OG of 1044 last Saturday and in 5 days my gravity was 1004, I had to take 2 readings because I was so stunned.
I have a question about primary conditioning temperature, currently the beer is sitting in a room with ambient 72F, if I'm going to do a month long primary and no secondary should I leave it in this room for the month or move it to my normal fermentation room which is around ambient 62F at some point?
I have a question about primary conditioning temperature, currently the beer is sitting in a room with ambient 72F, if I'm going to do a month long primary and no secondary should I leave it in this room for the month or move it to my normal fermentation room which is around ambient 62F at some point?
methodbeer
Member
We usually do a secondary with a fermentation fridge, so I wouldn't know too much about the effect at that ambient temp. My assumption would be that it'd be fine, since most of the alcohol has been produced--in the first 48 hours (at least with Belgian and Franco strains).
From what I've read though, most monks and Belgian brewers will transfer to a long secondary at a much cooler temp (even read low 50s). My concern with this is that the yeast would drop out of suspension, so bottling would be a nightmare unless you re-pitch as they do. We don't re-pitch, so we usually drop our secondary to mid 60's again. In the case of the 3711, it's a Biere de Garde yeast. Keeping with tradition, you should cellar while it ages. So, I would move it to 62 or 64 if I was you. But, ambient temp won't hurt it IMO.
That's the beauty of Belgians and Farmhouse styles: do whatever suits you and if it tastes good then it's "in-style"!
From what I've read though, most monks and Belgian brewers will transfer to a long secondary at a much cooler temp (even read low 50s). My concern with this is that the yeast would drop out of suspension, so bottling would be a nightmare unless you re-pitch as they do. We don't re-pitch, so we usually drop our secondary to mid 60's again. In the case of the 3711, it's a Biere de Garde yeast. Keeping with tradition, you should cellar while it ages. So, I would move it to 62 or 64 if I was you. But, ambient temp won't hurt it IMO.
That's the beauty of Belgians and Farmhouse styles: do whatever suits you and if it tastes good then it's "in-style"!
methodbeer
Member
Our first time brewing with 3711, we did a double-take too! Did you mash low? 150? or high 140s?
JFryauff
Member
My 3711 pitched Saison seems to be a little more stubborn than most I've read about in this thread.
I mashed high, and had a OG of 1.070, a week later I am only down to 1.030.
I aerated the wort for at least two minutes prior to pitching (no additional sugars), and the starter seemed pretty happy.
Got great fermentation going after just 8 hours, then by day three it was slowed...still going, but slowed.
My basement temp has been a little low, 66-68 degrees, so I started ramping up the temp slowly after 5 days. I'm trying to sit it somewhere now at 78-80, as it goes into week two.
I know I am being impatient, and I am sure it will be fine...but after reading all these "50-60 point drops after 5 days" accounts, it was a bit disappointing.
I mashed high, and had a OG of 1.070, a week later I am only down to 1.030.
I aerated the wort for at least two minutes prior to pitching (no additional sugars), and the starter seemed pretty happy.
Got great fermentation going after just 8 hours, then by day three it was slowed...still going, but slowed.
My basement temp has been a little low, 66-68 degrees, so I started ramping up the temp slowly after 5 days. I'm trying to sit it somewhere now at 78-80, as it goes into week two.
I know I am being impatient, and I am sure it will be fine...but after reading all these "50-60 point drops after 5 days" accounts, it was a bit disappointing.
don't worry, my experience with this yeast is actually slow and steady. 66-68 may be a little cold, but I think you are fine, unless the yeast wasn't very viable. (and you said it was fine so...)
I would leave it at 75 for two weeks, and check again.
I would leave it at 75 for two weeks, and check again.
methodbeer
Member
Jboggeye and JFryauff, I think the reason your 3711 has to work slow and steady is because you're mashing way too high. 154+ is stout temperatures! Saisons are light body, 152- and are best drier--mashing below 150. The yeast WILL eat everything even at high temps (it's a workhorse), that's how it saved the day for our one stuck fermentation. We mashed too high and our sugar chains were too big for the Belgian strain to digest. We re-pitched with the French fermented for 4 weeks at 70 to break all the chains down to 1.005. If you mash appropriately, it'll take less than 5 days to attenuate. We could have left the beer longer, but who needs it drier than 1.005?!
Randy Mosher is the only I've ever read who said mash high for residual sugars. But, I've never had a farmhouse with residual sugars. The book Farmhouse Ales, suggests low temperatures around 148. And, the book Brew Like a Monk talks about creating a digestible beer with mash temps below 150. There's many other examples out there too, especially if you Google it.
Randy Mosher is the only I've ever read who said mash high for residual sugars. But, I've never had a farmhouse with residual sugars. The book Farmhouse Ales, suggests low temperatures around 148. And, the book Brew Like a Monk talks about creating a digestible beer with mash temps below 150. There's many other examples out there too, especially if you Google it.
smizak
Well-Known Member
Just brewed my second saison on Saturday using 3711 as a secondary strain. I love 3724, but I'm not patient enough/too lazy to baby it for a month, so I pitch a big starter of 3724 and just a splash of 3711 out of the smack pack. Sure enough, the 3724 started in six hours, ripped holy hell for about 14 hrs, then gave up the ghost. The 3711 is slowly fizzing away right now. I started bumping up the temp a degree a day, I'll let it finish at 75F. This yeast is a great resource, if not just for restarting stuck ferments or drying out beers.
JFryauff
Member
jboggeye/methodbeer thanks for the info...
I knew the mash temps were an issue when I saw the O.G., lesson learned.
I knew the mash temps were an issue when I saw the O.G., lesson learned.
In your opinion, do you think this yeast will eventually take care of the sugar strains, or should I re-pitch. I'm hoping that time and the warmer temps will allow the yeast to slowly work away.
methodbeer
Member
It's hard to say since there's a lot of factors. But, yeah, I have faith in the 3711. Our screwed up batch (mash too high, stuck sparge, etc) was still going even after the 4 weeks. It will work, but you'll have to be patient. For us, it finally hit the TG, but it wasn't as good as our first batch (same recipe).
The only issue is that you run into off flavors (diacetyl is one) with the number of yeast generations. This is why under-pitching is such an issue. If there's not enough yeast to take on the job, then they let out a ton of diacetyl.
My experience is that it will be fine. At least give it a few days and take another reading. I can't imagine Mash Temps creating a stuck fermentation with this yeast.
Methodbeer, the reason we've been mashing high is because we seem to get overatenuated beers. although a 1.001 saison is very good, I prefer them at 1.004-1.005. (keep in mind that I still can't seem to get the yeast to stop eating these dextrins anyway, even mashing high)
I know they aren't "supposed" to have residual sweetness, but that extra .002 makes it perfect IMO. My saisons are still quite dry and highly carbonated
Also, I forgot to mention that most of my saisons are low OG, and mashing high really helps the beer seem bigger.
Methodbeer, the reason we've been mashing high is because we seem to get overatenuated beers. although a 1.001 saison is very good, I prefer them at 1.004-1.005. (keep in mind that I still can't seem to get the yeast to stop eating these dextrins anyway, even mashing high)
I know they aren't "supposed" to have residual sweetness, but that extra .002 makes it perfect IMO. My saisons are still quite dry and highly carbonated
Also, I forgot to mention that most of my saisons are low OG, and mashing high really helps the beer seem bigger.
OP
OP
B-Dub
Well-Known Member
methodbeer
Member
Jboggeye, well that seems like a smart reason to mash high! If they're eating all the complex sugars still, then it wouldn't have too much residual anyway. We never had issue with it continuing too long. I see your point too on the low OG. Ours are usually above 1.055--which could be a factor too.
B-Dub, that looks like a cool post. I'll check it out today. Thanks!
B-Dub, that looks like a cool post. I'll check it out today. Thanks!
Here's what I'm planning on brewing tomorrow to break in my new brewery. Let me know what you think. I winged it after reading a description in Phil Markowski's Farmhouse Ales.
Recipe: L'Ambree D'Esquelbecq
Brewer: Joe Tylicki
Asst Brewer: Dylan and Darren
Style: Saison
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)
Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 11.00 gal
Boil Size: 12.59 gal
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 5.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 28.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes
Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
17.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 77.78 %
5.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 22.22 %
1.25 oz Northern Brewer [9.80 %] (60 min) Hops 19.4 IBU
1.50 oz Saaz [5.50 %] (20 min) Hops 7.9 IBU
1.00 oz Saaz [5.50 %] (2 min) Hops 0.7 IBU
0.55 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
2.20 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) [4 QT Starter]
Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 22.50 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 28.13 qt of water at 169.9 F 154.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 15.75 qt of water at 198.3 F 168.0 F
Notes:
------
Lager for two weeks at 33 deg
Recipe: L'Ambree D'Esquelbecq
Brewer: Joe Tylicki
Asst Brewer: Dylan and Darren
Style: Saison
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)
Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 11.00 gal
Boil Size: 12.59 gal
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 5.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 28.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes
Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
17.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 77.78 %
5.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 22.22 %
1.25 oz Northern Brewer [9.80 %] (60 min) Hops 19.4 IBU
1.50 oz Saaz [5.50 %] (20 min) Hops 7.9 IBU
1.00 oz Saaz [5.50 %] (2 min) Hops 0.7 IBU
0.55 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
2.20 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) [4 QT Starter]
Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 22.50 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 28.13 qt of water at 169.9 F 154.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 15.75 qt of water at 198.3 F 168.0 F
Notes:
------
Lager for two weeks at 33 deg
Looks great to me. I made the mistake of adding sugar last time I used this yeast. I think you're on the right path here.
