Wyeast 3711 French Saison

[Bensiff]

I for one welcome our new French overlords. What a delicious world it will be.

And possibly smellier

I'm going to try doing a quad that uses around 25% 3711 and see if I can slow it down some while still getting a well attenuated brew.

 

[runs4beer]

And possibly smellier

My wife's joke was: are they sure it's french yeast; doesn't surrender or go on strike.

 

[ChshreCat]

And possibly smellier

And hairier.

 

[Cogent]

Looking forward to compare the Wyeast 3711 and the White Labs Saison II in the coming weeks. I'll post the stats in due time.

 

[bigbeergeek]

I'm brewing up a modest gravity saison (1.045) with 3711 this upcoming week. I plan on fermenting it at room temperature (75*F) and doing nothing to hold back the fermentation (no water bath, etc). Anyone ferment this thing that warm? Should I be concerned with solventy character at those temperatures? I'm afraid the wife might be a little pissed when she sees 3 fermentors in 3 water baths around the house (I'm brewing up 10 gallons of wit the same morning). Should I face he wrath to keep the temps in check, or will I get good saison character at 80 degrees?

 

[JLW]

My saison is one week bottle conditioned. I'm dying to try one.

 

[JaimeTheLimey]

I'm brewing up a modest gravity saison (1.045) with 3711 this upcoming week. I plan on fermenting it at room temperature (75*F) and doing nothing to hold back the fermentation (no water bath, etc)....

It will ferment fast and finish really low at that temp. (3711 finishes low even with cooler temps). Fermenting higher will definitely produce a lot more sulfur character and can smell pretty bad during fermentation. It will clean up with some conditioning.

 

[bigbeergeek]

It will ferment fast and finish really low at that temp. (3711 finishes low even with cooler temps). Fermenting higher will definitely produce a lot more sulfur character and can smell pretty bad during fermentation. It will clean up with some conditioning.

Seems like this yeast ferments fast and low at any temperature. I want bone dry, but I don't want solventy/hot alcohol or a month in the keg before it tastes good. I'm starting to lean toward taking the wrath for a water bath with frozen water bottles for the first five days...

 

[SaccharoVices]

Another lovely brew day, decided to try 3711 after all of the raves here-

10# Moravian Pils Floor Malt
.5# Acidulated Malt
.5# Belgian 17 degree pale

1oz Homegrown Sterling 60 minutes
.5oz Homegrown Saaz 30 minutes
.35oz Homegrown Saaz 10 minutes

1T yeast nutrient
.25t Super Irish Moss (Carageenan)

3.5 gallons strike water @165
mashed in @ 148, held 60 minutes
vorlaufed, added direct heat to raise mash to 154 30 minutes

sparged w/5 gallons @170

collected a bit over 7 gallons wort, boiled a total of 100 minutes

wort developed a nice toasty color

chilled, pitched 1.25l starter of vigorous 3711, 5.5 gallons in fermenter with blowoff tube

in ferm fridge @68F, will probably get up to low seventies from metabolic action

OG is 1.054, hope this one is a nice quencher for the fall


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/album.php?albumid=926

 

[Jboggeye]

A lot of people are asking what temps to ferment at. My experiments (will do more) about temps are that the lower temps produce less fruit and more phenolics. above 72ish, and you get more fruit.
that said, even though both beers are good and still very similar (split batch with different temps) the one at 65 to 70 is still alt better. Fruit is still there, but more refined, and mixes well.
Controlled temps can produce award winning beer for this yeast, while uncontrolled and hotter temps can produce good beer, but not as good...

As many of us, I was hoping that this yeast could be a "let it go" yeast, but it's much better if controlled...

 

[Jboggeye]

To add to that, yes the yeast will go faster at warmer temps. BUT, it won't attenuate more than cooler and ramp up at end...

 

[JaimeTheLimey]

Seems like this yeast ferments fast and low at any temperature. I want bone dry, but I don't want solventy/hot alcohol or a month in the keg before it tastes good. I'm starting to lean toward taking the wrath for a water bath with frozen water bottles for the first five days...

Let if fly. I've done a version with an SG of 1.060 down to 1.004 without any alcohol (rocket fuel I call it) flavors. The alcohol warmth does creep on you though.

 

[tesilential]

I brewed a low O.G. (1.039) wort last week and after 2 days I'm at 1.022. Started at 62*, went up to 68* after 24 hours and now at 70*. The sample had good flavors and saison characteristics but of course was semi sweet with the high gravity. Should I just go up a degree or two a day or pull it out now and let it get to 78* in a day.

Another thing is my thermo was broken when I mashed. I found out later it won't read below 66*, reads like 95 at 78*, yet it reads 212*f at boiling. Hoping it was reading 155 accurately or I coulda mashed above 165*! This will be a good test for the French saison yeast.

 

[indigi]

Brewed up a batch today, 1.054 before sugar additions. I had heard rumors of this strain's voraciousness, but sadly when I mashed at 149* (what I usually do for saisons) I didn't take that into account. Looking forward to a delicious 0.992 FG saison, I guess!

Used an ounce of Strisselspalt at 15 and 5 and I'll probably dry hop with it as well. Seems only right that I'm using French hops with French pilsner malt and a French saison strain. I'm planning to ferment it at 66-67* for the first three days then let it ramp up one or two degrees per day to 74-75*.

 

[bigbeergeek]

Jboggeye, thanks for the good info -- pretty much what I assumed, and the exact advice I was looking for!

 

[BrewNow]

I've just kegged my 1st 3711 batch last week and will re-use for #2 batch on Sunday (July 3rd). My sugar additions are typically 10-15 percent. Does anyone know if the vigor of the yeast drops after multiple generations especially using 10-15% simple sugars?

 

[tesilential]

My experience with this yeast during the past few days:

I pitched a smack pack into a 5 gal 1.04 wort on at 12:00am 6/23. My fermenting freezer had cold kegs in it, so after 24 hours I realized my wort was at 52*f! I took it out and let it warm up to 62-64* and I saw the first signs of action within a day. I let it rise up to 70*f by the end of the second day. I took a reading after two and half days and was at 1.022 and smelled pretty great. I wanted more yeast character so I let the yeast rise up to 73* by the end of the third day. That night I pulled it out and let it reach room temperature, 78*f. It stopped bubbling by the end of the fourth day and I'm sure its done. I had a simple wort so the yeast was actually slower than I expected, but kept going steady. I'm going to take a sample in 2 days and then probably let it sit at room temp another week to condition. After that I'll just keg it and through it in the keezer.

I'm gonna save the yeast and brew either a dark saison or a higher gravity saison in a month or so.

 

[Jboggeye]

if you are set up to bottle, I find that this yeast increases complexity over time. I just had one of my 2 year old saisons last night and it was fantastic.
If you know someone who can lend a corker, and you can carbonate to 4-5 volumes of Co2, I would try to do that.
kegging this beer just doesn't do as well...

 

[runs4beer]

I've just kegged my 1st 3711 batch last week and will re-use for #2 batch on Sunday (July 3rd). My sugar additions are typically 10-15 percent. Does anyone know if the vigor of the yeast drops after multiple generations especially using 10-15% simple sugars?

My experience is it does not; if the fermentation regiment is consistent it will drop the gravity faster and further with each generation but I found that the classic saison flavors (spic/citrus) may decrease, my guess is the acclimated yeast isn't as stressed and kick off less esters. I believe I've countered this by consistently and increasingly under pitch. After the 3ed generation try under pitching by 20 to 30%. But as far as simple sugar vs. maltose; 3711 doesn't seem to discriminate.

 

[petep1980]

Perfect timing, I got this thing into my witbier after 3944 took it to 1.012. Let's finish the job 3711!!!

 

[JLW]

My saison has been in bottles for two weeks. I am going to pop a coule in the fridge tonight for weekend sampling.

 

[BigRob]

The yeast definitely seems to acclimate, I have a somewhat disappointing saison at the moment, it's definitely drinkable, but the saison flavours are so faint theyre hard to detect, and of course I used little flavour/aroma hops to give the yeast the spotlight, so it's kind of "blah'.

I pitched according to MrMalty for the batch, so the yeast probably had little stress. This is 4th gen yeast from batches that never exceeded 1.05 OG, I might give this 5th gen a try in a cleaner non-saison beer, see if I can ferment at 78-80F and not get the off flavours that s-05/notty kicks out at that temp. I will also give a hefty underpitch on my next saison a shot too.

 

[JLW]

I used 6 oz of priming sugar and it's ben two weeks.

I grabbed three bottles out of the rubbermaid container and the caps on the 4 12 oz bottles had buldged just a bit. Hope that's not a sign of things to come.

All of the 22's seemed fine.

 

[Jboggeye]

6 oz of priming seems high to me if you aren't using belgian bottles. I would stick all the bulging ones in the fridge ASAP.

 

[JLW]

Yeah I stuck those in the fridge for sampling. I was going to move the rest to my beer closet but now I am thinking it might be better to leave in the rubbermaid container.

 

[smokinghole]

Unless you bottled much less than 5gal your bottles should end up around 3.2ish volumes of CO2. That is assuming that you were at terminal gravity. If you have any bottles with integrity issues there is a chance for it to be shown at these pressures. If you ended up over 5 gal I wouldn't really worry. Just keep them somewhere a blown bottle won't be an issue.

 

[SaccharoVices]

I brewed last weekend, had OG of 1.054, took a reading today (5 days out)

and gravity is 1.007! great job 3711! I'll let it go for another week, then crash

ferm temp has been 67F, 3 degree threshold on the ranco controller, so

maybe got to 70F. am currently tasting this alongside the gravity sample of

a brew done two weeks ago with 3724 (dupont)- much different profile,

3711 is very mild and fruity (was fermed at lower temps) 3724 is full-on

pepper, spice and earth (fermed at 90F) amazingly similar to saison dupont

 

[ChshreCat]

When I ferment 3711 warm, I get much more of the spice and pepper than you are getting keeping it cool.

 

[SaccharoVices]

ChshreCat-

Is there a commercial example that you could reference for the flavor and characteristics

that you are getting from 3711 at higher temps? also- what temp are you allowing it to

get to? Thanks

 

[ChshreCat]

Can't really point to a commercial example. Dupont is the "classic example" but they put a bunch of unnecessary spices and crap in theirs.

I generally make my saisons in the summer when temp control gets hard. I just put it in a tub of water for thermal mass and let it go. Ambient temps range from the high 80's and 90's during the day down to the 70's and 80's at night. The water keeps my temps fairly level somewhere around 80. If it gets too high, I get some fusel alcohols. If I can avoid them, at 9% abv my saison tastes about as alcoholic as a can of Fresca.

It's kind of a fine line to walk between getting all the flavors you can out of the yeast and avoiding fusels so I don't blame anyone for keeping things cool. Although... you should try some warmer temps and see how you like them.

I do pitch at close to 60 and have the water it my tub as least that cool so the yeast are nice and chilly when they start out. Temps in the fermenter usually don't start rising until the ferment is well underway, perhaps 12 to 18 hours after start.

 

[smokinghole]

Can't really point to a commercial example. Dupont is the "classic example" but they put a bunch of unnecessary spices and crap in theirs.

I was under the impression that Dupont did not spice. Fantome on the other hand spices as far as I know. Or do you mean the temp they ferment at causes the yeast to exude a lot of spice.

 

[Houblon]

Dupont is the "classic example" but they put a bunch of unnecessary spices and crap in theirs..

Dupont does not add any spices.

 

[petep1980]

My buddy came by last night and he swears this strain comes across between a hefeweizen and a belgian. He says he gets lots of banana. I don't taste any FWIW.

I did primary @ 66-68F.

 

[JLW]

I drank my first one yesterday afternoon and I did not get any banana. I fermented high in the upper 70's. It was really good only two weeks in the bottle. I'll post a pic later.

 

[petep1980]

I drank my first one yesterday afternoon and I did not get any banana. I fermented high in the upper 70's. It was really good only two weeks in the bottle. I'll post a pic later.

I get a little banana when I burp maybe. But all I get is black pepper and ZERO fruit. Mine is outrageously clean, I would def ferment warmer next time.

 

[JLW]

I took a risk and just let this one go on temp glad I did!

 

[petep1980]

What I cannot get over is the body this yeast leaves. I went from 1.040 to 1.005 and it has the mouthfeel of a stout it's unbelievable. No one believes the beer is as light as it is.

 

[JLW]

Same with mine. I went from 1.062 to 1.001. I used 6 oz of priming sugar (in hindsight it might have been too much) but the head is thick and has awesome retention.

This beer will be perfect for the beach in 3 weeks.

 

[Jboggeye]

I don't quite get the same results, I get more spice when I ferment lower than higher. But I know ChshreCat has much more experience than I do with this yeast.

Oh, and Dupont doesn't use spices! the Belgian strain seems to provide all that is needed...

 

[ChshreCat]

Good to know about Dupont. I've always heard it was spiced. I haven't tried it because imports in green bottles are always disappointing to me. I'm saving myself to try that one at the source someday.