Wort Does Not Boil At 212 Degrees

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AZCoolerBrewer

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Hey, I discovered that high gravity wort doesn't boil at 212 degrees fahrenheit. A month or so ago I was making my Christmas ale and watching the boil very carefully so that it wouldn't boil over and the temp blew right by 212 and right by 220. I thought my thermomitor was broken and had planned on purchasing a new one at the LHBS when I picked up the ingredients for my next batch. While researching kettle carmelization for my scotch ale project, I learned that as the sugar content in the water increases, so does the boiling temp. To confirm I put my thermometer in clean boiling water and sure enough it is right on the money. I looked all over the interwebs and can't find a chart that shows the temps related to specific gravity. One guy showed the calculations, but what is the internet for if I has to do maths? Anyone have a beer specific chart? I think it might help me with my scotch ale project to get me to mallaird reaction temps.
 
Interesting. What SG was your Christmas Ale pre-boil? I guess in theory SG makes a difference Ii just never thought it would be one that was noticeable on the home brew scale.
 
IDK. I get the start of a roll at about 210 no matter what the gravity of the brew is. But, as soon as I see it start to roll I am watching for boil over and not what the temperature is.
 
Depends on gravity, but this is how things such as candi sugar, caramel and candy are made....
 
Did you try boiling syrup? It has to be syrup/jelly like have enough concentration to raise the boiling temp to the 220f range (from making invert sugar).

Even the 1.090 gravity brews I've done boil at 211-212 here in Minneapolis
 
:rolleyes:

I don't suppose you made a note of where the calculations were shown? They'd be useful to me...

You know my gut said based on my experience that the calculations weren't accurate. His values showed an extremely negligible difference with a pretty big brew. Mine was at least fifteen degrees diiferent at less than 1.096. I was thinking about putting together an experiment and build my own chart with a quart or so of test wort that I would add DME, bring to a boil, record temp, cool, measure SG and do again, until I have a good data set. Maybe 5 data points between 1.050 and 1.150.
 
I think your elevation above sea level would make more of a difference in the boiling point of the wort than the SG. The elevation of about 2,200 feet at Cave Creek should reduce the boiling point of water to about 208°F.

Found this article concerning the boiling point of wort. A wort with an SG of 1.060 would boil at 212.5°F at sea level.
http://beerandwinejournal.com/boil-theory/

Could your thermometer have been resting against the kettle bottom or side?
 
Interesting. I've never noticed a big difference in boil temp vs OG. Certainly not 15+ degrees. Something is amiss.
 
One guy showed the calculations, but what is the internet for if I has to do maths? .

Why answer your question when you can just google for it?

Ok since you want the simple and easy handed on a platter method.

sucrose_boiling_point_graph.jpg


I know its not maltose/maltotriose but its the best I'm willing to dig for without calculating individual BP elevetations of the specific sugars found in wort.
 
Very interesting. This chart also does not correlate to my experience based on percent solution/SG charts that I looked at. I must do the experiment.

You won't find any corroborating evidence to support your claim, because it's physically impossible (unless there is something really amiss that you've withheld from telling us).

To confirm I put my thermometer in clean boiling water and sure enough it is right on the money.

If your thermometer was "right on the money" (i.e. 212°F), then it's broken. You're at ~2,000ft above sea level, so that makes your boiling point about 208°F. If your thermometer says anything else, it's off.

You are claiming a wort boiling point in excess of 220°F. As noted in the graph above, you'd have to have a sugar concentration approaching 70% to reach that high of a temp (105°C = 221°F), and that's at sea level. For reference, a wort of 1.100 will be < 25% sugar, so there's no way you're near the 70% mark.

It's quite obvious that one of two things is broken: your thermometer, or your measurement procedure.

I know you say you don't suspect the thermometer, but I'd get another one (or 3) and verify. Personally I use no less than 4 thermometers on brew day: a couple of analog ones, a digital one, and an infrared one.
 
There are several factors that effect boiling temperature.

Added Sugar:
Assuming your Christmas Ale has a SG of 1.075. The increase in temperature due to added sugars will be on the order of 1.5°F.

This increase in temp is due to the molality of the sugars in the wort. An SG of 1.075 is approximately equivalent to a molality of 1.1; assuming the best case of all sugars being glucose. Any maltose, longer chain sugars, residual starches or proteins will reduce the over all molality of the solution and thereby reduce the increase in boiling temp.

See boiling point elevation. http://www.chem.purdue.edu/gchelp/solutions/eboil.html


Hydrogen bonds and proteins:
These sugars (whatever their kind) as well as any proteins have an additional effect on the boiling point. Glucose, maltose, etc. being composed of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen will bind chemically with water via hydrogen bonding. Proteins are large molecules with many hydrogen atoms. Water can bond to proteins via hydrogen bonding as well. In addition to this, water may become trapped in the tangled mess that make up many proteins. The result of these reactions and trapping is to effectively increase the molality of the solution as there is less free water to boil. I found no definitive data but my initial evaluation indicates that the total effect will be an additional increase in the boiling point of <1°F

Position of the Thermometer:
You do not describe the configuration of your boil kettle or boil size so I will make some assumptions.
6.5 gallon boil volume
10 gallon BK
Thermocouple installed in the side wall ~ 6" from the bottom
Rolling boil

Temperature Gradient
The temperature of the bottom of the BK (not of the wort) will be substantially above 212°F. I have not had time to work through the heat transfer equations yet but I expect it to be in the 250°F-300°F range. There will be a temperature gradient between the bottom of the BK and the top surface of the wort. Due to convection and a rolling boil this gradient will be relatively small but will effect an increase in the reading of the thermocouple. Say +1°F

Head pressure:
Wort will be boiling on the bottom of the BK. Due to the height of the wort in the BK the boiling point at the bottom will be several °F higher than the boiling point at the top. 18-24 inches of wort will increase the BP from 212°F to ~216°F. With the thermocouple 6" higher the boiling point will be ~215°F. +3°F (This does not take into account the reduction in BP due to your elevation as noted in a previous post.)

Superheated vapor:
Since the wort is boiling off of a ~250°F surface the gas in the bubbles will be hotter than the surrounding liquid. As these gas bubble pass by the thermocouple it will register a higher temp. Due to the short resident time and the small heat transfer coefficient of the water vapor this will probably have little effect. +1°F

Summary
+1.5°F for sugars
+0.5°F for trapped water and hydrogen bonding
+1.0°F for temp gradient
+3.0°F for head pressure
+1.0°F for superheated vapor
=====
7.0°F total or ~219°F.

Granted I made several assumptions and it has been a while since my thermo and chem classes but I think that the major increase in measured BP is due to the position of the thermocouple. The increase due to SG alone is not sufficient to account for the 8°F+ change you noted. Anyone experienced in thermodynamics is welcome to correct any of this.
:mug:

To achieve this temp increase only due to SG we would need an OG of ~1.600 or ~84# DME for a 6.5 gal boil volume.

YMMV
:goat:
 
A little background. I brew 2 gallon batches and started with around 2.7 gallons. I think that my pre-boil gravity was around 1.075 based on brewersfriend OG FG calculator, so that assumption was pretty close. I use a glass alcohol thermometer and hold it off the bottom of the brew pot about 6 inches, which again was a good assumption. I swirl the wort with a spoon to get a good temp. I'm glad to know there are other factors and as was pointed out I do believe my thermometer is off by around 4 degrees at 210. Thanks to renrutle for the deep thought and calculation. There is a lot of detail in the fine structure and experience cannot be discarded.
 
Yeah, I noticed that awhile ago on my setup. Seems like simple science: since water boils at 212F, but wort is a solution with a lot of sugars and stuff mixed in, the boiling point will rise.
 
From a practical stand point we boil wort for several reasons.

1. Sanitation – as long as the temp is above ~180°F for 20+ minutes we kill all the unwanted nasties.
2. Bittering hop oils isomerise best in really hot water +200°F.
3. DMS created during the mash is reduced.
4. Boil off water to increase SG.

Unless you are in a high altitude vacuum chamber, or on another planet with very low atmospheric pressure, any boiling temp you achieve on planet earth will be high enough to achieve these objectives.

The rest is art and consistency.

:goat:
 
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