Wort Aeration

[bobbrews]

I'm not going to acknowledge some of this because you're just ranting, but...

People who are trying to figure out the optimal way to do things are miles ahead of lazy brewers who convince themselves their beers are "great" no matter how poor their process is.

Two extremes, and there are detriments to each extreme. Being too hung up on the details, which may not even matter, may be just as bad as neglecting them altogether. There's nothing wrong with teaching yourself something with that perfectionist type of mentality. I get that. But there comes a point when you realize that you were worrying about things all along that did not actually better your beer.

Think of it like racing. There are perfectionists out there who spend thousands upgrading their little ricer engine, buying the best of the best, most popular, state of the art equipment. And then they race a classic muscle car, with little work done to it, and the ricer loses the 1/4 mile by a whole 3 seconds.

 

[osagedr]

But there comes a point when you realize that you were worrying about things all along that did not actually better your beer.

I can agree that brewers will end up worrying about things that they later will come to realize did not affect the quality of their beer. Experience is incredibly important. It's also true that budget constraints will keep brewers from having all the toys that may help them brew better beer.

I'm glad you used a racing analogy. Pure O2 in your wort is like nitrous oxide in your engine. You don't need it but it sure improves performance.

 

[photolimo]

That is a huge deviation in results. I wonder why that is.

Here is the response to the deviation from Chris White, the author of the "Yeast" book. Turns out he is fairly easy to get a hold of.

Yeah I've seen that Wyeast number but in my experience that is very high. I think it came from Gregg Doss and he is a big guy haha. Our shaking experiments are in a carboy on the ground, shaking/stiring the carboy by hand for 5 min.

It would be great if we could get a full explanation of this method to clear up some of the confusion around these numbers.

Does anybody have a Dissolved Oxygen meter that they can check these other methods? It would be great if we could document a reliable repeatable method for shaking/stirring or using a drill.

 

[WoodlandBrew]

Does anybody have a Dissolved Oxygen meter that they can check these other methods? It would be great if we could document a reliable repeatable method for shaking/stirring or using a drill.[/QUOTE]

That would be wonderful data to see! You can also measure dissolved oxygen with titration. Using something like this:

Hanna Instruments HI3810 Dissolved Oxygen Test Kit, For Approximate 110 Tests

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Because i typically use whole hops i pour my wort through a big fine mesh metal strainer as its going into my bucket. At the end of that my beer has like a 2-3 inch layer of foam on top, i always just assumed that was close to enough oxygen...but i typically rock the fermenter back and forth with the lid on to agitate it a bit more...

 

[3sheetsEMJ]

This, as with so many other homebrew questions, always comes down to people wanting to defend the way they do things. So few people approach this with an open mind.

"I do _________________ and my beer always turns out GREAT!!!!"

Unless you are saying that from behind a big box of NHC medals, your beer can get better.

Kudos to those who are looking for a scientific explanation of what the optimal way to do things is.

While I agree that "good enough" may not be good enough for some folks, I believe that with most novice/intermediate brewers the idea is to isolate the variables that greatly affect the beer quality first, such a ferm temps, boiling process and even recipe- the low lying fruit- then move toward the finer details, such as aerated wort. I would say that very few of us even get to the level where exact wort aeration is a Primary concern to the quality of the brew. I mean if youre looking to start a brewing company, then yes you Have to worry about these details.

I admit I have made the comment above, but I am only speaking to the beginner brewer who is afraid that his/her beer will be ruined if these types of variable are not exact. If you are looking to improve every slight aspect of your brew, then thats awesome please continue, but my comment is not for you. I know what you might say, that we should give advice to beginners that is good advice and not just "good enough", but really, if i splash my wort and have gotten consistent results after 20+ brews, then I would say its at least satisfactory for a beginner. And in the same sense, giving a beginner too much info can be just as harmful. Learning how to brew beer is just like any other hobby, sometimes you just have to do it over and over again and find what works for you. Give a beginner too much Scientific data and they may not even know where to start.

Id also like to point out that even large scale brewerys get O2 issues. I know the plant manager of a large brewey in town and he gave me a case of "high O2" beer that they couldnt sell bc the oxygen levels were too high. The beer tasted great but the shelf life was deminished. The point is, even with world class equipment, O2 issues can still happen, and you can still make awesome beer haha.

 

[osagedr]

I believe that with most novice/intermediate brewers the idea is to isolate the variables that greatly affect the beer quality first, such a ferm temps, boiling process and even recipe- the low lying fruit...

Fermentation affects beer quality more than any other variable. As you note, temperature control is a big part of this, but so are proper pitching rates and creating the best possible conditions for your yeast. These are much more important than "boiling process" (drain into kettle, sparge, add heat?) or recipe formulation, both of which are incredibly straightforward. It won't matter how good your recipe is if you don't ferment it properly. By contrast, there are thousands of tried-and-true recipes out there covering every imaginable style.

Given that any brewer can start aerating with pure oxygen for probably less than $50, I'd certainly consider it "low-hanging fruit." There's a reason commercial breweries do it. The "large brewery in town" must have really screwed up to have an issue like that.

 

[3sheetsEMJ]

Given that any brewer can start aerating with pure oxygen for probably less than $50, I'd certainly consider it "low-hanging fruit." There's a reason commercial breweries do it. The "large brewery in town" must have really screwed up to have an issue like that.

Yes fermentation is probably the most important step, but I wouldnt say buying pure oxygen is low hanging fruit for a beginner. We can agree to disagree with this, thats fine with me.

As far as large brewerys doing it, yes they have to keep all variables as close to identical as possible in order to have repeatable quality product. This can still go awry from time to time. As with any production process, you have upper and lower quality thresholds, and outside of these limits the product is scrapped. No production process is perfect. Trust me on this one- I used to be an engineer in an aerospace manufacturing plant where we made the inside of jet engines. We made scrap, sure, but theidea is that you find the product with defects and scrap them so they dont get to the customer. Its the same with beer. The beer was delicious by the way, and lasted very long in my fridge!

 

[bobbrews]

There's a reason commercial breweries do it.

Also, brewing thousands of dollars worth of hectolitres of beer with commercial equipment, large-scale brewing processes, wide-scale distribution, and all of the other factors in between is totally different than how the average 5 gallon homebrewer brews beer. In short, just because they jump off the bridge doesn't mean all of us should... or even need to as it pertains to producing high quality beer.

 

[osagedr]

Also, brewing thousands of dollars worth of hectolitres of beer with commercial equipment, large-scale brewing processes, wide-scale distribution, and all of the other factors in between is totally different than how the average 5 gallon homebrewer brews beer. In short, just because they jump off the bridge doesn't mean all of us should... or even need to as it pertains to producing high quality beer.

Either it improves their beer, or it doesn't. Breweries do it because they believe it improves their beer.

Either it improves home brewed beer, or it doesn't. Many homebrewers do it because they believe it improves their beer.

The scientific literature explains why and how it improves beer. That's all I need to make my decision--but not everyone wants to make their beer better. They just want it to be "good enough." More power to them. Maybe some have tried it and decided it doesn't make their beer better, so they abandoned the practise. So be it.

 

[bobbrews]

Trust me, I'm in the camp to make better beer. But when you don't see the benefits with one proposed method vs. another, you can kinda call ********. 02 infusion does have benefits for larger than normal, very high OG batches, and full carboys where you can't shake enough air into the wort. But in some cases, as previously described, the shake method performs perfectly well.

 

[osagedr]

You can call ******** on whether you personally were doing it right, but you can't call ******** on science, the brewing literature, commercial breweries, or award-winning homebrewers.

Well, you can...but that would make you an idiot.

 

[bobbrews]

Think of it like wort chilling. Do you need a wort chiller to cool 2 gallons of beer in a reasonable amount of time? No, ice can do this quite well. But I would definitely recommend a wort chiller to cool 10 gallons of beer.

Who's the idiot? Because I thought that was using your head vs. just repeating what you read.

 

[osagedr]

Who's the idiot? Because I thought that was using your head vs. just repeating what you read.

The idiot would be the one thinking they are right but science, the brewing literature, professional brewers, and award-winning homebrewers are wrong. I've not met this hypothetical idiot yet. I hope eons of evolution and natural selection have combined to ensure this hypothetical idiot will never exist.

 

[MaxOut]

I'll go with the "Science" if you want you can shake and guess. Whatever works for you. I apply what I read and don't spend allot of time re inventing the wheel or trying to disprove science. Experience doesn't necessarily make you a better brewer. I'd rather let someone else make mistakes instead of learning through my own trial and error. I'm intelligent enough to realize what I'm reading and the source.

 

[bobbrews]

The idiot would be the one thinking they are right but science, the brewing literature, professional brewers, and award-winning homebrewers are wrong. I've not met this hypothetical idiot yet. I hope eons of evolution and natural selection have combined to ensure this hypothetical idiot will never exist.

The funny thing is I was never refuting science, so I'm not sure where you got that from my argument. Re read the wort chilling example... same principle. This necessary 02 system that you're gunning for does not make a better beer in all cases for every brewers' system and style of beer that they typially brew. Sometimes there are just more simple ways of doing things... and the end results are still on point. Other times, certain processes are necessary for attaining a high quality product. In another example, I hate topping off with a passion, but topping off 6 gallons of beer with 1 gallon of water is far better than topping off with 3 gallons of water.

 

[scinerd3000]

Does anyone have data on the disadvantages of over-aerating with pure O2 and a stone? I know the problems it causes with shelf life and post-fermentation DO, I would be interested to see what it does for freshly fermented beer, though.

http://***********/stories/wizard/a.../177-batch-sparging-a-oxygen-limits-mr-wizard

On a side note, really the only time (in my opinion) that someone would need to oxygenate with a stone is with a large beer. For example, making a Utopia clone or any huge beer over 1.080 SG, you will want to oxygenate initially and say every 6 hours or so for the first day or two depending on the gravity. As the yeast grows and reproduces it needs oxygen but shaking a fermenting carboy with an airlock on after it has started to ferment does not add any oxygen...therefor a tertiary device is needed. More importantly for me, it makes me less likely to break the carboy during "shaking"...

 

[JJFlash]

I use a high grade dissolved oxygen meter for all my brews and have done this the past several years. My personal opinion is that there is way too much bad advice given on this subject.

From "Handbook of Brewing", Priest & Stewart, the recommendation for oxygen in a commercial brewing is 1ppm/ degree Plato.

Without a high quality dissoloved oxygen meter you have absolutely no idea how much oxygen is going into the wort. This advice for 1 or 2 minutes is a wild guess. Its like turning on the shower and guessing how many gallons of water flow in 1 or 2 minutes. That said, the seat of the pants brewers can, by multiple repetitions of any aspect of brewing, make great beer. I know a homebrewer than doesn't own a hydrometer and makes good beer!

Low gravity beer <1.060, is very forgiving of mistakes especially using 1056 yeast. However, high gravity beer and certain delicate yeasts are more unforgiving of mistakes. Full instruments help guide me in these extreme beers to a quality finish.

All that said the one very interesting fact I have discovered over the years of monitoring dissolved oxygen in wort, is how quickly dissolved oxgen comes out of solution and the O2 ppm rapidly drops after initial application. That is the reason it is often recommended on big beers a second application of oxygen at 12 hours.

 

[WoodlandBrew]

JJ, A dissolved oxygen meter is a tool I wish I had. Are the numbers that were posted earlier in this thread about the same as what you measure, or maybe different? It would be great to just have another data point instead of just going off of one set of information.

Post 26 on page 3.

 

[scottland]

I'll chime in.

I don't get noticeably better fermentation on standard gravity beers on the first pitch since moving to a oxygen bottle and stone.
I do get slightly quicker and better attenuation of high gravity beers on the first pitch since moving to a pure O2 setup.
I definitely get more consistent and better fermentation on 2nd, 3rd, and 4thh re-pitches of yeast. It's not a night and day difference, but it's definitely noticeable.

If you repitch yeast, and brew high gravity beers, you'll see value in a $40 O2 setup. I'm sorry, but you can shake to your hearts content, but you're not going to adequately aerate a 1.090 wort by shaking alone. Higher gravity wort is more difficult to infuse O2 in, and your yeasts O2 requirement is higher in a high gravity wort. You'll still make great beer, but that great beer could be excellent beer if it had proper DO levels.

 

[JJFlash]

Are the numbers that were posted earlier in this thread about the same as what you measure, or maybe different? /QUOTE]

I believe the common wisdom of aeration with aquarium pump and stone to max of 8ppm is a good approximation. When using oxygen there are way too many variables for me to give any accurate approximations/suggestions. Oxygen flow rate is huge. Stone size, placement, wort gravity, temperature, etc. all affect final oxygen concentrations. Many homebrewers use the standard red bottle oxygen from the big box stores. Just like the propane torch you can slightly crank open the valve for small flame, or wide open for a MASSIVE torch. My regulators run from 0.25 L/min to 10L/min, a forty fold flow increase. I am frequently adjusting my regulator to hit the numbers.

Prior to a DO meter I use to run my red bottle oxygen until the foam got up to the neck of the fermentor. You cannot really over oxygenate the wort to yeast killing levels with this set up. Again, most of this dissolved oxygen comes right out of solution.

 

[bobbrews]

I'm sorry, but you can shake to your hearts content, but you're not going to adequately aerate a 1.090 wort by shaking alone. Higher gravity wort is more difficult to infuse O2 in, and your yeasts O2 requirement is higher in a high gravity wort. You'll still make great beer, but that great beer could be excellent beer if it had proper DO levels.

I completely agree. Which is why I made the distinction of when the shake method works very well, and when additional methods may be required. Very high OG worts require a little extra umpff.

 

[RIC0]

Maybe I missed it in this thread but how often should you areate a 5 gallon batch? My current and recent method is STSOOT.(shake the **** out of it)

One time a day, every two days, every three days, twice a day?? Help a dummy out please.

My knowledge is getting better by the day researching this site, it's superb members and my OCD has kicked in to the extreme. I work from home and have plenty of time each day to tend to my liquid gold buckets and carboys in my fermenting room.

I have a drill and no problem getting a paint mixer if that does an even better job of giten r dun??

 

[Antler]

This, as with so many other homebrew questions, always comes down to people wanting to defend the way they do things. So few people approach this with an open mind.

"I do _________________ and my beer always turns out GREAT!!!!"

Unless you are saying that from behind a big box of NHC medals, your beer can get better.

Kudos to those who are looking for a scientific explanation of what the optimal way to do things is.

Amen! I ferment everything in a corner of my basement, up until recently just dumping a single vial of yeast into the fermenter and aerating by shaking.

Yeah I've made some good beers, but we all know fermentation temps and yeast starters will produce better beers. If shaking was the best way to aerate, youd see breweries using something to shake the wort.

 

[grathan]

Are the numbers that were posted earlier in this thread about the same as what you measure, or maybe different? /QUOTE]

I believe the common wisdom of aeration with aquarium pump and stone to max of 8ppm is a good approximation. When using oxygen there are way too many variables for me to give any accurate approximations/suggestions. Oxygen flow rate is huge. Stone size, placement, wort gravity, temperature, etc. all affect final oxygen concentrations. Many homebrewers use the standard red bottle oxygen from the big box stores. Just like the propane torch you can slightly crank open the valve for small flame, or wide open for a MASSIVE torch. My regulators run from 0.25 L/min to 10L/min, a forty fold flow increase. I am frequently adjusting my regulator to hit the numbers.

Prior to a DO meter I use to run my red bottle oxygen until the foam got up to the neck of the fermentor. You cannot really over oxygenate the wort to yeast killing levels with this set up. Again, most of this dissolved oxygen comes right out of solution.

JJ it is great someone with a DO meter has finally chimed in. be there may be a lot of variables, could you provide some of your variables and the results attained? For example:

1.050 OG
5 micron SS stone, 5 psi O2 for 30 seconds at *65F = 10ppm


thanks.

 

[bobbrews]

If shaking was the best way to aerate, youd see breweries using something to shake the wort.

Have you ever tried shaking 600 gallons of beer? Don't be silly. Large scale brewery operations vs. the average 5 gallon homebrewer system are quite different.

 

[Brulosopher]

I know a guy who did a side by side: shaken vs. oxy stone. The anecdotal results? No one could tell the difference between the two beers (same recipe). I agree with whoever said this issue will just incite people to defend whatever it is they do. The great thing about homebrewing is that we're not commercial brewers

 

[scottland]

I know a guy who did a side by side: shaken vs. oxy stone. The anecdotal results? No one could tell the difference between the two beers (same recipe). I agree with whoever said this issue will just incite people to defend whatever it is they do. The great thing about homebrewing is that we're not commercial brewers

Again, look back to my post about 8 replies ago. What gravity was the beer, and what generation was the yeast?

For beers under like 1.070, on the first generation of yeast, I don't notice any difference. Subsequent generations or higher gravity beers, I do.

If you never brew beers over 1.070, and don't repitch yeast, don't bother spending money on aeration.

 

[Hamsterbite]

One supposed advantage to using pure O2 over shake/stir is better head formation/retention in the finished beer.

It is believed that the proteins in beer that are necessary for head formation are a one time thing. So when you create foam in your wort by dump/pour, paint stirrers, vigorous shaking, etc., you may be diminishing the head formation potential of the finished beer. You are also volatizing some of the aroma.

 

[Antler]

Have you ever tried shaking 600 gallons of beer? Don't be silly. Large scale brewery operations vs. the average 5 gallon homebrewer system are quite different.

Have you ever bottled 600 gallons of beer?

Don't be silly.

 

[RIC0]

And if you shake your bucket after a week or two of fermenting what would happen?

Would this settled yeast simply eat a little more sugar?

 

[WoodlandBrew]

And if you shake your bucket after a week or two of fermenting what would happen?

You would end up with oxidized alcohols such as acetaldehyde. It would likely have a "butter" or "green apples" taste.

 

[bufitfn]

Here is my inline oxygernator, I use it during entire transfer from chiller to fermenter. It has made an unbelievable difference in lag time, most of my beers take of within hours, dry or liquid yeast. Before using this it would be 16 to 24 hours, now 6 to 10. I;m a firm believer in using Oxy to make yeast happy.

 

[bobbrews]

Have you ever bottled 600 gallons of beer?

Don't be silly.

Big breweries do smart a$$. That was the whole point.

 

[Dan]

Originally Posted by RIC0
And if you shake your bucket after a week or two of fermenting what would happen?

You would end up with oxidized fatty acids such as DMS. It would likely have a "wet cardboard" taste.

I've never quite followed that reasoning. If you shake your wort in a sealed environment with only CO2 covering it, how does O2 get introduced? Through the airlock?

 

[Hamsterbite]

If you tried that on a bucket fermentor you'd probably end up deforming the sides of the bucket, which would create a suction through the airlock and you'd pull your sanitizer into the beer.
You only want to oxygenate when you pitch anyway. Oxygen after fermentation = stale beer.

 

[ArkansasRazorbacks]

Maybe I missed it in this thread but how often should you areate a 5 gallon batch? My current and recent method is STSOOT.(shake the **** out of it)

One time a day, every two days, every three days, twice a day?? Help a dummy out please.

My knowledge is getting better by the day researching this site, it's superb members and my OCD has kicked in to the extreme. I work from home and have plenty of time each day to tend to my liquid gold buckets and carboys in my fermenting room.

I have a drill and no problem getting a paint mixer if that does an even better job of giten r dun??

Shake it only when wort is chilled right before pitching the yeast, then never shaking it ever again.

 

[WoodlandBrew]

I've never quite followed that reasoning. If you shake your wort in a sealed environment with only CO2 covering it, how does O2 get introduced? Through the airlock?

You're right it it was just CO2 nothing would oxidize, but I thought he was trying to get oxygen in to aid in fermentation so I assumed that he must be opening the bucket.

 

[Dan]

If you tried that on a bucket fermentor you'd probably end up deforming the sides of the bucket, which would create a suction through the airlock and you'd pull your sanitizer into the beer.
You only want to oxygenate when you pitch anyway. Oxygen after fermentation = stale beer.

You're right it it was just CO2 nothing would oxidize, but I thought he was trying to get oxygen in to aid in fermentation so I assumed that he must be opening the bucket.

I agree with you both. It would be detrimental to aerate a normal graivty beer after a the first day or so. I just think sometimes people freak out a little to much about oxidation in the fermenter from a little movement.

Sorry to sidetrack a great thread.

 

[Brulosopher]

One supposed advantage to using pure O2 over shake/stir is better head formation/retention in the finished beer.

It is believed that the proteins in beer that are necessary for head formation are a one time thing. So when you create foam in your wort by dump/pour, paint stirrers, vigorous shaking, etc., you may be diminishing the head formation potential of the finished beer. You are also volatizing some of the aroma.

I bet the hell outta my wort with a paint stirrer





Just sayin'