Word to the wise... Don't freeze wort in your borosilicate flask

[TheZymurgist]

I should have known better. When I saw it, I thought, "that makes perfect sense." But, I figured since borosilicate can go from hot to cold without any issues, why would there be any issue with freezing it?

The shape, moron. The shape. Since the sides of the flask narrow as they go up, if the top freezes first, the bottom has nowhere to expand, except down. So, needless to say, I blew out the bottom of my flask. Luckily, I had just purchased a second. Unfortunately, I now need to purchase a third. I'm sure many will read the title of this and say, "duh!" I probably would have too...

 

[MrHopScotch]

Oh man, your description followed my thought process perfectly. Sorry you broke your flask, but I'm glad I was able to experience this one through you.

 

[b-boy]

Yup - Frozen water is nasty stuff. It can exert enough pressure to crack an engine block if you don't winterize your boat properly.

 

[TheZymurgist]

Oh man, your description followed my thought process perfectly. Sorry you broke your flask, but I'm glad I was able to experience this one through you.

Yup! Hence the demotivational poster.

 

[Jayhem]

Never did understand that expression "Word to the wise".

Because if you are telling only the wise people this...wise people already know not to freeze liquid in such a container.

So really it should be "Word to other idiots".

 

[passedpawn]

Good advice! I've done much worse and later wondered what the hell I was thinking. Der.

BTW, I thought Sir Earnest Shackleton's ill-fated ship was a better fit for your motivational poster.

 

[Brettomomyces]

Better than the time I cracked a 5L flask by trying to heat it with an electric stovetop coil

I was new then

 

[fuzzy2133]

FWIW I would have over looked the shape too!

 

[tenbricks]

Better than the time I cracked a 5L flask by trying to heat it with an electric stovetop coil

Hmm. I have made uncounted (dozens maybe?) numbers of starters by boiling wort in both 2l and 5l flasks on an electric coil.

I hope you haven't just jinxed me . . . .

 

[TheZymurgist]

Never did understand that expression "Word to the wise".

Because if you are telling only the wise people this...wise people already know not to freeze liquid in such a container.

So really it should be "Word to other idiots".

Well, that's exactly what it means, it's just a way to euphemistically put it. Just like saying "bless their heart" means "how the heck can they be so stupid?"

 

[poptarts]

I left mine to soak out in the garage the other day after pitching yeast, don't let it soak full of water when its 10* outside, I feel your pain and embarrassment.

 

[dyqik]

Never did understand that expression "Word to the wise".

Because if you are telling only the wise people this...wise people already know not to freeze liquid in such a container.

So really it should be "Word to other idiots".

I think the original meaning is "A word to those wise is sufficient", meaning that the wise will heed your warning. There's no point warning idiots, because they won't listen and learn from your mistakes.

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/A+Word+to+the+Wise+Is+Sufficient

 

[passedpawn]

I guess I can admit that I filled a 5g carboy with boiling wort and put it in my cold January pool to chill. Ended up late at night in tennis shoes wading around in there picking up shards, watching the wort slowly work it's way along the bottom to the deep end of the pool.

Don't put boiling wort in glass carboys. There's a word for the wise

 

[b-boy]

I still wince and widen my stance everytime I pour boiling wort into a borosilicate flask. I'm just waiting for one of them to explode.

 

[fuzzy2133]

The crackling from the flask during a short boil and cooling scares me. Even using the lowest amount of flame to boil is uneasy. I'll be going back to a sauce pan on the next one.

 

[ktblunden]

The crackling from the flask during a short boil and cooling scares me. Even using the lowest amount of flame to boil is uneasy. I'll be going back to a sauce pan on the next one.

There shouldn't be any crackling at all. I'd be wary of pouring boiling wort in that one as well. I've heated mine on direct flame dozens of times and my flask never made a sound.

 

[fuzzy2133]

Crackling is what I think I am hearing, its the sound of the stoves cast grate expanding with the flask on it.

 

[cjgenever]

Never did understand that expression "Word to the wise".

Because if you are telling only the wise people this...wise people already know not to freeze liquid in such a container.

So really it should be "Word to other idiots".

because the greatest wisdom is knowing how to learn from mistakes. You can't learn from others mistakes without listening. Therefore, a wise man may already know better, but he will still be listening. And it comes across better than "Jerry, I know you're stupid enough to do this thing I did so don't do it"!

 

[cjgenever]

because the greatest wisdom is knowing how to learn from mistakes. You can't learn from others mistakes without listening. Therefore, a wise man may already know better, but he will still be listening. And it comes across better than "Jerry, I know you're stupid enough to do this thing I did so don't do it"!

I have no idea who Jerry is or why his name somehow appeared in my post. Apparently the universe is trying to tell us that we must find this Jerry and explain his stupidity to him. Sorry Jerry

 

[cjgenever]

The crackling from the flask during a short boil and cooling scares me. Even using the lowest amount of flame to boil is uneasy. I'll be going back to a sauce pan on the next one.

There can be (often is) a popping or pinging sound produced by sudden vaporization of water at localized hot spots. It is a phenomenon that occurs when boiling in glass. I think it has something to do with the glass being a weak insulator, I don't remember the physics explanation. Lab supplies actually sell glass beads that you put in the vessel to stop this from happening, but are not necessary and not recommended for starters. You don't want to be filtering out beads while pitching.

Could this be the sound you are referring to?

 

[MrHopScotch]

There can be (often is) a popping or pinging sound produced by sudden vaporization of water at localized hot spots. It is a phenomenon that occurs when boiling in glass. I think it has something to do with the glass being a weak insulator, I don't remember the physics explanation. Lab supplies actually sell glass beads that you put in the vessel to stop this from happening, but are not necessary and not recommended for starters. You don't want to be filtering out beads while pitching.

Could this be the sound you are referring to?

If the crackling happens shortly before the boil I think this may be part of it. Often when heating liquid quickly, the bottom surface of the container will be hot enough to boil, but the whole volume of liquid is still too cold. When this happens, some of the bottom layer does boil but as soon as the bubble forms, the temperature causes the vapor to become liquid and the bubble violently collapses. This can be pretty noisy in a normal pan but I bet glass would really cause this to resonate.

And if the flask is on electric coils, you are likely hearing the coils expanding under the flask and scraping it, as someone mentioned earlier.

The whole reason we use borosilicate glass is because of its low thermal expansivity, so I would be surprised if the crackling was the sound of the flask itself changing shape.

 

[cjgenever]

Yeah, I wouldn't be worried about it the crackling too much. As long as you are using open flame or a trivet on the electric your borosilicate should be fine.

When I boil it makes the pinging sound through the boil.

 

[fuzzy2133]

There can be (often is) a popping or pinging sound produced by sudden vaporization of water at localized hot spots. It is a phenomenon that occurs when boiling in glass. I think it has something to do with the glass being a weak insulator, I don't remember the physics explanation. Lab supplies actually sell glass beads that you put in the vessel to stop this from happening, but are not necessary and not recommended for starters. You don't want to be filtering out beads while pitching.

Could this be the sound you are referring to?

If the crackling happens shortly before the boil I think this may be part of it. Often when heating liquid quickly, the bottom surface of the container will be hot enough to boil, but the whole volume of liquid is still too cold. When this happens, some of the bottom layer does boil but as soon as the bubble forms, the temperature causes the vapor to become liquid and the bubble violently collapses. This can be pretty noisy in a normal pan but I bet glass would really cause this to resonate.

And if the flask is on electric coils, you are likely hearing the coils expanding under the flask and scraping it, as someone mentioned earlier.

The whole reason we use borosilicate glass is because of its low thermal expansivity, so I would be surprised if the crackling was the sound of the flask itself changing shape.

Yes that is the sound, it starts at simmer and does not go away until the boiling stops. Open flame at a low setting probably 20-25min to reach boiling. Thanks makes me feel a little better that this is normal.

 

[ktblunden]

Interesting, I've never heard that with mine. My stir bar dances around while it boils, though.

 

[cjgenever]

I don't boil my plastic coated bars. I used to boil my glass bar before it met an untimely demise when it unexpectedly found another magnet and they smashed together

 

[IslandLizard]

Interesting, I've never heard that with mine. My stir bar dances around while it boils, though.

I don't boil my plastic coated bars. I used to boil my glass bar before it met an untimely demise when it unexpectedly found another magnet and they smashed together

Won't heating up magnets reduce their magnetism over time?

Why boil them?

 

[MrHopScotch]

Won't heating up magnets reduce their magnetism over time?



Why boil them?

In general, yes. Glass scientific stir bars are designed to spin liquids on hot stir plates while mixing chemicals, so although the magnetization concern isn't crazy, the bars are designed for this purpose and as such, I imagine that the demagnetization temperatures would be much higher than what one might see on a stir plate.

Why? Sanitizing the stir bar. Yes, you could sanitize it in starsan or something, but IMO it's easy to throw in the bar before the boil and leave it there.

 

[cjgenever]

Major demagnetization occurs at 250°f if I remember right. 212° doesn't effect them much

 

[Jayjay1976]

I have some experience in glass manufacturing, there are several grades of borosilicate. The higher the grade, the lower the coefficient of thermal expansion. The boro material itself can also vary from batch to batch, both in composition and in final quality. This is why some brands cost more than others; higher purity raw materials, precision batch mixing, melt quality control, as well as scrapping or reprocessing rejected lots of ware or batches of glass. Its also why there is a lot of "student grade" glassware on the market, they don't meet first-quality lab grade standards and it makes more sense financially to sell it as such rather than scrap it.

The top-grade stuff is really expensive but it is also nearly immune to thermal downshock. When it comes to glassware, you really do get what you pay for. Word to the wise, avoid generics or bargains and buy name brand glass from a lab supply. I cringe every time I walk past the $50 no-name flasks sold at my LHBS. I like Pyrex but Carter would be my second choice.

 

[Vale71]

You must be really bored if you're digging up six year old threads...
Personally, I wouldn't freeze any liquid in a container that is not made of flexible plastic and has a cylindrical shape that allows for plenty of expansion. Even the most expensive labware will crack if subjected to the pressure of expanding ice.

 

[Jayjay1976]

You must be really bored if you're digging up six year old threads...
Personally, I wouldn't freeze any liquid in a container that is not made of flexible plastic and has a cylindrical shape that allows for plenty of expansion. Even the most expensive labware will crack if subjected to the pressure of expanding ice.

Haha, you got me. This thread showed up at the bottom of the screen under "Similar threads" so I read it and thought I should contribute what information I have for posterity. This thread may be old but it ain't dead, and the information contained is still relevant, applicable and useful for new site members.

I might add that although my comments weren't exactly aligned with the thread title, they were tangential to some of the most recent discussion about safety when boiling starters in borosilicate flasks.

 

[IslandLizard]

You must be really bored if you're digging up six year old threads...

I'm quite sure the Similar Threads list on the bottom of each thread page brought this on.

Look at the first item in the list on this page:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/freeze-your-wort.684712/#post-8978314It sends you here!

 

[passedpawn]

I have some experience in glass manufacturing, there are several grades of borosilicate. The higher the grade, the lower the coefficient of thermal expansion. The boro material itself can also vary from batch to batch, both in composition and in final quality. This is why some brands cost more than others; higher purity raw materials, precision batch mixing, melt quality control, as well as scrapping or reprocessing rejected lots of ware or batches of glass. Its also why there is a lot of "student grade" glassware on the market, they don't meet first-quality lab grade standards and it makes more sense financially to sell it as such rather than scrap it.

The top-grade stuff is really expensive but it is also nearly immune to thermal downshock. When it comes to glassware, you really do get what you pay for. Word to the wise, avoid generics or bargains and buy name brand glass from a lab supply. I cringe every time I walk past the $50 no-name flasks sold at my LHBS. I like Pyrex but Carter would be my second choice.

Thermal shock has to do with expansion of the glass at different temperatures. That's not what killed the flask in the OP. That was due to the water expanding 9% at freezing. Unless your fancy borosilicate can stretch, it's not going to matter

Materials get more dense as they get colder. If it wasn't for this phenomenon, water suddenly getting less dense near its freezing point, there would be no life on earth as the lakes would have frozen from the bottom up, killing most life in them.

[edit] ... and now I see I'm beating a dead horse here.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Thermal shock has to do with expansion of the glass at different temperatures. That's not what killed the flask in the OP. That was due to the water expanding 9% at freezing. Unless your fancy borosilicate can stretch, it's not going to matter

Materials get more dense as they get colder. If it wasn't for this phenomenon, water suddenly getting less dense near its freezing point, there would be no life on earth as the lakes would have frozen from the bottom up, killing most life in them.

[edit] ... and now I see I'm beating a dead horse here.