WLP644 cell count, starter confusion!

[PissyFingers]

So im wanting to try this strain in my next IPA but having trouble making a starter calculator work.
I email Whitelabs and asked them for a cell count in 1 vial of 644, response..

info white labs
2:46 PM (4 hours ago)

to me
Hello,

That strain has 50-80 million cells per ml.

Cheers,

White Labs, Inc.
Sales/Customer Service
888-593-2785
www.whitelabs.com
www.yeastman.com

So each vial is 35mls so i picked the middle ground to start with,
65m per ml x 35ml vial = 2.275billion per vial depending on production date.

So when i enter that into a calc the inoculation rate is 1, its says keep it between 25 and 100, what am i doing wrong?

Or is the calc ok, sorry this lower cell count is doing my head in, i usually use 001, 090 or 585

 

[HopHeavy]

Initial population numbers are wrong. Your yeast certainly wasn't packaged today. But I doubt the vial only has 2.2 billion at packaging anyway. ( I figure 60-100 B for packaging date, depending on the producer.) Your initial cell count is terribly low for a brand new vial of yeast. Check that number.

 

[Brew-Dog]

I've heard that their Brett strains only have about 3B cells per vile at production date. So, I think your estimate is actually pretty close. The crappy thing is that since it was discovered that WLP644 wasn't actually Brett, and is Sacch, they haven't upped the cell count to match their regular Sacch amount per vile (100B cells).

I just brewed an IPA with this as the only strain. I estimated that the initial cell count was 2B cells. Made a 500ml starter, then added another 1.5L about four days later (because I wanted to harvest 50 mls from the starter). It's about to get kegged and smells/tastes awesome. Super tropical.

 

[PissyFingers]

I've heard that their Brett strains only have about 3B cells per vile at production date. So, I think your estimate is actually pretty close. The crappy thing is that since it was discovered that WLP644 wasn't actually Brett, and is Sacch, they haven't upped the cell count to match their regular Sacch amount per vile (100B cells).

I just brewed an IPA with this as the only strain. I estimated that the initial cell count was 2B cells. Made a 500ml starter, then added another 1.5L about four days later (because I wanted to harvest 50 mls from the starter). It's about to get kegged and smells/tastes awesome. Super tropical.

yeah it still has the Brett number of cells, that quote in my post was direct from whitelabs. I would like to make a starter that i can over build by 100billion cells so i can harvest 500ml from it for the next batch, i have a 5L flask but im not sure thats possible given the low starting cell count being around 2.5 billion.

 

[PissyFingers]

Initial population numbers are wrong. Your yeast certainly wasn't packaged today. But I doubt the vial only has 2.2 billion at packaging anyway. ( I figure 60-100 B for packaging date, depending on the producer.) Your initial cell count is terribly low for a brand new vial of yeast. Check that number.

Thanks for the reply, this strain is still released with the Brett cell count per vial even though its been reclassified as a Sacc strain. The quote in my first post was direct from whitelabs so im guessing the number they gave me is correct.

 

[ptownbmac]

+1 on having the right cell count. 3B at packaging for 644. I did a 600 ml first step starter and then into a 3L starter, then pitched into 5 gal batch at 1.070 and worked great.

On your calc, are you maybe using pitch rate and inoculation rate interchangeably when they aren't the same? I'd guess innoculation rate would be the number that White labs sent you 50-80 mil cells/mL, where as a pitch rate of 1 mil/ml would be normal, you have that set at 0.75 mil per ml in the top left.

 

[HopHeavy]

My apologies. My error. I must admit, I haven't used 644 myself and was just going by my general best practices... I didn't recognize the former status of the strain. Anyone know why the cell density is so much different?

 

[ptownbmac]

Like Brew Dog mentioned, up until last year that strain was thought to be brettanomyces, which usually has 3B cells because its intended to be used for long term aging/souring after primary fermentation is complete and not typically used as a primary strain. They found out its actually saccharomyces, but still a wild strain that behaves more like brett than sacch, and they haven't changed the cell counts in the vials.

 

[Blurryface]

If you can get it go with Imperial Organic yeast. Their A20 Juicy is the equivalent of 644 and they are packaged with 200B cells, no starter. I had great success with it.

 

[PissyFingers]

If you can get it go with Imperial Organic yeast. Their A20 Juicy is the equivalent of 644 and they are packaged with 200B cells, no starter. I had great success with it.

Now that sounds bloody good! I HATE mucking around with multiply set starters, thats why i bought a 5000ml flask.
Only problem is i live in New Zealand so ordering from them is not an option unfortunately