Winery owner wants to expand into cider

[crashncam400]

My father in-law owns a winery, he is looking to expand into cider as a "quicker" turn around product compared to wine. he recieved a small hydraulic apple press recently as a gift, and with the winery equipment there would be very little additional overhead. He has asked me to do most of the research and development on this project. His idea is to make cider from concentrate, he has been renting some equipment to a local brewery that has been doing this on his property for a while. Personally I am against this idea, i want to do this right. He likes the consistency, year round availability and simplicity of going with concentrate. my goal is to change his mind and keep things fresh.

Here are a few things i am hoping you guys and gals might be able to help me with. First is i was hoping someone might know of a chart to identify apple types by the flavors the impart. i use beersmith a lot for recipe development in beer, and love the descriptions involved in the program, definitely helpful. if it isnt out there i can start making one i was just hoping to save some time.
Also i am curious about availability of fresh apples on the scale we intend to use on a year round basis. My guess at this point is that we would begin by making 500 gallon batches. I understand the bulk produce buying business and how our produce is moved around from different growing areas, not exactly sure how this works with apples and if i will have to plan to make enough cider while apples are fresh to last to the next season? or if apples can be found year around?
I have read about apple varieties and understand that the Cider varieties are largely unavailable due to shortage of trees and increasing demand. are most cidery's using dessert varieties for their products? or have they mostly contracted the cider trees for themselves?

My father inlaw has an orchard on one of his properties that has been left untouched for a long time. he recently had the trees pruned but we still dont know what kinds they are, any advice on how to figure out what we have?

I know Cider is much different than making beer and wine, and believe me i understand we are far from putting anything into bulk batches. i intend to take whatever info i can gather here, make LOTS of small batches and use my experience and the winemakers experience to create something good.

thank you for the help
-Cameron

 

[bernardsmith]

You might want to read published books on cider making. One of the recognized experts in North America is Claude Joulicoeur - He recently wrote The New Cider Maker's Handbook, (published by Chelsea Green) - that book is good for home cider makers and professionals. But that said, not clear what the value of a press might be if your father-in-law is planning on using "concentrate" to make his cider. Andrew Lea (a major British cider maker) reports that concentrates often contain all kinds of bacteria that are both incredibly difficult to control and which can result in spoilage in commercial cider-making but hey! yer pays yer money and yer takes yer chance

 

[Yooper]

Cider is not at all 'much different' than wine. It IS wine, made out of cider apples' juice. Instead of grapes, you use apples. It's exactly like wine.

The only differences would be in the brix readings (apples will be much lower than wine grapes) and apples are higher in malic acid than grapes as a rule.

You can still do MLF on apple wine (cider) if you want to, and do acid adjustments. You can do dry, sweet, semi-sec, still, sparkling, etc, just like with wine.

 

[crashncam400]

You might want to read published books on cider making. One of the recognized experts in North America is Claude Joulicoeur - He recently wrote The New Cider Maker's Handbook, (published by Chelsea Green) - that book is good for home cider makers and professionals. But that said, not clear what the value of a press might be if your father-in-law is planning on using "concentrate" to make his cider. Andrew Lea (a major British cider maker) reports that concentrates often contain all kinds of bacteria that are both incredibly difficult to control and which can result in spoilage in commercial cider-making but hey! yer pays yer money and yer takes yer chance

We have started reading a book, sadly I skipped the title and got right to the material but that sounds like the one we picked up. I hadn't thought about contaminated concentrates so I thank you for bringing that to my attention. And yes, while the boss man will be funding the project I am growing less interested in making the cider any other way than with fresh apples.

 

[david_42]

Call your local university's ag department; check continuing education for a home orchard society. My local HOS has a identification fair every year. Turns out the old tree on my property is a totally worthless apple type, not good eating, not good for juice, not good for cider. The elk love them though.

 

[WVMJ]

Where are you located? If you are out in the dessert you might have a hard time finding apples! Apples in the north are different than the ones in the south. You seem to have taken this path of just using fresh apples without knowing even why its better yet. A small press, like a home vinyard style press is going to take a lot of work to get 500 gallons, and how are you going to crush your apples before you press them? You will have a hard time finding the "proper" English and French cider apples wherever you are as a lot of craft cideries are buying up all the apples as fast as they are planted here in the USA. WVMJ

 

[crashncam400]

We are located in Oregon, along I-5. I want to go with fresh apples from a marketing stand point and also because when i was extract brewing i was a bit disappointed in the variety available. i have also considered doing a hybrid of concentrate and fresh apples to give myself more ingredient options but at that point i may as well go all fresh.The press we have is a back yard custom press but it was made by a few sets of good hands. It has a hopper and a crusher/grinder of some sort before the press and was used by a local farm for their farmhouse cider for many years before we got it.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

To make real cider, you must use real cider apples; If you can't source the fruit, start planting. It's the apple cultivars & the blending that really makes a great cider. At the very least, get the existing cultivars identified, county extension should be able to do so & they're free. Maybe you'll get lucky & there will be a couple of cider type cultivars already there.
Regards, GF.

 

[madscientist451]

If you are in Oregon, you should be able to get all the apples you want, and get them cheap. You're not going to get "cider" apples right now, but you can make decent cider with regular orchard apples if you find the right orchard.
Start hunting around a 100 mile circle of where you are located, see if you can find any older established orchards and approach them asking if you can buy seconds (basically their rejects). Run a bunch of test batches this fall with different apple varieties and yeasts with the apples you can find.
My experience is the late ripening varieties that are allowed to fully ripen on the tree produce the best cider flavor.

 

[MindenMan]

I agree with the above post, your County Extension Office should be able to tell you what varieties you have in the "old orchard". There are a few cideries doing single varietal hard ciders with great reviews. There is no "perfect" blend of apples to make hard cider with, so I would wait until harvest time to see what your "old" orchard has to offer. Please keep us posted, good luck.

 

[WVMJ]

One alternative is to use the dessert and processing apples that are available and plant some bittersweets and bittersharps to blend in with. There are also good American apples to make cider from, Stayman is a popular single variety. If your own apples turn out to be something that wont do well in cider you can topwork the limbs into another variety. It seems like you guys would only be able to do small batches, but that is how most good craft cideries get started. Extension agents can really vary as to how much help they can give, if you notice most of the publications they have are OLD, they all share the same documents which is crazy seeing how varied the climate is from each region of the country, and some are more into promoting grains than fruit. Your local extension people may be great or clueless, better help may come from finding an actual cidery near you, those guys usually like to share and help each other out and they could tell you what trees, especially the European trees that they planted and then had to pull out because of to many problems. Post of pic of your press and scratter, if everything is all wood is it legal to use to make cider in your state is another good question to get answered. WVMJ

 

[crashncam400]

Your all getting me excited for harvest time. I have some beer fermenting out at his place, I'll see if I can get some pics of the apple press. I would also like to see the orchard now that it's been pruned.

 

[crashncam400]

I went to the orchard today. There are about 45 trees. All very old growth. The grass and brush was a little overwhelming so I didn't spend a lot of time there. Some apples are just starting to grow, most are about the size of grapes at the moment. Too early to start identifying. I also went up to the winery to look at the tanks. The one currently used for cider has 500 gallons in it, glycol jacketed and cooled to 32F. There are also 2 320 gallon jacketed tanks available and a number of not jacketed 550gallon stainless tanks. I went to the barn and looked at the crusher/press. It has a centrifugal shredder on it, looks clean and ready to go. It has the racks but not the form, I'll measure that up and have one made when I get closer. Stainless bottom that drains out the bottom. Just waiting for the apples to grow so I can get them ID'd

 

[WVMJ]

Have you joined the North American Fruit Explorers club yet? They really get off on ID apples You might want to get that orchard mowed so you can take a close look at the health of the trees and see if they are overun by aphids, got cankers or a lot of scab etc. WVMJ

 

[gratus fermentatio]

If the orchard is that old & neglected, those trees will likely be in serious need of pruning. Properly pruned trees produce bigger, juicier fruit. And I agree, mow that grass & brush, and prune back any suckers. Don't forget the pruning paint.
http://extension.oregonstate.edu/gardening/node/954
Good luck!
Regards, GF.

 

[WVMJ]

Pruning paint is OUT, ait is better to heal according to any publication in the past 20 years WVMJ

 

[crashncam400]

Thanks for the tip on the fruit explorers I will join them. I'll have him mow before I go out again, and I'll get a better look at each tree. With as little fruit as there is on the trees now, are there some signs I should be looking for to tell me about the health of the trees?

 

[WVMJ]

Take some pictures of the leaves and look for any nasty places on the branches, make sure to take pics of the fruits, why is there just a little fruit on the trees? How are you guys going to make cider? It can take several years of pruning to bring a tree back into some kind of decent shape, if you take to much off at once you can shock it into sending out millions of suckers. Maybe readup a little on rejuvinating older or neglected trees. Is there open areas to plant more trees? WVMJ

 

[crashncam400]

there is fruit on the trees but what is there is very small, about the size of grapes. ill get back out there and take some pictures and get a better look. I believe there is room at that same property for about double the trees but he has a few hundred acres so im sure if we wanted more trees we could have them. I met a guy over the weekend a few hours from me with a few known cider varieties, who isnt doing anything with his fruit or his trees, so we could get his fruit and later get some scion wood from him to top work some trees if needed.

 

[MindenMan]

Sounds like a winner in the wings! Room to plant more trees, and access to apples only a few hours away. Good things come to those who wait (and those who are willing to do whatever it takes), good luck.