Wine: kits Vs. scratch

[strantor]

Which do you all prefer?

I like to save as much money as possible, and I also like to be as involved in the process as possible. Kits sort of feel like "cheating" to me. I'm not sure if that's logical or not, but I don't really care. To me, opening up a box and dumping the contents into a bucket sort of seems like opening up a bottle and dumping the contents into a glass.

I haven't done much cost comparison between kits and fruits, but I suspect it may actually be cheaper to go with a kit. I had this epiphany when I was going to make hard cider. I looked at buying apples Vs. buying bottled cider, and the cider was much cheaper. So in that instance, it made more sense to "cheat" and buy the cider.

When cost effective, I would like to choose to make wine from scratch, but what other factors might I be neglecting in choosing between kits and fruits? What else makes buying a kit the more attractive option, not including the "ease of use" aspect, which I really don't care about?

 

[Psych]

Kits I would wager are faster, if it's a 'fast kit', than going from fruit. And maybe less chance to muck up sanitation.

I've only done kits for wine, never from fruit, but there's likely more personal satisfaction from going from fruit, for sure.

 

[Bluespark]

I'm in agreement with the "kits are cheating" statement, with a few exceptions. I'm very commited to making everything from scratch, from cooking and baking to brewing.

However, I don't think using pressed fresh apple cider is cheating. I don't have a press, and that's not an investment I can justify. Grinding and pressing apples by hand, using my food processor, to make 5 gallons of juice, is ridiculous.

Also, if I wanted to make a really good grape wine, which involved investing a significant amount of money in great grapes, I would want to use the advice and knowledge of people who know more than I to make the best product possible. I think a kit in this case would be better than accidentally ruining $200 worth of grapes.

 

[UncleWhomper]

I wouldn't call buying fresh pressed cider a "cheat" or a kit. By that logic, buying honey to make mead is A "cheat" as well. There's still a lot of work you must put in to get your finished product. Pressing apples is a very time consuming project and unless you grow your own I wouldn't recommend it. I belive its a bushel of apples makes a gallon of cider (don't quote me, but its a lot of apples to make a gallon). But if you want to really feel it out from scratch try cherries or berries of some sort and macerate them. Find a nice farmers market. And go to town! Just remember your pectic enzyme and you'll be stoaked on your end result! I'm in Boston so ill go hit up the market on the weekends at Haymarket down near fanuiel hall. I scored bing cherries at 1.50 a pound! Super cheap! Here's a recipe that I just finished. Macerate cherries with stems and seeds with sugar. Pasteurize honey in water and dump over cherries after maceration is complete. Use one galling of honey water mixture for your hop schedule. Ferment everything together for a week then rack and remove solids! Easy peasy!
Cherryhop wine
12# cherries
2# sugar
3#honey
1 3/4 gal water
1 tea spoon pectic enzyme
1 tea spoon tannin
2 oz cascade hop pellets (15minute boil, 15 minute steep)
1 pkg champagne yeast
1 table spoon nutrient

Begin SG: 1.102

Racked after 8 days and placed back to complete business.

Racked and sorbate at 50 days... Pretty clear already. Hydro reading is pretty spot on where I though the abv would be.

Bottled 4 days after last rack.
1 tea sp ascorbic acid

Ended up at 1.000 final gravity
(Just over 13%)

 

[UncleWhomper]

P.S. I never sulphite, I find it makes my end product not taste as clean or crisp as I would like. But hey, that's just me.

 

[saramc]

The kit vs scratch debate is about as old as glass vs better bottle. It boils down to do what works for you. Not everyone has access to raw ingredients and even when they do it may not be within their price range nor their experience level.

 

[Inner10]

My best and worst wines have been from fruit...but kits consistently provide a good product with little room for error.

I wouldn't call it cheating...just like I wouldn't call it cheating if you didn't grow your own grapes.

 

[KevinM]

Kits have the prebalanced, mostly consistent thing going for them. Your 2011 kit should be like my 2011 kit of the same brand/wine. 2012 could be different than 2011, sure, but both of our 2012 should come out the same.

Fruit is interesting, and fun, but its hard due to price and equipment, figuring quality of the fruit, as well as alot of qualitative aspects that affect the end product. Tannins, acid additions, terrior and so on. That's not to say you can't just squish it all, ferment it and have something drinkable, it just becomes kind of random chance.

I do kits for the most part, but occasionally do fruit when I can afford to, since I want to learn and take classes. The only thing better I can think of would be to go learn at a winery or vineyard/winery.

 

[strantor]

The kit vs scratch debate is about as old as glass vs better bottle. It boils down to do what works for you.

Being new on the scene, I wasn't aware that this was already a point of discussion. Now That you've said it though, it seems obvious that it would be one of the top 10 most discussed things in making wine.

More epiphanies where that one came from.

 

[Yooper]

A couple of things to consider.

Making wine "from scratch" can be very difficult. First, getting good quality wine grapes is impossible in some areas. Next, trying to learn about acids and pH and things, and then fermenting and crushing the grapes. (Not many new vintners have a wine press sitting around). Then, sulfiting, the MLF part and so on.

So, is making a "malbec" kit, for example, cheating? Well, maybe. But unless you can get good argentinian malbec grapes delivered and have the know-how to work with the acid balance and pH and ferment and then press- the kit may be "good enough" for many.

Country wines, those made from fruit other than wine grapes, can be excellent or terrible, and any point in between. It doesn't take much to make wine- but it can be a life long stuggle to make good wine!

The worst wine I've ever had was homemade wine, by someone who thought it was quite good. I guess it depends on your expectations, as well as your ability.

 

[WVMJ]

If you think making a kit is cheating then you may instead get a kit and change something to make it better. I like to take port kits and add things like lots of dried elderberries to them, or black raspberry juice and more oak. Unless you grow it all yourself its cheating to pay someone else to grow it, pick it, sqeeze the juice out etc they way you are thinking. But taking a kit and improving on it makes it yours. WVMJ

 

[UncleWhomper]

It's not cheating at all no matter what. The whole point of this hobby is to have fun and produce a product that you're proud of and can get drink off. Weather it be from a kit, fresh pressed liquids from farms, or home grown ingredients. What ever works for you. Ya dig? .... P.S. don't use my recipes, that's cheating! Lol

 

[strantor]

If you think making a kit is cheating then you may instead get a kit and change something to make it better. I like to take port kits and add things like lots of dried elderberries to them, or black raspberry juice and more oak. Unless you grow it all yourself its cheating to pay someone else to grow it, pick it, sqeeze the juice out etc they way you are thinking. But taking a kit and improving on it makes it yours. WVMJ

You know, I've been reading everybody's comments and digesting them, along with my own thoughts. Your comment here is pretty much my conclusion.

Would it make me feel better about my wine if I flew to France and picked the grapes by hand? Probably not. Would I feel better if I grew the grapes in my own back yard? probably, but I don't have the proper climate to do that. So, I'm left with buying grapes at a supermarket at minimum, which is technically "cheating" by the strictest interpretation of my logic. I can't do anything but settle for some level of "cheating." So it's up to me to draw a line somewhere, and previously I drew it at the kit. Now I'm thinking critically; what do I really want? Well, what I really want is for my wines to be mine. I can still work with a kit and add my own flair to it. I've made beers from a kit, but I didn't follow the instructions to a "T." I did it my own way, and I liked them more because of it. So I think that's what I'll do. If I find that going with a kit is more cost effective, I'll do the kit, but do something different.

 

[ReefKeeper]

Kits are much faster and hard to mess up, but if you have the knowledge and time frozen must or grapes will produce MUCH better wines. I find red kit wines to finish thin and they also have a distinct taste that I can't get over. I've added finishing tannins and oak to kits and they were never more than mediocre. The one kit I did enjoy was a Riesling-Gewurztraminer blend. It had great acidity and a lovely nose. Unfortunately, white wine kits do not age well, and I had to dump the remainder of the wine after about 6 months.

If kits are all you have access to, by all means, enjoy them. If you can get your hands on frozen must or fresh grapes, it's well worth doing some studying and trying to make a decent wine that you can really be proud of.

 

[saramc]

You know, I've been reading everybody's comments and digesting them, along with my own thoughts. Your comment here is pretty much my conclusion. Would I feel better if I grew the grapes in my own back yard? probably, but I don't have the proper climate to do that. So, I'm left with buying grapes at a supermarket at minimum, which is technically "cheating" .

Strantor...caution buying grapes from grocery, most are table grapes. You may find concord or muscadine but at outrageous prices cobsidering you need 70-85# per 5 gallon batch. But, you can always buy a few pounds to add tweaks to kits. Then there are raisins, good old fashioned sulfite free Sunmaid dark or golden, plus nuts.com offers a great variety. You can always buy frozen fruits during the off season, and actually those are fabulous options because they are frozen at the peak of ripeness many times right on the field. Frozen concentrates, shelf stable juices all allow you to make wine YOUR way. The best site for a wide variety of wine concentrates is www.homewinery.com and you can buy a concentrate to make one gallon, tweak a batch or make 5 gallons. The bottom line is kit or no, you are crafting your wine and it is not something that everyone does. We are a unique set of people and we seem to get along well. I have NEVER met a winemaker, commercial or amateur, not take the time to talk and LISTEN to a fellow vintner; that is rare, especially on commercial side, they actually tend to be very supportive of one another. We are glad you are here with us!!

 

[WilliamSlayer]

If you think making a kit is cheating then you may instead get a kit and change something to make it better. I like to take port kits and add things like lots of dried elderberries to them, or black raspberry juice and more oak. Unless you grow it all yourself its cheating to pay someone else to grow it, pick it, sqeeze the juice out etc they way you are thinking. But taking a kit and improving on it makes it yours. WVMJ

+1
I must say that doing kits is Fun. You have to Work to make that wine. I frequently change things about my kits, to personalize them (different yeast, chaptalise, acid additions, etc.), and so I can claim it's MY wine. Just the same way a good steak is mine too, though I didn't raise the cow!

 

[WilliamSlayer]

Strantor...caution buying grapes from grocery, most are table grapes. You may find concord or muscadine but at outrageous prices cobsidering you need 70-85# per 5 gallon batch. But, you can always buy a few pounds to add tweaks to kits. Then there are raisins, good old fashioned sulfite free Sunmaid dark or golden, plus nuts.com offers a great variety. You can always buy frozen fruits during the off season, and actually those are fabulous options because they are frozen at the peak of ripeness many times right on the field. Frozen concentrates, shelf stable juices all allow you to make wine YOUR way. The best site for a wide variety of wine concentrates is www.homewinery.com and you can buy a concentrate to make one gallon, tweak a batch or make 5 gallons. The bottom line is kit or no, you are crafting your wine and it is not something that everyone does. We are a unique set of people and we seem to get along well. I have NEVER met a winemaker, commercial or amateur, not take the time to talk and LISTEN to a fellow vintner; that is rare, especially on commercial side, they actually tend to be very supportive of one another. We are glad you are here with us!!

Well said.

 

[ReefKeeper]

To everyone that thinks not using estate grown grapes is cheating, many a commercial winery contract outside vineyards to grow grapes for them. A lot of wineries also buy bulk juice from growers (must stores better once it's pressed) and make wine from that, and more than a few commercial wineries also use concentrates to some degree. Some wineries will even buy bulk wine made at another winery and put it in their own package and labeling to resell. Just because you didn't grow, harvest, and crush the grapes yourself doesn't make it cheating at all.

Saramc couldn't be any more correct about people in the wine industry liking to talk about wine. I called a tank manufacturer yesterday to get some pricing on a some fermenters and variable capacity tanks. He ended up talking to me for about 25 minutes about his start up winery, trellising systems, and the water tables in Mendencino and surrounding AVAs. I think we spent at most, 5 minutes discussing the tanks I was inquiring about. People in the industry are every bit as passionate as you are and most enjoy waxing intellectual on wine with whomever they think will listen. So ask any question that comes to mind and listen. You will receive answers to questions you hadn't even thought to ask yet.

 

[DoctorCAD]

It seems to me like those that complain about kit wines are those thst can't keep from f***ing with them.

I have yet to make a kit wine that sucked, when I followed the directions (except time, I always go long on time).

Yea, I make kit wines...you got a problem with that?

 

[Heavywalker]

I've made everything... kits, frozen concentrate, frozen fruit, fresh fruit, fresh grapes, etc... I've picked the fruit myself, I've picked the grapes myself, I've bought the fruit or grapes, and I've had them given too me. I've been given juice from my friends at some local wineries as a gift for helping them.

What I can tell each and everyone of the holier than thou types is that each and every one of the wines thus far has made me act a little less intelligent while drinking it, and a little less chipper the morning after.

Y'all need to lighten up and drink more.

 

[strantor]

It seems to me like those that complain about kit wines are those thst can't keep from f***ing with them.

I have yet to make a kit wine that sucked, when I followed the directions (except time, I always go long on time).

Yea, I make kit wines...you got a problem with that?

I don't have any problems. I've never made a kit wine, therefore I've never f**ked with one and ive never f**ked one up. I've made beers from kits, and beers from grains. I'm New to making wine. I've always taken great liberties on the instructions to the beer kits and always made good beers. This is now carrying over to my wine making, and just getting into it, it felt like going to a kit would be a step backward. But, I've gotten past that psychologically, If you'll note my previous posts. Your post seems like an attempt to instigate a personal argument. I will not be baited.

 

[DoctorCAD]

I don't have any problems. I've never made a kit wine, therefore I've never f**ked with one and ive never f**ked one up. I've made beers from kits, and beers from grains. I'm New to making wine. I've always taken great liberties on the instructions to the beer kits and always made good beers. This is now carrying over to my wine making, and just getting into it, it felt like going to a kit would be a step backward. But, I've gotten past that psychologically, If you'll note my previous posts. Your post seems like an attempt to instigate a personal argument. I will not be baited.

Nothing personal, just my observstions.