will cereal mashing add more dry feel?

[Blarneybrew]

I'm assuming simply that when you cereal mash you make a more easily fermentable product, thus giving you a tool to add some more dryness to your brew. Is this true or can it be true? I'm guessing perhaps not because you will still pass through the wet/sweet phase of mashing

 

[pelipen]

I'm assuming simply that when you cereal mash you make a more easily fermentable product, thus giving you a tool to add some more dryness to your brew. Is this true or can it be true? I'm guessing perhaps not because you will still pass through the wet/sweet phase of mashing

A cereal mash is a process for gelatinizing cereal grains which have not been malted. It allows enzymes to convert starches. Dryness would depend on the grain or adjunct and temperatures, the same as any mash I would imagine.

 

[Blarneybrew]

I'm kind of hijacking the term cereal mash. I want to boil off some base grains to add whatever enhancements they may impart to the main mash.

I'd rest(s) and boil 10% of the bill, put it to the side, and then after 60 min or so (once I've heated my main mash water and done my protein rest) add it as I'm about to raise to saccrification or how you spell. It wouldn't be a true decoction as I'm not intent on using the 10% to raise the temp of the main.

Tannins aside (if thats even a factor for 10% of 2 row) If I take that 10% through the low end of alpha and beta and then boil it for 10-20 minutes what's most likely the result when I then add that to my main mash after its protein rest?

 

[Pie_Man]

The process you describe is basically a single decoction mash. More info here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing

It probably will increase fermentability, at least somewhat, although there are easier ways to obtain dryness. Decoction mashing is know for adding a nice malty character to the beer, similar to melanoidin malt.

 

[Blarneybrew]

What are some easier ways to obtain dryness? I don't really want to add sugar or dextrose or honey to my beer. What if you were trying to make a true pilsner? Not that I am trying to, but there are ingredient limitations on some pilsners. How do you go about that?

 

[EarlyAmateurZymurgist]

If you want to add dryness to your beers, add a percentage of flaked maize or gelatinized corn grits to your grist. Corn converts to monosaccharides and disaccharides in the mash; therefore, its contribution is completely fermentable. On the other hand, pulling a thick decoction, slowly raising it through conversion temperature band, and bringing it to a boil will result in caramelization, which is the opposite of what you want to achieve.

 

[Pie_Man]

What are some easier ways to obtain dryness? I don't really want to add sugar or dextrose or honey to my beer. What if you were trying to make a true pilsner? Not that I am trying to, but there are ingredient limitations on some pilsners. How do you go about that?

The decoction method usually produces good fermentability, but as mentioned by myself and others, it adds maltiness and some caramelization. So, while the FG may be lower from an increase in fermentability, the flavor will be more on the sweet side from the caramelization and maltiness.

In my pilsner, which finishes fairly dry, I use a light body, single infusion mash at 148F and extend the mash duration for 90 minutes. Controlling pH probably also factors into fermentability and the dryness of the finished beer, but I haven't experimented much with that variable. If you keep the grain bill clean (no caramel type malts), firmly bitter the beer, and let the lager yeast do their job, you should have a dry beer. I believe a firmly bitter beer adds to the perception of dryness and if you control for fermentation variables like pitching rate, temp, etc., the yeast should attenuate the beer properly.

 

[Blarneybrew]

Interesting. I've been doing step infusion lagers of late, but only now am working towards proper pH. The last lager I made using only spring water and two row came out so well that my friends think it's impossible I can do better. It should be interesting to see what RO water with some acidulated malt and very slight salt additions do.

You've given me a few insights on where else I can experiment. Thanks.

 

[pjj2ba]

If you want it dry (I'm assuming this means low FG) then mashing lower and longer will help (146-148 F for > 1 hr). Use 100% pilsner of pale malt, no Vienna, Munich and no crystal malts. Also pick a highly attenuating yeast. This will give you a dry beer - perhaps too dry. Try it and if too dry, then start to add in some other malts the next time

 

[Blarneybrew]

If you want it dry (I'm assuming this means low FG) then mashing lower and longer will help (146-148 F for > 1 hr). Use 100% pilsner of pale malt, no Vienna, Munich and no crystal malts. Also pick a highly attenuating yeast. This will give you a dry beer - perhaps too dry. Try it and if too dry, then start to add in some other malts the next time

Sweet. I'll giver a go. I have both wyermann pilsner and their bohemian pilsner malts

 

[Blarneybrew]

If you want it dry (I'm assuming this means low FG) then mashing lower and longer will help (146-148 F for > 1 hr). Use 100% pilsner of pale malt, no Vienna, Munich and no crystal malts. Also pick a highly attenuating yeast. This will give you a dry beer - perhaps too dry. Try it and if too dry, then start to add in some other malts the next time

Have you or have you read of anyone's experience of building a beer from the lowest viable mash temp? Using malts over temp to adjust mouth feel?

What other variables effecting mouth feel can you strip down to its lowest and build up? I guess pretty much everything will affect your senses won't they?

 

[pjj2ba]

Well the most basic would be sugar plus water plus yeast. After that either 100% base malt or base malt plus a percentage of adjuncts. I find corn adds a bit of sweetness, so I'd steer clear of that if you want really dry. Rice is a better choice for a dry beer. I think most base malts have enough enzymes to convert up to 30% adjuncts. I used rice syrup solids once in a beer (~20%) and that ended up quite dry. Rice syrup solids is mostly maltose (no conversion needed). Most commonly folks use flaked rice or minute rice (pre cooked).

And of course there are differences in base malts too that can affect the dryness

 

[Blarneybrew]

So if I take my base malt and mash low and long and then put it through a boil (either to boil, short boil, long (30min) boil), and then add it to my main mash which is also a low temp mash, would I (arguably) come out with a more dry beer than had I done the same thing without the cereal style of addition?

Pardon me, but I haven't had a desktop running for some time and I'm having a difficult time reading more than a few paragraphs on this tiny screen. So thanks for your patience and input. The interaction is a lot more enjoyable than reading articles.

I've played around with corn grits and the results were interesting. Eventually I'll give rice a try, but I'm not in a great hurry, unless I can ramp up my batch production. I've got another 300lbs of pilsner malt that I should use up before 2015, lol

 

[pelipen]

If I were you, I would start with 100% pils malt which you have tons of, soft water, and any adjustments to keep pH sane. Mash in really low, around 130-135 for 20 minutes. Then do an infusion step up to 144 +/- for 40-60, followed by an infusion step up to 158-160 for 20-30 and check for conversion. That should be a highly fermentable wort. Combined with a high attenuation yeast, should be pretty dry.
From there, swap out some pils with flaked rice and see if you like it better.
If you do a cereal mash with a portion of the main mash, I think you'll start contributing some malt profile from essentially a decoction step, which I think is a good thing, but you may not want.