Alright Bob I have read through about half of this thread and my head hurts now because it is so long. Thus, I don't want to go back through and find the answer to the question I know have. Sounds like you know a lot about this stuff so I wanted to clarify that if I make a starter from a fresh vial of whitelabs or wyeast that 238ml of slurry would be an estimate for an appropriate amount for a 1.048 OG beer? Or is the 238ml number for unwashed yeast that is only 25% viable yeast which would mean you only would need a fourth of the 238ml from a fresh vial?
Why Not to Pitch On Your Yeast Cake
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broadbill
Well-Known Member
I'll take a stab at this:
I don't think I would worry about slurry amounts if I were starting from a fresh vial/smack pack. Use Mr. Malty to make the appropriate sized starter and pitch that (or crash cool and pitch whatever is left after pouring off the liquid).
Slurry amounts is for figuring out how much of a yeast cake to pitch (i.e. what is left over at the bottom of a fermenter after removing beer).
Hope this helps...
OP
OP
Bob
Well-Known Member
Close. When the starter is finished and crashed, the slurry at the bottom is still slurry; it's just more pure than what's in the bottom of the fermenter -there's infinitely less trub.
If you use the math to calculate your slurry amount with the slurry from a fresh starter, you'll possibly be overpitching, but not so much as I'd let it disturb my slumber. I don't have fresh-starer-slurry cell count numbers to back up an adjustment to the calculation, anyway. Anybody with a haemocytometer want to take that on?
Bob
If you use the math to calculate your slurry amount with the slurry from a fresh starter, you'll possibly be overpitching, but not so much as I'd let it disturb my slumber. I don't have fresh-starer-slurry cell count numbers to back up an adjustment to the calculation, anyway. Anybody with a haemocytometer want to take that on?
Bob
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
I think rather than an ideal pitching rate, a range would, in fact, be more accurate.
I am sure that different strains perform differently and have different ideal numbers.
If I ever get so worried about it that I start counting yeast, remind me that all the fun has gone out of brewing and to hang myself.
i am pretty sure that 1 cup of yeast is within 1 or 2 yeast cells of absolutely ideal.
I am sure that different strains perform differently and have different ideal numbers.
If I ever get so worried about it that I start counting yeast, remind me that all the fun has gone out of brewing and to hang myself.
i am pretty sure that 1 cup of yeast is within 1 or 2 yeast cells of absolutely ideal.
Ok...here's a wrench in this discussion...
So, I have a yeast cake...I'm not brewing that day, but I would like to save it again. I wash the cake, remove some of the trub and store it. So my question
Should I...
A) Create another starter, pitch the WASHED yeast and build another starter
B) Just pitch what was in the wash and let them go to work...
I would GUESS it would be to create another starter...the little yeasties have gone to sleep, been put in the cold for storage, etc, and need to be woken up....am i right? What size starter?
Jason
So, I have a yeast cake...I'm not brewing that day, but I would like to save it again. I wash the cake, remove some of the trub and store it. So my question
Should I...
A) Create another starter, pitch the WASHED yeast and build another starter
B) Just pitch what was in the wash and let them go to work...
I would GUESS it would be to create another starter...the little yeasties have gone to sleep, been put in the cold for storage, etc, and need to be woken up....am i right? What size starter?
Jason
Yes, make a starter. How large depends on the beer style, the batch size, how much slurry you collected, how long it was stored, etc..
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
If you save roughly a cup of yeast, a starter would be overpitching.
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
But that depends on how long (and how well) the yeast was stored. If it's a week or less I just pitch the slurry but if it's been more than a week I make a starter (but from a smaller amount of slurry than I would have pitched in a full batch). The yeast health is paramount.
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
Good response Spanish, but since Whitelabs liquid yeast is viable for 6 months, and dried yeast, several years, why is our yeast so feeble?
Sorry! I don't buy it.
Sorry! I don't buy it.
How does one "wash" yeast?"
(I'm picturing standing awkwardly at the kitchen sink with a soapy sponge in one hand, trying to scrub a handful of slurry in the other.... haha I'm sure it is much more scientific & sanitary than that)
(I'm picturing standing awkwardly at the kitchen sink with a soapy sponge in one hand, trying to scrub a handful of slurry in the other.... haha I'm sure it is much more scientific & sanitary than that)
How does one "wash" yeast?"
(I'm picturing standing awkwardly at the kitchen sink with a soapy sponge in one hand, trying to scrub a handful of slurry in the other.... haha I'm sure it is much more scientific & sanitary than that)
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-washing-illustrated-41768/
So I apologize for being lazy...but there is a "sticky" at the very top of Yeast and Fermentation that explains in MUCH better detail than I ever could
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
I can't provide a very good explanation of why that is (other than the 'manufacturers' prepare/package the yeast better than we do when we wash a cake) but my experience is that it is the case. In the past I've washed cakes and used them 12 hours later, a week later, two weeks later, you get the idea. Just based on the fermentations (at least one of which never took off) it does seem to be true. That's why I don't go over a week anymore.
The liquid yeast we get from the 'manufacturers' does in fact lose viability over time, just look at the viability numbers you get from the Yeast Pitch Calculator. Dry yeast is a whole 'nuther thing (illustrated by the fact that dry yeast doesn't really need aeration but liquid yeast does).
nutty_gnome
Well-Known Member
The reason is that the big boys package their yeast with the absolute fewest contaminants (bacteria) possible. As soon as we monkeys start mucking about with mason jars, questionable water, filthy hands, breathing, trub-sludge, and refrigerator detritus, bacteria gets into the process. Thats why it doesn't last as long; bacteria have entered the picture and are competing with the yeast. Over time, bacteria will eventually gain enough ground that if you pitch that slurry into a beer your beer will not taste like it should. Making a starter of older yeast not only 'rejuvinates' the yeast but it give you a chance to taste for off flavors.
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
That is why I don't wash, or do anything so silly as that.
My already sanitized and airlocked fermenter contains yeast just fine.
4 months has been my limit for saving yeast in my bucket..
The cake was all dried and cracked, so I pitched on the whole thing. Such a vigorous fermentation ensued, I wished I had removed at least half the cake.
It made great beer.
In contrast, 1 cake was left for 2 weeks and when I re-opened it , it had a vinegary smell that smacked of infection. DUMPED, dry yeast in the fridge, new cake for the next batch.
I've washed yeast, let it sit for almost a year and pitched it straight, no starter...lol. I only did it just to see how it would work and wouldn't recommend it as a standard brew procedure at all, but that beer won me first place in competition...
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
I have nothing against White labs or Wyeast, in fact I am grateful for their diligence in finding particular strains and making tghem available.........BUT...
As I have previously stated, there are no fairies, NASA scientists, or other mythical creatures employed by these companies.......
Bottom line? THERE IS NO MAGIC OR ROCKET SCIENCE INVOLVED.
Trub is OOOOOVERRATED and "fresh yeast" is also overrated.
How is yeast they created through fermentation and washing any different from yours, without any pixie dust from tinkerbell's ass?
scottlindner
Well-Known Member
I have nothing against White labs or Wyeast, in fact I am grateful for their diligence in finding particular strains and making tghem available.........BUT...
As I have previously stated, there are no fairies, NASA scientists, or other mythical creatures employed by these companies.......
Bottom line? THERE IS NO MAGIC OR ROCKET SCIENCE INVOLVED.
Trub is OOOOOVERRATED and "fresh yeast" is also overrated.
How is yeast they created through fermentation and washing any different from yours, without any pixie dust from tinkerbell's ass?
Trub may not be a fairy, but it is the boogeyman.
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
Actually trub is more "real" than the boogeyman, but it is not the destructor that ruins your beer, if the beer is left on it 1 second over 3 weeks that noobs think it is.
DakotaRules
Well-Known Member
Bob thank you for your time and thought that you have put into this and thank you everyone else that has contributed. It took a while to read through it all but it is all very informitive.
What I'm taking away from all this is that along with purifying water, calculating my grain and hops, I will take more time to calculate my yeast starter to a more precise amount.
What I'm taking away from all this is that along with purifying water, calculating my grain and hops, I will take more time to calculate my yeast starter to a more precise amount.
bajabrewer7
Well-Known Member
I second what Dakota said, was about to pour on a cake this weekend, not anymore thanks to Bob, will take a while to get a rhythm for calculations going, but once I do that, I expect my beer to be better..
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
1/4 of a yeast cake is working great for me.
I admire all the brewers with their calculators out and their stir plates, but a fresh cake, a measured amount (in cups, and yes, I eye ball it) is close enough for me, and I bet, once in a while, my pitching rate is more "ideal" than yours.
I admire all the brewers with their calculators out and their stir plates, but a fresh cake, a measured amount (in cups, and yes, I eye ball it) is close enough for me, and I bet, once in a while, my pitching rate is more "ideal" than yours.
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
LAST THING I WILL SAY.
If you all think that the ancient Germans who made such magical beer, had weekly shipments from white labs, you are smoking hops.
If you all think that the ancient Germans who made such magical beer, had weekly shipments from white labs, you are smoking hops.
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You're confusing ancient magical beer with what we consider to be "to style" beer today, which is heavily influenced by yeast strain and pitching rates; depending on style...
Ancient? Like 1860's?
Magical? Like Supernatural?
Magical? Like Supernatural?
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
Evidently, because I doubt if they had a time machine. So they used their magic to produce sparkling new yeast.
Lets not confuse brewing with containment and storage.
Even with your fresh yeast, if you had NO sanitizer and old wooden barrels and no refridgeration, your avg beer life would suffer too.
SydneyBristow
New Member
Didn't believe that for one second.
If you think the ancient Germans would have turned down fresh yeast if it were available, then you need to cut back on your meth intake.
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
...........They wouldn't turn down a baloney on rye either,
WTF HAS THAT GOT TO DO WITH ANYTHING????????
OP
OP
Bob
Well-Known Member
They pay attention to pitch rates and yeast management, because they understand how important it is to world-class beer.
Bob
Bob
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
Hear hear.
HItransplant
Well-Known Member
Odd, I was just searching for info on this and this thread popped to the top. Thanks for all the good info.
tbrink
Active Member
Really, really wish I saw this thread two days ago. I washed a cake from an Amber ale and pitched it onto a 5 gallon batch of oatmeal stout in a 7.5 gallon bucket. When I poured in an estimated quart of yeast slurry, I wondered if it might have been too much, so I put in a blowoff tube just in case.
First let me say that I am so freaking glad that I routinely use blowoffs for the first couple of days "just in case". 12 hours later, I walked past the fermenter and noticed the lid was almost cartoonishly bulging out in a grotesquely alarming manner like it was going to explode at any moment. A quick check revealed that the the tube was filled with slow moving krausen, causing things to back up. I quickly found anything that was heavy in order to counter the upward pressure. Cast iron pan? Not enough. Two ten lb. handweights? not even close. Stack of five textbooks? Puh-lease. All of the above plus me sitting on the bucket? Now we're getting somewhere.
Balanced above, I watch the krausen slide through for a bit, then an air bubble went through and let out such a flatulent frenzy that my wife came to see what the commotion was. She finds me sitting on a stack of books on top of the bucket while holding handweights and the reservoir churning with such violence you'd think it was hooked to a pump. She opened her mouth to say something, reconsidered, and instead cocked her head and asked, "did we just avoid an incident?".
"uh, probably. I think if wouldn't have been here, the walls would be covered in stout soon."
She regards the situation and simply says, "this better be good stuff. If that thing would've blown its top, so would I."
Her trust and patience with her husband's mad hobby along with the explosive nature of the situation inspired me to call this batch "old faithful oatmeal stout".
First let me say that I am so freaking glad that I routinely use blowoffs for the first couple of days "just in case". 12 hours later, I walked past the fermenter and noticed the lid was almost cartoonishly bulging out in a grotesquely alarming manner like it was going to explode at any moment. A quick check revealed that the the tube was filled with slow moving krausen, causing things to back up. I quickly found anything that was heavy in order to counter the upward pressure. Cast iron pan? Not enough. Two ten lb. handweights? not even close. Stack of five textbooks? Puh-lease. All of the above plus me sitting on the bucket? Now we're getting somewhere.
Balanced above, I watch the krausen slide through for a bit, then an air bubble went through and let out such a flatulent frenzy that my wife came to see what the commotion was. She finds me sitting on a stack of books on top of the bucket while holding handweights and the reservoir churning with such violence you'd think it was hooked to a pump. She opened her mouth to say something, reconsidered, and instead cocked her head and asked, "did we just avoid an incident?".
"uh, probably. I think if wouldn't have been here, the walls would be covered in stout soon."
She regards the situation and simply says, "this better be good stuff. If that thing would've blown its top, so would I."
Her trust and patience with her husband's mad hobby along with the explosive nature of the situation inspired me to call this batch "old faithful oatmeal stout".
HItransplant
Well-Known Member
tbrink said:
Hilarious story...thanks for sharing!
If I may, Id suggest a larger diameter blow off tube than the one you're rockin'. It may prevent any further mayhem, and keep you out of trouble w the mrs.
DakotaRules
Well-Known Member
HItransplant said:
+1 on the bigger tube.
tbrink
Active Member
Watching that krausen slither along oh so slowly made me realize a bigger tube is indeed in order. Incidentally, things have settled down considerably. I estimate I lost about a half gallon of beer, but that's the pessimistic viewpoint...I prefer to think that i saved about 4 and a half gallons...oh, and maybe my marriage too.
gigatropolis
Member
Since the O2 is used during the growth phase, can pitching highly oxygenated yeast on top of the yeast cake leave a lot of unused O2 on the beer? Could this cause problems later due to oxidizing of the beer?
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