Why is this beer not bitter

[Glynn]

I finally tried my hand at brewing an all grain beer using ro water and adding my own minerals. Its been bottled almost 2 weeks now and there is almost no bitterness and no hop flavor or aroma. carbonation is great but its very pilsner like in flavor. I'm assuming that my salt additions are way off

Measured Original Gravity: 1.054 SG
Measured Final Gravity: 1.010 SG
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.8 %
Bitterness: 77.0 IBUs
Est Color: 6.7 SRM

9.20 gal RO Water Water 1 -
9.00 g Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 2 -
2.50 g Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 3 -
2.00 g Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 4 -
1.00 g Salt (Mash 60.0 mins) Water Agent 5 -
9 Lbs Pale Malt (2-Row) Canadian Malting Co (2.0 SRM) Grain 6 87.5 %
12.0 oz Caramel Malt - 40L (Cargill) (40.0 SRM) Grain 7 6.3 %
12.0 oz Munich (Cargill) (9.5 SRM) Grain 8 6.3 %
0.25 oz Horizon [11.10 %] - Boil 65.0 min Hop 9 8.5 IBUs
0.25 oz Citra pellet [14.10 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 10 6.4 IBUs
0.25 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [15.20 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 11 6.9 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra pellet [14.10 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 12 10.5 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [15.20 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 13 11.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra pellet [14.10 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 14 7.7 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [15.20 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 15 8.3 IBUs
1.00 oz Citra pellet [14.10 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 16 8.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [15.20 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 17 9.1 IBUs
1.0 pkg American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) [124.21 ml] Yeast 18

Mash In Add 4.50 gal of water at 165.2 F 152.0 F 60 min
Sparge Step: Batch sparge with 2 steps (Drain mash tun 4.68gal) of 180.0 F water

Fermented @ 60 for 2 weeks

Ca+2 Mg+2 Na+ Cl- SO4-2 Hco
79.7 5.7 11.3 52.0 166.6 0.000

Mash ph 5.43

 

[Yooper]

It sure doesn't seem like a 77 IBU beer. The hops additions don't seem to add up to 77 IBUs. They seem to be very small additions also, so that would explain the lack of hops aroma/flavor.

How is your software set up for IBU calculations?

It's not really the reason your IBUs seem off, but is your efficiency normally so low? Assuming a 5 gallon batch, that's 62% efficiency.

If I made that beer, I'd get an OG of 1.065.

Are you sure of the AAU % of your hops? Those all seem pretty high- but I don't have any citra so I don't know the typical amount of AAUs.

 

[MarcusKillion]

nice hops . should taste real good . Now what i see is that you only have a small amount of bittering hops . .25 oz Horizon at 65 minutes . that is nothing . I would think that would be an ounce . You have some nice bittering hops in there but they are all in the 20 minute and below area which is flavor and aroma and will not lend a lot to bitter .
Check your recipe to make sure your bitter additions is the correct amount .

On the water .. I have no idea . I just use my city water and it seems just fine to me or sometimes spring water from the store .

 

[Glynn]

It sure doesn't seem like a 77 IBU beer. The hops additions don't seem to add up to 77 IBUs. They seem to be very small additions also, so that would explain the lack of hops aroma/flavor.

How is your software set up for IBU calculations?

It's not really the reason your IBUs seem off, but is your efficiency normally so low? Assuming a 5 gallon batch, that's 62% efficiency.

If I made that beer, I'd get an OG of 1.065.

Are you sure of the AAU % of your hops? Those all seem pretty high- but I don't have any citra so I don't know the typical amount of AAUs.

my mistake the pale amount is wrong i only used 9 lb of because i left it on the scale and never added it to my crusher. I didnt figure it out untill 3 days later when i was cleaning up my bench. i do 6 gal batches so but only but 5.5 in the fermenter and i use beersmith. bitterness is tensith

 

[Glynn]

how do my water additions look for this style of beer

 

[kombat]

I blame the completely anemic bittering addition. 0.25 oz at 65 minutes, then absolutely NOTHING until 20 minutes left? That's just not going to give you much bitterness at all. You have waaaaaay too many late additions, and practically nothing for a bittering addition.

You should have an ounce or so at 60 minutes of something with high AA, then nothing until 5-10 minutes left, at which point you load on a bunch more (2-3 oz) of varying varieties. Ideally, add another ounce as a hop stand (look it up), then another 2-3 ounces dry hop. I guarantee that will slap you in the face with bittering and hop flavour/aroma.

 

[C-Rider]

Your problem is two fold:
1-0.25 oz Horizon [11.10 %] - Boil 65.0 min Hop 9 8.5 IBUs gives you only 8.5 IBU
2-You have to set the other hop additions to AROMA and not BOIL in your BeerSmith software. When you say "BOIL" BeerSmith will give you IBU's, BUT in reality you will not get any bitterness from them at 20 min or less.

I use more than 0.25 oz of bittering hops in 2.6 gallons of mash water.

 

[Glynn]

So what you guys are saying is that I should classify any addition 20 min or less as aroma and adjust the bittering charged at 60. Up until this batch the bittering has been ok. I normally do .50 horizon but the higher alpha late addition were pushing the ibu of the scale

 

[MarcusKillion]

I also forget most of the time to set the aroma in BS for my 20 min and under hops. it does give a higher IBU and actually does not have it .

 

[fartinmartin]

you don't have to have such a complex recipe, it's a hobby, and it's fun , till you try to work a recipe like this.

 

[rklinck]

you don't have to have such a complex recipe, it's a hobby, and it's fun , till you try to work a recipe like this.

For some of us, the fun is in coming up with, tweaking, and perfecting recipes. Some are simple, some not so much.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

you will not get any bitterness from them at 20 min or less.

I disagree. You will get some bitternes.

I highly suspect the age/storage of the hops. I saw a hbs once that left their hops in plastice containers at room temp!

Alpha acid % can drop considerably from oxidation. I vacuum seal my hops and store in the freezer to minmize oxidation and reduce alpha/beta "loss".

 

[RonPopeil]

i've experimented with beers that attain most of their bitterness from late additions. in my experience hop flavor was front and present but bitterness wasn't there at all. it was almost like beer flavored soda.

i wouldn't be surprised if your water situation had a hand in things as well. i use filtered tap water in all my beers just to make sure there's enough crap in it to make beer.

 

[Glynn]

It's been my experience that both ron and evil are correct. Later additions do add ibus but it just seems like its not enough. I'm very happy with the flavor and aroma I get using the 15/10/5/whirlpool-steep but the bitterness is just not getting there. I buy my hops as i need them for the most part so it not like i 10 lb sitting around. I find that on everything i brew using BS that im maxing out the ibu's for the style and still not getting an exceptable bitterness.

 

[chri5]

It's been my experience that both ron and evil are correct. Later additions do add ibus but it just seems like its not enough. I'm very happy with the flavor and aroma I get using the 15/10/5/whirlpool-steep but the bitterness is just not getting there. I buy my hops as i need them for the most part so it not like i 10 lb sitting around. I find that on everything i brew using BS that im maxing out the ibu's for the style and still not getting an exceptable bitterness.

This is absolutely correct. I've brewed a few IPAs with nothing added before 15 minutes. It's a way to get big flavor and aroma without an overpowering bitterness.

For a more traditional IPA, I like to have at least half of my IBUs added at 60 minutes. This is leaving beersmith on boil for all additions since it takes into account the shortened boil time.

 

[C-Rider]

I disagree. You will get some bitternes.

I highly suspect the age/storage of the hops. I saw a hbs once that left their hops in plastice containers at room temp!

Alpha acid % can drop considerably from oxidation. I vacuum seal my hops and store in the freezer to minmize oxidation and reduce alpha/beta "loss".

Ok I'll agree to change "any" to "some".

 

[Schol-R-LEA]

According to the chart on this page, at SG 1.054 you can expect to get about 14% AA utilization at 20 minutes boil time, whereas after 5 minutes only about 5% of the alpha acids are extracted. This compares to 23% at 60 minutes. In other words, a 20 minute addition will give a little more roughly 60% the bitterness of a 60 minute addition, and a 5 minute addition will give about 20% of a 60 minute boil time. These are not negligible amounts of utilization by any means, but they aren't large, either.

 

[MichaelBrock]

2-You have to set the other hop additions to AROMA and not BOIL in your BeerSmith software. When you say "BOIL" BeerSmith will give you IBU's, BUT in reality you will not get any bitterness from them at 20 min or less.

I just leave all of my hop additions as BOIL and never realized there was a difference in Beersmith's calculations. I did some research and Brad Smith apparently intends that any hop addition that experiences boiling should be set to BOIL so that it can properly calculate the bitterness addition for those late hops (they do give some). Apparently the AROMA option is intended for 0 minute additions. Why the software would even have an option for a hop to be considered AROMA and provide no bitterness despite a 60 minute boil time strikes me as a design flaw.

Beersmith Discussion on BOIL vs AROMA

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

I just leave all of my hop additions as BOIL and never realized there was a difference in Beersmith's calculations. I did some research and Brad Smith apparently intends that any hop addition that experiences boiling should be set to BOIL so that it can properly calculate the bitterness addition for those late hops (they do give some). Apparently the AROMA option is intended for 0 minute additions. Why the software would even have an option for a hop to be considered AROMA and provide no bitterness despite a 60 minute boil time strikes me as a design flaw.

Beersmith Discussion on BOIL vs AROMA

Considering that there is still utilization above 180f....

 

[carton132]

I highly suspect the age/storage of the hops. I saw a hbs once that left their hops in plastice containers at room temp!

Alpha acid % can drop considerably from oxidation. I vacuum seal my hops and store in the freezer to minmize oxidation and reduce alpha/beta "loss".

The only store near me (and by near I mean an hour round trip) does this. Needless to say, once I saw this I knew I was going to be buying my hops online in bulk.

 

[Glynn]

I'm just going to blame this recipe on operator error. Thou I'm not sure how mistakes like, shorting my mash 1.5 lb of grain and accidentally adding my whirlpool hops and boiling an extra 5 mins made this a bland beer. I just bottled my Citra IPA and its fine and the two recipes are not that far apart in terms of ibu, hop sched and salt additions. the citra ipa has 14 ibus less and is way more bitter. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f66/naughty-kitty-citra-ipa-438209/ It's worth noting that the citra and horizon in both recipes came from the same bag

 

[mabrungard]

Since you started with RO water and mineralized it fairly well, its possible that the mashing pH ended up too low. Low pH for the overall wort can reduce the hop expression and bitterness. Using a program like Bru'n Water can help guide your water treatment to produce mashing conditions that may help your brews be more successful.

 

[Yooper]

Your problem is two fold:
1-0.25 oz Horizon [11.10 %] - Boil 65.0 min Hop 9 8.5 IBUs gives you only 8.5 IBU
2-You have to set the other hop additions to AROMA and not BOIL in your BeerSmith software. When you say "BOIL" BeerSmith will give you IBU's, BUT in reality you will not get any bitterness from them at 20 min or less.

I use more than 0.25 oz of bittering hops in 2.6 gallons of mash water.

I don't want to "pile on" here- but I have more than one recipe that is "hopbursted"- that is, no hops at all until 20 minutes from the end, and I easily get 60+ IBUs. It just takes more hops. That is an awesome way to make big bold in-your-face hops flavor and aroma stick in an IPA or APA. It works!

Since you started with RO water and mineralized it fairly well, its possible that the mashing pH ended up too low. Low pH for the overall wort can reduce the hop expression and bitterness. Using a program like Bru'n Water can help guide your water treatment to produce mashing conditions that may help your brews be more successful.

That makes a lot of sense. The hops are low in amounts, but there still should be plenty of IBUs in it. I wonder what the pH of the preboil wort was. Can it be guestimated from Bru'n water, filling in the spreadsheet? How does mash pH "translate" to a probable kettle pH? I've never thought about that.

 

[Glynn]

i used this
http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=YDX2F1X

 

[Glynn]

Since you started with RO water and mineralized it fairly well, its possible that the mashing pH ended up too low. Low pH for the overall wort can reduce the hop expression and bitterness. Using a program like Bru'n Water can help guide your water treatment to produce mashing conditions that may help your brews be more successful.

Would that explain why i hit all my preboil, og and fg number even thou i was missing 1.5 lb of base malt. my mash eff for this batch was like 93

 

[C-Rider]

I just leave all of my hop additions as BOIL and never realized there was a difference in Beersmith's calculations. I did some research and Brad Smith apparently intends that any hop addition that experiences boiling should be set to BOIL so that it can properly calculate the bitterness addition for those late hops (they do give some). Apparently the AROMA option is intended for 0 minute additions. Why the software would even have an option for a hop to be considered AROMA and provide no bitterness despite a 60 minute boil time strikes me as a design flaw.

Beersmith Discussion on BOIL vs AROMA

Interesting. I'll look into that. Mahalo

 

[C-Rider]

I don't want to "pile on" here- but I have more than one recipe that is "hopbursted"- that is, no hops at all until 20 minutes from the end, and I easily get 60+ IBUs. It just takes more hops. That is an awesome way to make big bold in-your-face hops flavor and aroma stick in an IPA or APA. It works!



That makes a lot of sense. The hops are low in amounts, but there still should be plenty of IBUs in it. I wonder what the pH of the preboil wort was. Can it be guestimated from Bru'n water, filling in the spreadsheet? How does mash pH "translate" to a probable kettle pH? I've never thought about that.

When "the lady" speaks I listen. Mahalo, may try that myself.

 

[Yooper]

When "the lady" speaks I listen. Mahalo, may try that myself.

Oh, it's not an original thought! It came mostly from Jamil Zainasheff, after trying his "Evil Twin" recipe.

But do try it! It gives this amazing hop flavor and burst of hoppiness that I just love. I'm drinking a hopbursted APA right now, as a matter of fact!