Why is my brew always bitter?

[DD2000GT]

I keep reducing the boil hops to lower the IBUs, but my brews keep coming out bitter. The bitter on the back and sides of the tongue you associate from long boil hop additions. I just cracked open a bottle of my Octoberfest to see how it is coming along - excelent malt profile and flavor up front, low aroma and flavor hops, but slightly overwelming bitternes on the finish. Beer Smith shows the IBUs at 20.2, the very lowest end for the style (which is how I planned it), but it is still pretty bitter like a 50 IBU brew.

Must be something other than the hops at play here. I have this issue with most light colored ales, the darker ones seem to do much better.

 

[Golddiggie]

Post up your recipe...

I've tasted some brews that were low IBU, but used grains that give bitter flavors when in too high a percentage of the grist. Such as a stout with too much black malt...

 

[Celticway]

Could you be fermenting at a high temp?

 

[HomebrewKs]

+1 Celticway. High temps were my issue when it came to off taste/bitterness.

 

[PurpleJeepXJ]

Sounds like astringency

 

[Celticway]

+1 Celticway. High temps were my issue when it came to off taste/bitterness.

Yeah me too. Getting ferm temp control is key.

 

[DD2000GT]

I live in Texas and keep the house at 79 degrees (when it is 107 outside that is cold!). Anyway, I ferment in a large tub with water, tee shirt over the fermenter with a fan blowing directly on it. I shuttle out frozen gallon jugs of water three times a day - morning before work, when I get home, and before bed. Stick on thermometer on side of my glass carboy shows around 69-70 degrees. I always use SafeAle S-05 because the range goes up to 75 degrees. I tooks special care keeping this brew as cool as possible as I will be serving it at my next Octoberfest party - but I do not question fermenting temps as being a possibility - just posting my process. One thought I just had - I used Coopers drops in the bottles to carb and it sat at room temp for the past three weeks (79-ish) - could this be my culprit?

Recipe is:

5 lbs 2 row
4 lbs Munich Malt
1/2 lb caramunic malt
1/2 caravienne malt
1 oz Tradition hops (4.4 AA 60 min)
1 oz Spalter Hops (3.0 AA 15 min)
1/2 oz Hallertauer (3.8 AA Aroma steep at flameout)
1/2 oz Hallertauer (3.8 AA Dry hop 7 days)
Fermentis SafeAle S-05
Ferment for 3 weeks at 70-ish degrees

Anyway - do you think this bitterness fade by October?

 

[Celticway]

Well, it might not be from the temps, but it is my suspect. Fluctuating temps will also cause off flavors percieved as bitterness. Another question: do you try an separate the cold break before it goes into your fermentor? Alot of poeple here will say it doesn't matter, that it just falls to the bottom. Well that's true until active fermentation starts, then it's all over the place. I have found when I first started using a CFC I overlooked that. When I used a Immersion chiller, the cold break settled to the bottom of my kettle and was never a problem. First couple of times with the CFC it was snowing cold break into my fermentor and did cause some nastyness. Now I pump back from my chiller into the kettle and bring the whole thing down to pitch temps. Just an idea.

 

[Celticway]

If it is a bitterness not caused by the hops, sadly to say that it probably won't be less.

 

[azscoob]

Water profile can have a massive impact on bitterness, do you brew with tap water or do you use RO? your tap water may be the culprit here.

I have found with my water here that mixing it 50/50 RO and dechlorinated tap that I can make a pretty mean english ale, if I am making a stout or porter I use all tap.

Could be that you need to start tinkering with your water or trying bottled drinking water and see if it makes a difference.

 

[Celticway]

Water profile can have a massive impact on bitterness, do you brew with tap water or do you use RO? your tap water may be the culprit here.

I have found with my water here that mixing it 50/50 RO and dechlorinated tap that I can make a pretty mean english ale, if I am making a stout or porter I use all tap.

Could be that you need to start tinkering with your water or trying bottled drinking water and see if it makes a difference.

Also true.

 

[Golddiggie]

Hadn't thought of water being the culprit... Probably since I've always used either properly filtered (under the sink units) or bottled water (Poland Springs) for batches.

If everything else is in line, and doesn't explain the flavors, try brewing a batch with good bottled water and see how it comes out. I would try to replicate a batch that does have the issue, that you still have some of on hand.

 

[DD2000GT]

I do not filter the cold break - I use an immersion chiller and swirl the wort right at flame out to center the solids. Then I siphon from the edge. As far as water, I use tap. I got a water profile from the city and according to Palmer my ideal style without modification based on my water profile are Browns (SRM about 20). I have tried bottled spring water in the past, but did not seem to notice a change. I guess I could try to change the Calcium and up it some to put my ideal style around 10 or so and see if that helps. Or, run the tap water through an inline filter(?)

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

You mention ferment temp, but what is your pitch temp? Generally you want to pitch below your ferment temp and let it rise, but as long as you're close, it's generally not a horrible idea to pitch *slightly* high. But if you're pitching at 80 degrees and then letting it drop to 70, you could be getting some weird off flavors.

But my guess would be astringency, which can increase perceived bitterness. I'd look at your water profile, sparge temp, and be sure you're not oversparging (tough to do with batch sparges or mid-high gravity ales, but could occur on low-grav fly sparges).

 

[broadbill]

I live in Texas and keep the house at 79 degrees (when it is 107 outside that is cold!). Anyway, I ferment in a large tub with water, tee shirt over the fermenter with a fan blowing directly on it. I shuttle out frozen gallon jugs of water three times a day - morning before work, when I get home, and before bed. Stick on thermometer on side of my glass carboy shows around 69-70 degrees. I always use SafeAle S-05 because the range goes up to 75 degrees. I tooks special care keeping this brew as cool as possible as I will be serving it at my next Octoberfest party - but I do not question fermenting temps as being a possibility - just posting my process. One thought I just had - I used Coopers drops in the bottles to carb and it sat at room temp for the past three weeks (79-ish) - could this be my culprit?

Recipe is:

5 lbs 2 row
4 lbs Munich Malt
1/2 lb caramunic malt
1/2 caravienne malt
1 oz Tradition hops (4.4 AA 60 min)
1 oz Spalter Hops (3.0 AA 15 min)
1/2 oz Hallertauer (3.8 AA Aroma steep at flameout)
1/2 oz Hallertauer (3.8 AA Dry hop 7 days)
Fermentis SafeAle S-05
Ferment for 3 weeks at 70-ish degrees

Anyway - do you think this bitterness fade by October?

Frankly, I think the recipe is over-hopped for a an Oktoberfest beer, especially with the Aroma and dry hop additions. I think that maybe the late-additions are giving you some hop profiles that are so out-of-place in a Oktoberfest
that it is messing with your overall perception.

That is my guess...FWIW

 

[usfmikeb]

I wonder if the AA ratings for your hops are off as well, as the ratings you've listed are low for every kind of hop you used.

 

[DD2000GT]

According to Beer Smith I am at the very lowset end in IBUs for an Octoberfest style. Normal IBUs ar 20 - 28 and I am at 20.2. The AAs could be off I guess, but it was pellet hops and they are usually fairly close I would think. I did not think hop additions at flamout and dry hopping adds anything to bitterness - only aroma and flavoring. Because I am in Texas and it is summer, it take about 30 min to cool the wort using an immersion chiller as the temp of the tap just isn't that cold. I am pitching at about 80 degrees then cooling in my swamp cooler as quickly as possible. Usually, I am down to 70 degrees or so withing 4 hours. Once there, it only rises a few degrees at the hight of fermentation. I am putting in 2 frozen gallon jugs of water at a time and swapping three times a day. I usually let the wort come up to 75 or so at the end of fermentation to keep the yeast as active as poosible.

 

[logdrum]

I vote for water, what's your pH?

-d

 

[jfr1111]

Frankly, I think the recipe is over-hopped for a an Oktoberfest beer, especially with the Aroma and dry hop additions. I think that maybe the late-additions are giving you some hop profiles that are so out-of-place in a Oktoberfest
that it is messing with your overall perception.

That is my guess...FWIW

+1, probably overhopped. Calculated IBUs in my experience, aren't a good indicator of how bitter a beer will turn out. What formula are you using to calculate bitterness ?

Why not go for an honest bitterness addition and then maybe a small flavour addition ? When I think Oktoberfest, I don't think about hops. Dry hopping might screw with your perception.

 

[waldoar15]

I'd guess water too. Maybe check your grain crush and try malt conditioning.

 

[DD2000GT]

I did not calculate IBUs - I use Beer Smith and it does it for me - not sure of their calculations. As far as my water PH - my water profile shows 7.69 (standard units). Alkalinity is 91.9 mg/L as CaCO3.

Crush is from AHS - I usually request a finer crush nut it does not come powdered or anything - still has husks in tact for the most part. Efficiency is usually arount 70-80 percent - on this brew it was 76.3%.

I know an Octoberfest should not be hop-previlent - but I love hop aroma and hop flavor and since these additions do not add to bitterness I wanted to put it in (make/drink what you like right?). I would probably dry hop every brew including wheats if my better judgement wouldn't stop me ;-)

 

[ArcaneXor]

My guess is astringency, either from the husks or the dry hops. Try the recipe as a no-sparge with a slightly coarser crush, and leave the dry hops out. If you can, condition your malt before milling (but that'd require you to buy your own mill - homebrew shops don't like conditioning because if done wrong, it gums up the rollers). I'd also suggest using WLP 011 or 036 as the yeast (K97 if you prefer dry).

 

[Celticway]

One last thing to add to the mix: underpitching? I underpitched for the first 3 years (way back when) of my brewing career. Once I started pitching properly I saw a big difference as well.

 

[Golddiggie]

Just to toss this thought into the pool... When you collect the wort for the boil, does any grain particles come along for the ride? If you get more than a tiny amount, I would use a nylon grain bag to filter the wort that's going into the kettle.

Since I started doing that, I've noticed my brews taste much smoother. Luckily, I started doing this fairly early in my brewing life/career. I simply fit a large nylon grain bag into the kettle, and collect as usual. Once done collecting, I simply remove the bag, and place it into the mash tun to get cleaned later. Works really well and takes a load off my mind.

You also might want to invest in a fermentation chamber, so that you're not depending on ice to keep your primary at the right temp. You could be getting wild temperature swings, freaking the yeast out.

 

[sidboswell]

Call your water company and ask for an e-mail or fax of the water report. Watch hardness, pH, and alkalinity. You will want to do this anyway before attempting a mash, so get it now.

 

[sidboswell]

Another thought ... Find out what they are treating it with or try a campden tablet while heating your kettle....

 

[DD2000GT]

Dry hops add astringency? I thought dry hops only imported aroma/taste features since it was not heated up.

For underpitching - I use dry yeast and active fermentation usually starts within a few hours. I guess I could use two packets if the general consensus thinks one is not enough.

For calling the city for my water report - that is where I got my water profile from I have been referring to through this post.

For the campden tablet - not a bad idea but I thought boiling for an hour would take out all chlorine. Any other benefit to this idea I am not thinking of? I do have Campden tablets as I brew mead as well so that is an easy thing to try.

For possibly having grain/husks in my wort - I vouloff(sp) about a gallon to a gallon and a half until it is running fairly clear. There are some miniscule particles that still get in - I figured that wouldn't make much of an impact. I can try a coarser crush but my efficiency was running around 65% - might just add another pound to the recipe to compensate. Yes - I want my own mill - monster mill is on my Christmas list ;-)

Would LOVE a fermentation chamber - but I have two fridges (one is my beer box out in the garage where my beer and kegs go) and one freezer for my sides of beef we buy. Not sure I can swing another fridge to put a temp control on for quite some time.

 

[oldschool]

Many good things have been mentioned. If it actually is astringency then what about your process? Over sparging, grain bed temperature during sparge, hot side aeration, oxidized trub? I have had some astringency on my last couple brews and I'm now trying to iron out the issues. These topics have been the most popular.

 

[sidboswell]

For the campden tablet - not a bad idea but I thought boiling for an hour would take out all chlorine. Any other benefit to this idea I am not thinking of? I do have Campden tablets as I brew mead as well so that is an easy thing to try.

Chlorine ... Yes.

Chloramine ... No. Boiling will not remove chloramine. If that is what they are treating with then a campden will take care of it. 1 tablet for 20 gallons (1 for 5 is fine).

 

[DD2000GT]

I mash at 1.25 quarts per pound of grain, then sparge with enough to bring the boil volume up to 7 gallons. Usually, that works out to about 1.50 quarts per pound. Sparge as close to 170 degrees as possible, usually hit around 168 degrees in the mash but as I pour the 190+ degree water into the mash I am sure some time the mash hits over 170 degrees for a few minutes until I stir good. And I stir the bajeebers out of the mash when I mash in and when I sparge (I batch sparge).

 

[DD2000GT]

Chlorine ... Yes.

Chloramine ... No. Boiling will not remove chloramine. If that is what they are treating with then a campden will take care of it. 1 tablet for 20 gallons (1 for 5 is fine).

Nice to know. I will throw one in on my next brew to see if it cuts down on the bitterness. Thanks for the idea. Do you throw it in the boil or after? Will it affect the yeast?

 

[shataway]

What is the temp of your serving fridge and what psi is your regulator set for?

 

[logdrum]

Try adding 4-5 oz of sauermalt (acidified malt) to your next grain bill. If you're using Palmers spreadsheet, see if this gets you to about 5.2 pH or so.

-d

 

[eastoak]

astringency and bitterness cannot be confused.

 

[PurpleJeepXJ]

astringency and bitterness cannot be confused.

They can be if someone is new to brewing and has never been told the difference in flavour. I would still go with temperature. Even though the stick on thermometer reads 70 it is likely the internal temp is around 80.

 

[rockfish42]

What levels of sulfate and chloride are listed in your water report?

 

[DD2000GT]

What levels of sulfate and chloride are listed in your water report?

Sulfate: 77 mg/L
Chloride: 35.1 mg/L

 

[ArcaneXor]

Dry hops add astringency? I thought dry hops only imported aroma/taste features since it was not heated up.

One important thing to understand that isomerized alpha acids are the most important, but by no means only type of perceived bitterness that hops contribute to a beer. Sometimes, dry hopping will create a harsh, grassy astringency, especially when the dry hops are left in for too long.

 

[broadbill]

Even though the stick on thermometer reads 70 it is likely the internal temp is around 80.

My stick-on thermometer is dead-nuts accurate to the temperature of the beer inside of it. If it is ever not accurate, its certainly not 10 degrees off!

 

[sudsmcgee]

My stick-on thermometer is dead-nuts accurate to the temperature of the beer inside of it. If it is ever not accurate, its certainly not 10 degrees off!

It certainly can be during active fermentation. The stick on thermometer is being cooled by outside air/water.