Why don't yeast companies just sell liquid yeast packages with higher cell counts?

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johnp

johnp

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Seems to me the majority of beers need a yeast starter. Wouldn't this avoid having to make as many starters?

Maybe they're trying to keep costs down, but I'd be willing to pay more to not have to make a starter.

There are some beers that don't need a yeast starter, and maybe it wouldn't be desirable to try to save half an opened pack of liquid yeast, but they could just sell two sizes of yeast packages.

Am I missing something? :confused:
 
I make a starter for every batch of beer I make, even my 4.5% Blonde. Besides growing your cell count, you are making sure the yeast are viable and also shorten the lag time in your primary.
 
I'm going to take a stab at this and suggest that the manufacturers are aiming at the lowest common denominator in beer size. A 100B cell count would be sufficient for a low-gravity ale, and those brewers who want higher cell counts can make a starter or buy multiple packs. OTOH, if the company made all the packs, say, 200B (with accompanying higher price) that would be overkill for that small beer.
 
I've put a fair amount of thought into this, as I don't understand why yeast companies, which you would think would know what they're talking about, have such crappy instructions on their packages. I think the problem is that there are two competing companies both making the same claims about 100 billion cells being enough to inoculate 5 gallons of 1.060 wort, and they're afraid whichever one is the first to admit it's not will lose business to the other one.

Imagine a new brewer who knows nothing about pitch rates looking at two packages of yeast. One says this package has everything you need, ready to go. The other one says this package works for small beers, but bigger beers will require this other more expensive package, or you'll need to make a starter. They think the new brewer is going to pick the cheaper easier one, and by the time they figure out proper pitch rates they'll be making starters anyway. That's my guess anyway.
 
That video is going to make my head explode. First he says 1 million cells per milliliter per degree Plato is the rule of thumb for pitch rates, and he even gives an example of needing to do a 2 liter starter for a 12 Plato wort, then he goes on to say 100 billion cells is enough for a 1.060 wort. That's what, like 15 Plato? Shouldn't you need 285 billion cells? Either my math sucks or he's saying 2 completely contradictory things.
 
PRE66_6TART said:
I've put a fair amount of thought into this, as I don't understand why yeast companies, which you would think would know what they're talking about, have such crappy instructions on their packages. I think the problem is that there are two competing companies both making the same claims about 100 billion cells being enough to inoculate 5 gallons of 1.060 wort, and they're afraid whichever one is the first to admit it's not will lose business to the other one.

Imagine a new brewer who knows nothing about pitch rates looking at two packages of yeast. One says this package has everything you need, ready to go. The other one says this package works for small beers, but bigger beers will require this other more expensive package, or you'll need to make a starter. They think the new brewer is going to pick the cheaper easier one, and by the time they figure out proper pitch rates they'll be making starters anyway. That's my guess anyway.
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That's the most plausible guess I've seen thus far.
 
IMO I don't think it would matter much, because of the half-life of yeast if you got more it would just mean that more yeast would be dead when you go to pitch. I usually only pitch without a starter if it is 1.050 or below AND less than a month old.
 
This is a somewhat old thread but I agree.... I'm not into making starters at all, I brew 12 gallon all grain batches, seems beers call for 6 smack packs for ales and 8 for lagers without a starter. Why not have different sizes? Package it one time and be done with it. I don't want to focus on starters I just want to focus on making beer.... Just gimme the yeast man...
 
PRE66_6TART said:
That video is going to make my head explode. First he says 1 million cells per milliliter per degree Plato is the rule of thumb for pitch rates, and he even gives an example of needing to do a 2 liter starter for a 12 Plato wort, then he goes on to say 100 billion cells is enough for a 1.060 wort. That's what, like 15 Plato? Shouldn't you need 285 billion cells? Either my math sucks or he's saying 2 completely contradictory things.
Click to expand...

Taking a stab at this here...

That 1 mil cells/ml/°P is based around repitched slurry, and further split to 0.75 mil cells/ml/°P for ales, and 1.5 mil for lagers.

Based on the "Yeast" book by Chris White and JZ, pure lab cultures can reduce the pitching rate by 50% of that. So for a pure lab culture, you're looking at 0.375 million cells per ml per °P for ales. Which puts you at 104 billion cells for 5 gallons at 1.060.

Now, this is assuming yeast that is 100% viable. So it's still pushing it. But that's the logic, as far as I understand it. And they do say that if the yeast is old you need to make a starter.
 
Qhrumphf said:
Taking a stab at this here...

That 1 mil cells/ml/°P is based around repitched slurry, and further split to 0.75 mil cells/ml/°P for ales, and 1.5 mil for lagers.

Based on the "Yeast" book by Chris White and JZ, pure lab cultures can reduce the pitching rate by 50% of that. So for a pure lab culture, you're looking at 0.375 million cells per ml per °P for ales. Which puts you at 104 billion cells for 5 gallons at 1.060.

Now, this is assuming yeast that is 100% viable. So it's still pushing it. But that's the logic, as far as I understand it. And they do say that if the yeast is old you need to make a starter.
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Jamil distanced himself from that statement when I emailed him to ask about the discrepancy between what the book said and what his pitching calc said, FWIW, saying any yeast you purchase will have lost some viability and that you should always make a starter when using liquid yeast.
 
boydster said:
Jamil distanced himself from that statement when I emailed him to ask about the discrepancy between what the book said and what his pitching calc said, FWIW, saying any yeast you purchase will have lost some viability and that you should always make a starter when using liquid yeast.
Click to expand...

That's been my impression as well. He's always been big on starters. He even states disagreement with an intentional reduction in pitching rate for increased esters.

My assumption is that that facet came from Chris White, and I don't know the background of the science behind it. But I've been skeptical of it too.

And beyond that, my assumption was that all yeast qualifies as "old" and by their own admission needs a starter.

I'm not saying I agree with it. I'm just saying that I think that's the explanation behind the numbers on the package.
 
Jamil Z says, "go the extra mile to pitch a healthy number of viable yeast."

Gordon Strong says, "I use one smack pack per batch, including lagers, and rarely use a starter."

Chris White says, "you should probably use a starter with liquid strains."

Dave Logsdon says, "you should direct pitch one activator pack, it's plenty."

(To sum it up, anyway.)

I just don't know what to believe anymore. /cries

:D
 
Wolfbrau said:
Jamil Z says, "go the extra mile to pitch a healthy number of viable yeast."

Gordon Strong says, "I use one smack pack per batch, including lagers, and rarely use a starter."

Chris White says, "you should probably use a starter with liquid strains."

Dave Logsdon says, "you should direct pitch one activator pack, it's plenty."

(To sum it up, anyway.)

I just don't know what to believe anymore. /cries

:D
Click to expand...

And yet others say you should pitch an even larger starter than what JZ advocates, and then skip aerating the wort.

The important part in the "Yeast" book on the topic was that this is a variable you can adjust, just like oxygenation/aeration, mash temp, fermentation temperature, and so on. And that the important part is to find the baseline that works for your beer, and then adjust from there as needed.

I've found what works for me. For my yeast-forward beers, I target about 0.5 million cells per ml per °P (and for session beers, it works out perfectly that at the usual freshness I get, that's just enough to not need a starter, instead that session beer IS the starter and just repitch), and for cleaner ales I'll go closer to 1 mil cells. For hybrids I go up to 1.2 mil, and haven't done a proper lager but I'd go at least 1.5 mil there. Then aerate well. Gets me the ester character I want in each case.
 
Wolfbrau said:
Jamil Z says, "go the extra mile to pitch a healthy number of viable yeast."

Gordon Strong says, "I use one smack pack per batch, including lagers, and rarely use a starter."

Chris White says, "you should probably use a starter with liquid strains."

Dave Logsdon says, "you should direct pitch one activator pack, it's plenty."

(To sum it up, anyway.)

I just don't know what to believe anymore. /cries

:D
Click to expand...

As for following those who say direct-pitch/no starter, it's all fun and games until you make that one under-pitched batch with off-flavors due to stressed yeast. (Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.) After that, you'll become a believer in starters. :D
 
MaxStout said:
As for following those who say direct-pitch/no starter, it's all fun and games until you make that one under-pitched batch with off-flavors due to stressed yeast. (Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.) After that, you'll become a believer in starters. :D
Click to expand...

Meh... screw starters... I'll save money by buying grain by the sack and hops in bulk.... and pitching however many smack packs Mr Malty tells me to... Cheers...
 
Gigayeast is a full 200b cell pitch, I believe. Haven't tried one yet, but they just started carrying it at my LHBS so I may have to soon just for kicks. I make biggish (1 gal) drinkable starters of lawn mower beers and smash experiments and don't stir or shake them. I get a few bottles and it often helps me tweak a recipe for a full batch.
 
Unless using dry yeast I always make a starter. When I first started using liquid yeast (WL) I didn't make a starter but after reading how important yeast count and viability are it seems like a great assurance that the yeast is good. Since making starters Ive noticed a difference in my beers for the better. I think even if I could buy a vial of yeast big enough to pitch for my 10 gallon batches I would still do a starter just to make sure my yeasts are still good.
And I always have a few packs of dry yeast in the fridge just in case I go to pitch my starter and it seems off.
 
You don't have to wear a seat belt if you're only going just down the road, but, you know...

You don't have to wear protection with that random chick you just met, but, you know...
 
poptarts said:
I would be happy paying half price for half the cell count.
Click to expand...

Filling a sterilized container, distributing cold and selling in your LHBS makes up a lump of the cost of each yeast pack. Halving the cell count won't halve the cost. And likewise, doubling the cell count wouldn't double the cost. However handling and stocking different sized containers on the line, in distribution, and in the LHBS would make a big increase in costs for all pack sizes, as well as reducing the turnover of stock of each size pack, which would in turn reduce the quality of the product (viability).

I suspect that 100 billion cells at packing is a compromise between cost of production of the container, cost of production of the yeast, cost of distribution of the pack, increasing the number of strains that LHBSs can stock, and giving the purchaser just enough yeast to get away with a direct pitch in a standard sized kit batch and thus avoid too many complaints.

If you want less, some people will sell you slants (e.g. Brewlabs if you are looking to import some English strains).
 
dyqik said:
Filling a sterilized container, distributing cold and selling in your LHBS makes up a lump of the cost of each yeast pack. Halving the cell count won't halve the cost. And likewise, doubling the cell count wouldn't double the cost. However handling and stocking different sized containers on the line, in distribution, and in the LHBS would make a big increase in costs for all pack sizes, as well as reducing the turnover of stock of each size pack, which would in turn reduce the quality of the product (viability).

I suspect that 100 billion cells at packing is a compromise between cost of production of the container, cost of production of the yeast, cost of distribution of the pack, increasing the number of strains that LHBSs can stock, and giving the purchaser just enough yeast to get away with a direct pitch in a standard sized kit batch and thus avoid too many complaints.

If you want less, some people will sell you slants (e.g. Brewlabs if you are looking to import some English strains).
Click to expand...

This. If increase size meant less variety or decreased viability or decreased turnover then that'd be a big problem.

Unless you really want to pay for more yeast, a starter is cheaper anyway.

And yes, some manufacturers are selling something other than the 100 billion cell vial/smack pack. Although I don't know of any selling liquid yeast with anywhere NEAR the variety that Wyeast and White Labs have, most are very much limited availability, and often only available locally or regionally.

I guess my point is this is one of those "if it ain't broke don't fix it" kind of scenarios.
 
There was XL packs of yeast a couple years ago. must not have been popular enough to catch on. Here is the new white labs packs coming this fall.

main-homebrewer-packing.jpg


Looks like they can fit more packs into a smaller space.

One thing I don't understand is why homebrew shops don't make starters for you. That would be convenient. ALso if they pre-crushed your recipe and had that ready to go with any hops required as well.

I asked about the them not having old yeast on sale. Apparently White Labs will take back yeast monthly if you buy a certain amount from them.
 
grathan said:
One thing I don't understand is why homebrew shops don't make starters for you. That would be convenient. ALso if they pre-crushed your recipe and had that ready to go with any hops required as well.
Click to expand...

This is a bad idea for so many reasons. If you want the stuff handed to you, buy a kit. I buy in bulk, size my starters to be exactly what I need, and crush my grain the same way each time. If they do it for me I can't control any of it nor be guaranteed they even did it properly.
 
Qhrumphf said:
This is a bad idea for so many reasons. If you want the stuff handed to you, buy a kit. I buy in bulk, size my starters to be exactly what I need, and crush my grain the same way each time. If they do it for me I can't control any of it nor be guaranteed they even did it properly.
Click to expand...

Yep - I agree. This would be very hit-and-miss in my opinion. There are 10 questions on here everyday from folks who are told "just get it below 80 and it will be fine" or "One Step will do both" or " just use these grains, and that extract and this other yeast and these substitute hops and it will basically be the same thing"..........

Pretty sure I would not want those same people trying to throw together my yeast starter for me.

I am sure some places could do a fine job of this...... but, I bet a lot could not. Yeast is just one of those things where I basically don't trust anyone but myself.
 
grathan said:
There was XL packs of yeast a couple years ago. must not have been popular enough to catch on. Here is the new white labs packs coming this fall.

main-homebrewer-packing.jpg


Looks like they can fit more packs into a smaller space.

One thing I don't understand is why homebrew shops don't make starters for you. That would be convenient. ALso if they pre-crushed your recipe and had that ready to go with any hops required as well.

I asked about the them not having old yeast on sale. Apparently White Labs will take back yeast monthly if you buy a certain amount from them.
Click to expand...

If you want all your grain crushed for you then order online or buy a kit locally. One of my most-used LHBS do not even sell kits in a box because the yeast sits on the shelves aging alongside the crushed grain. To give you the freshest ingredients possible, they choose to give you a binder of recipes that you can choose from and build your own kit. If you're adamant about not crushing your own grain then I bet they will do it, but really, just crush your grain. Crushing grain makes me physically uncomfortable for about 15 minutes after. It is embarrassing frankly and I hate it, but I do it and just try to shield myself from inhaling the crushed grain.

I prefer to know my grain is as fresh as I can get it. Sure, I understand my LHBS could be selling me older grain but with the care and regard they seem to have for the hobby, I somehow think they're on top of cycling out old grain.

As for yeast, I would not want anyone but me making a starter really. I want to be sure I am not getting bad yeast that could infect my beer. Call me a control freak but starters are just another part of the hobby.
 
MaxStout said:
As for following those who say direct-pitch/no starter, it's all fun and games until you make that one under-pitched batch with off-flavors due to stressed yeast. (Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.) After that, you'll become a believer in starters. :D
Click to expand...

Some people prefer to call that "house character". :D
 
Lots of ignorance flying around and mis-information being parroted in this thread.

Formal research in this area is well established and extenstive. You should ALWAYS make a starter with liquid yeast if the desired outcome is the best possible beer one can make. If you're happy with that "house character" in your beer, then by all means continue lazy practices and under-pitching.
 
g-star said:
Lots of ignorance flying around and mis-information being parroted in this thread.

Formal research in this area is well established and extenstive. You should ALWAYS make a starter with liquid yeast if the desired outcome is the best possible beer one can make. If you're happy with that "house character" in your beer, then by all means continue lazy practices and under-pitching.
Click to expand...

Generally yes, but it's not as black and white as "always". If you've got a very fresh pack of Belgian yeast going into a 1.030 og Tafelbier you'll decimate the yeast character if you make a starter first.

Speaking of parroting talking heads and misinformation...
 
Qhrumphf said:
Generally yes, but it's not as black and white as "always". If you've got a very fresh pack of Belgian yeast going into a 1.030 og Tafelbier you'll decimate the yeast character if you make a starter first.
Click to expand...

The same can be said for any or the sour yeasts. They don't suggest that you make starters for them and frankly speaking, my sours have been outstanding without starters. :tank:
 
grathan said:
One thing I don't understand is why homebrew shops don't make starters for you. That would be convenient. ALso if they pre-crushed your recipe and had that ready to go with any hops required as well.
Click to expand...

They pre-crush grain because most people don't want the expense of a mill and are willing to pay a higher price for crushed grain vs uncrushed grain. The footprint of a grain mill is also significantly less than if you were trying to sell numerous starters.

Finally, there is something clearly wrong here if you find making a yeast starter too difficult or time consuming that you need to pay someone else to do it. It takes at most 20 minutes, and that includes cooling and cleanup time.
 
g-star said:
Lots of ignorance flying around and mis-information being parroted in this thread.

Formal research in this area is well established and extenstive. You should ALWAYS make a starter with liquid yeast if the desired outcome is the best possible beer one can make. If you're happy with that "house character" in your beer, then by all means continue lazy practices and under-pitching.
Click to expand...

Hey g-star, do you know if there has been any research on tired yeast. FOr example if I make a starter with old yeast, is all of the new growth yeast as viable as the orginal yeast once was?
 

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