Why did my BDS get hot?

[brownni5]

Ok, I apparently can't brew dark Belgians - each time I try, they get fusel-y. Here's my latest attempt:
7 lbs pils
7 lbs Maris Otter
1 lb wheat malt
4 oz Caramunich 1
4 oz Special B
1 lb D180 at high Krausen
5 oz Piloncillo at high krausen

1 oz Sterling at 60
1 oz Mt. Hood at 60
0.5 oz Sterling at 30
1 oz Stryian Golding at 10

Pitched onto roughly half a yeast cake of Wyeast 3739 PC from a Single that turned out fabulously. 30 seconds pure O2 through a stone. Pitched at 63, but the next morning it had gotten up to about 70, and then I put it into a swamp cooler to maintain 66-67. After 5 days, fermentation slowed and I added heat to help clean up - temp set to 72 F. After 3 weeks in primary, I bottled with CB-1 and primed to 2.8 volumes. 4 weeks later, I chilled a bottle for a few days and sampled. Great carbonation, but overwhelming fusels (or what I perceive as such). Same thing 3 weeks later.

Where did I go wrong? Will that condition out?
Fermentation took off quickly and looked healthy, but did I let it jump up too quickly? That's my best guess, but I guess I don't know. I doubt what I'm getting is from the malt bill, but my next attempt I may try D90 instead of the really dark stuff.

Some of my process was in an attempt to mimic what RPI_Scotty recommends, but something along the way didn't go as planned.

Edit: OG I figure was 1.094 after the sugar, FG was 1.010.

 

[RPh_Guy]

You might consider making a proper yeast starter, and using yeast nutrients (vitamins, amino acids, zinc).

 

[brownni5]

You might consider making a proper yeast starter, and using yeast nutrients (vitamins, amino acids, zinc).

Why do you suppose a starter would be different from a cake? Just cell count? If anything, it was an over pitch. - the Single was a pretty moderate beer, so I don't assume the yeast was overly stressed. Could be I suppose.

I can't find the thread now, but it has been suggested that for Belgians, avoid nutrients to coax out some yeast- derived flavors. I have considered that as a possibility, but I've also read that wort has everything yeast needs, save maybe zinc.

 

[Dr_Jeff]

70 the next morning, would be my guess, too fast of a temperature rise, pulling the fusels out early on.

I'll add in all of the sugars in the boil, lots of people, add them along the way, I just figure, that opening the fermenter, any more than necessary gives the opportunity for infection.

My BDS's turn out wonderful, I start at ~63 for a day or so, up to 66 for a day or so, then keep upping the temperature a degree or two each day, until I get in to the mid 80's, hold it there for 3-5 days, then crash cool it to ~34 for 3-5 days.

BTW-In the past, I've gotten some to 15-16% with no stalls.
WLP-530 is my "go to" yeast of choice.

Good luck.

Put them away for six months and re-visit them at a later date.

I don't feel that this caused your problem, but I would replace the MO in you recipe with Pilsner or Munich.

 

[RPh_Guy]

too fast of a temperature rise

3739 is fine up to around 80°F; pretty sure temp isn't the problem in this case.

Why do you suppose a starter would be different from a cake? Just cell count? If anything, it was an over pitch. - the Single was a pretty moderate beer, so I don't assume the yeast was overly stressed. Could be I suppose.

It's not just about cell count; it's about vitality. Yeast are not healthy at the end of fermentation.

I can't find the thread now, but it has been suggested that for Belgians, avoid nutrients to coax out some yeast- derived flavors. I have considered that as a possibility, but I've also read that wort has everything yeast needs, save maybe zinc.

You're not using just wort. You're using wort with added sugar. This creates a nutritional deficit. I would also presume that this strain has a high nitrogen demand since it is prone to stalling.

Nutrients (amino acids, vitamins, and zinc) generally help with desirable ester production.

 

[brownni5]

Not arguing, really trying to figure this out for the future, but where do you see that 3739 is prone to stalling? I've only used it a couple times, but quite the opposite has been true - it finishes very quickly.

I had not considered yeast vitality.

 

[RPh_Guy]

You're right, I was thinking of a different strain.

 

[brownni5]

You had me questioning my reading ability!

As long as we're there, is that the reason some strains like 3724 stall? Too little nitrogen? I always add nutrients to my saisons and have never seen a stall with that yeast.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sorry about that.

is that the reason some strains like 3724 stall? Too little nitrogen?

I couldn't say with 100% certainty but that's my hypothesis, either nitrogen or other nutrient. There are very few reasons why fermentation can stall.

 

[jswillbrewforbeer]

3724 is back-pressure sensitive, according to what I've read so it prefers no more than atmospheric pressure. This apparently causes the attenuation quirk. What would describe the fusel character as? I've experienced severe cases of it, tastes like cough syrup and sharp alcohol to me. Sounds weird but it also gives me a h*** of a hangover where I have some memory loss of the night before...

 

[RPh_Guy]

3724 is back-pressure sensitive

That's 100% a myth.

 

[jswillbrewforbeer]

That's 100% a myth.

Good to know!

 

[brownni5]

http://brulosophy.com/2016/07/04/th...ison-dupont-yeast-strain-exbeeriment-results/

As stated above, I haven't seen 3724 stall, and I always use an airlock. I think a certain someone tried it without one time, it didn't stall, and voila! The yeast is back pressure sensitive!

 

[Cyclman]

So many bad things are produced in the initial 24 hours of fermentation, I think that is the most critical time to control temperature. After fermenting a single, the yeast should’ve been happy and ready to go. You oxygenated well. Temperature control is the only variable I can see causing this issue.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Did Wyeast make a typo listing the max temp at 80°F? Should we tell them it's actually something less than 70°F?

 

[Cyclman]

Interesting article might help troubleshoot: https://byo.com/article/yeast-strains-for-belgian-strong-ales/

 

[jswillbrewforbeer]

http://brulosophy.com/2016/07/04/th...ison-dupont-yeast-strain-exbeeriment-results/

As stated above, I haven't seen 3724 stall, and I always use an airlock. I think a certain someone tried it without one time, it didn't stall, and voila! The yeast is back pressure sensitive!

My mistake, wasn't trying to spread misinformation, Drew Beechum's blog post just seemed convincing at the time. As far as Fusels, theoretically they can be reduced over time by reacting with acids in the beer to form ester compounds leading to softer/rounder flavors rather than harsh alcohol notes. Can't speak to this in personal experience but I think some age could help. Hope this helps, cheers!

 

[brownni5]

Back to the initial topic - I cracked a bottle of this beer this weekend that had been cold conditioning for quite some time. Much more enjoyable. There's still much room for improvement, but so much better than before. I wouldn't mistake it for a 5% ABV beer, but the fusels are gone (or mostly so).

Seems time will heal some wounds.

 

[Qhrumphf]

The research I've seen lately on STA1 strains where the gene is inhibited (3724 seems to be in this grouping), oxygen access seems to be a factor in how active the diastatic enzyme production is. Could be why it seems to prefer open fermentation. The "back pressure" hypothesis doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Also, overpitching can lead to fusel production IIRC.