White labs lactobacillus questions

[wickerman]

This is the first time I'm attempting to use lacto (white labs), and have a few questions. I'm interested in doing some pre-boil souring and maybe a berliner with lacto pitched a day or so before the yeast. Now for the questions-
-Do I need to/should I make a starter? If so, what should the starter be made with, and how big should it be?
-Do I still need to worry about oxygen exposure (headspace, and aeration) if I'm pitching just lacto and not using grain for bugs? For a Berliner, would I just aerate before pitching the yeast?
-Can pre-boil souring be achieved at room temp, or is constant 110-115 degrees crucial?

Thanks,
wickerman

 

[CadillacAndy]

There are a couple of things to consider with your pre-boil or primary Berliner plan.

If going with a pre-boil souring technique you'll maybe want to sterilize the wort before pitcing the lacto or you risk issues with other bacteria/wild yeast being present and causing problems. If you decide to not sterilze/pastuerize the wort prior to souring, this is where you want to keep oxygen out. Purge everything with CO2 and then purge it some more. I started using a corney keg for this. Mess this setup up once and you'll never make the mistake again - unless you like sour parmesan-like berliner weisse. I personally do not. Heheheh...

You'll need to figure out if you want to sour the whole volume of wort or just part of it. I've done it pretty much every different way there is and I personally got the best results from sour mashing, but pitching a large starter of commerical lacto culture. I mash at like 152F for 40-50 mins, then cool down to 110F with cold water and pitch my decanted starter of lacto.

So to answer your questions -

I would recommend making a starter. I usually just get a 1L plastic bottle, sanitize it, add apple juice and pitch the full vial. I have no scientific reasoning or cell counts or anything, just anecdotal advice. I usually let this go until it stops building up pressure. I leave the cap loose for the first 2-3 days. I decant and only pitch like 3/4 of what's in the bottom of the bottle. Then I add more juice and let it hang around at room temp for other batches later on.

If you're pitching the lacto in to boiled wort I would probably oxygenate as normal, but would pitch more cells that normal in case the pH is lower. If you're pitching in to pre-boil soured wort, oxygenate as normal and also use lager pitching rates. The lower pH can really slow things down.

If you're going the pre-boil sour route, I would try to keep it as warm as you can. 110F seems to be the sweet spot for me.

 

[wickerman]

Thanks for the info. For the pre-boil souring, I plan to briefly boil, just to sterilize the wort, then sour, and boil again. For the Berliner, I'll either do the pre boil souring or a 15 min boil and sour before pitching yeast. Also, I do not have kegging capabilities.
Thanks,
wickerman

 

[dantheman13]

Not to contradict Andy, because I think his advice is solid, but I've had great success with BW doing pretty much the opposite of what he recommended. I pitched one vial of WLP677 into 4 gallons of wort without a starter that was boiled for 5 minutes, and left it at ambient outdoor temps (85-95F) for 1 week before pitching US-05 (rehydrated with Go Ferm). The result was a BW that was a little more sour than Bell's Oarsman Ale. I got positive reviews from several pro brewers and respectable palates.

That said, I have a lot less experience brewing BW than Andy does, so go with his advice for your first attempt.

 

[wickerman]

I guess it's just a matter of what works for you then? I asked, because I saw a thread some where (can't find it) that was very similar to dantheman13's reply. I was under the impression that this was specific to white labs lacto, because wyeast is different.
Thanks,
wickerman

 

[CadillacAndy]

I guess it's just a matter of what works for you then?

This is 100% correct.

I was under the impression that this was specific to white labs lacto, because wyeast is different.

There has been discussion about Wyeast's lacto being better and stronger than White Labs.

The way that Dan mentions is probably the safest. Meaning you don't have to worry with other bacteria turning the wort in to Parmesan cheese.

I've even go so far as attempting to culture my own lacto from various sources and using a low pH wort to try to only allow the really strong stuff to survive. It's been moderately successful.

I'd say the overall key is to use a commercial culture, keep oxygen out if not sanitizing/boiling before pitching, and give it enough time to do it's thing. Before I used the commercial culture, I was used to it being sour enough after 3 days at 80F+. The commercial culture just didn't work as quickly and actually never ended up getting as sour as I wanted. I'll give it another try at some point though.