When would you ever raise the PH?

[nman13]

Alright here goes.

I have brewed in several cities with different source waters and have always needed to adjust my mash PH down to get it in the appropriate 5.2-5.4 range. this has been the case even when brewing a beer that is high in roasted malts.

I currently brew in NYC and use the tap water here which is basically distilled/RO water. I recently brewed a milk stout here that had a ton of roasted malt and even still my mash ph only got down to about 5.3 based on my calculator.

My question is, in what scenario would anyone ever need to raise their mash PH? If i am brewing a stout with distilled water and my calculator is still showing the PH is is at 5.3, when would there be a scenario when water ph drops below appropriate range?

My second question is, if my ph is in range (ie not too low) would there ever be a scenario where i need to get my HCO higher for style consistency reasons? I guess I'm wondering if adding the baking soda is crucial to the flavor characteristic of the stout style or if it is simply added to bring PH up when needed?

 

[LKABrewer]

My water is very soft as well, and I add alkalinity to my dark beers like stouts and porters. I find stouts mashed at 5.5 are much richer and fuller than those mashed at 5.3. My $.02.

 

[nman13]

My water is very soft as well, and I add alkalinity to my dark beers like stouts and porters. I find stouts mashed at 5.5 are much richer and fuller than those mashed at 5.3. My $.02.

Got it thanks!

But other than adjusting the PH up, is there any other reason to add alkalinity (i.e does it add any other flavor characteristics for a stout?)

 

[Brettomomyces]

Adding alkalinity can combat an overly acidic stout where the pH is so low it's harsh

 

[Stillraining]

Good question.....were at 8.0ph on our well water here.. I'll never need to go up that's for sure.

Funny thing is until I got into brewing I figured all of the PNW was acetic water...not the case at all.

 

[mabrungard]

A pH of 8 means nothing with respect to brewing. It can still have virtually no alkalinity...or it could have a lot. pH doesn't tell you. Along that same line, we aren't trying to raise the pH of water, we are trying to raise the pH of wort...when necessary. If your water has very low alkalinity like the NYC water supply does, you will need to add alkalinity to the water to avoid the wort pH falling too low. Low pH does create acrid roast flavors. Having the ability to boost the mashing water alkalinity can make a big flavor improvement to roasty beers. As mentioned, we usually want low alkalinity water for brewing paler beers, but having the ability to add alkalinity in those rare occasions can help you conquer more styles.

 

[Stillraining]

A pH of 8 means nothing with respect to brewing. It can still have virtually no alkalinity...or it could have a lot. pH doesn't tell you. Along that same line, we aren't trying to raise the pH of water, we are trying to raise the pH of wort...when necessary. If your water has very low alkalinity like the NYC water supply does, you will need to add alkalinity to the water to avoid the wort pH falling too low. Low pH does create acrid roast flavors. Having the ability to boost the mashing water alkalinity can make a big flavor improvement to roasty beers. As mentioned, we usually want low alkalinity water for brewing paler beers, but having the ability to add alkalinity in those rare occasions can help you conquer more styles.

Ya I never claimed to be a Chemist or much of a numbers cruncher....our Alkaline is 96ppm what ever that translates into the equation of things. If you want to school me go for it..
Until I became a member here I new nothing about water property importance other then it being " Mountain Fresh" right!.. I just purchased test strips last week so as of yet I don't even know what I'm mashing at. No real issues ever with my beer though. From Mild Amber's to Stouts.

So I have a learning curve ahead of me.

 

[Qhrumphf]

My water is moderately alkaline (averagish 80ppm as CaCO3, with seasonal variance), and for lightly roasted beers or beers where I'm not mucking about too much with the water otherwise, then it usually falls into the 5.4 range. When I'm adding lots of things to the water for flavor, and consequently adding a fair amount of calcium, sometimes it does push the pH down lower than I'd like and I do have to recoup a bit with baking soda. But that's more the exception than the rule. Generally when I'm brewing a higher gravity, highly roasted beer at a fairly thick water to grist ratio is when I'm going to need to add alkalinity back.

Also, I wouldn't put too much stock in pH calculators when it comes to your final pH (by all means use them, but you can't assume the pH they spit out is going to be accurate). Some are better than others (I'm very fond of Martin's Bru'N Water and it's usually very accurate). But you'll be best served getting a proper pH meter and actually verifying. Especially with variance in local water, calculators can only get you so far. For example, I use monthly averages when calculating water, but I keep my eye on trends. I'm waiting for my water supply's 2015 data to come out, but I know from patterns over the last 6 months or so that alkalinity has been well above average, and have had to deliberately configure my acid additions in Bru'N Water to hit a pH 0.1 below my target, so that I get an pH in my actual target range.

Point is, actually measuring allows me to correct on the fly when I need to. Calculators are only as good as the data put into them.

 

[nman13]

If your water has very low alkalinity like the NYC water supply does, you will need to add alkalinity to the water to avoid the wort pH falling too low. Low pH does create acrid roast flavors.

Thanks, my questions still stands though. Assuming I am brewing a stout with NYC (or any low alkalinity) water, and my mash ph is where i want it to be (5.2-5.4), then does it make sense to add alkalinity (ie baking soda) to the mash? Does the baking soda add another flavor that is crucial to a stout? or is the point of adding alkalinity solely to raise the mash ph to the range you need?

 

[Qhrumphf]

Baking soda will add sodium, which you may or may not want from a flavor perspective. If you want (or are okay with) having some extra sodium in the water, baking soda is great. If you don't want the extra sodium, then there are other ways (like slaked lime) of raising the mash pH without the added sodium. Just don't fall into the calcium carbonate trap.

 

[mabrungard]

Thanks, my questions still stands though. Assuming I am brewing a stout with NYC (or any low alkalinity) water, and my mash ph is where i want it to be (5.2-5.4), then does it make sense to add alkalinity (ie baking soda) to the mash? Does the baking soda add another flavor that is crucial to a stout? or is the point of adding alkalinity solely to raise the mash ph to the range you need?

The primary goal is to raise mash pH to a desirable level. If 5.2 to 5.4 makes you happy, then no adjustment is needed.

With respect to flavor, I find that modest sodium content is beneficial in darker beers. I find that sodium makes beers a little minerally at levels above something like 75 ppm. Keeping that level below 50 ppm is fairly inconsequential in my experience.

 

[nman13]

Baking soda will add sodium, which you may or may not want from a flavor perspective.

Is sodium the only added flavor that comes from baking soda?

 

[Yooper]

Is sodium the only added flavor that comes from baking soda?

It increases the pH which does have large flavor impacts. But otherwise, you get no flavor from baking soda in the amounts you'd use in a mash.

 

[DarkStarNJ]

.... Just don't fall into the calcium carbonate trap.

Can you expand on that?

 

[Gavin C]

Can you expand on that?

Don't use CaCO3 (Chalk) under *any circumstance


*Unless you are dead set on targeting a geographic profile and like needless work. Here is how to add chalk to brewing water.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Can you expand on that?

Calcium carbonate effectively doesn't dissolve. Makes it useless as a mash additive.

 

[DarkStarNJ]

Thanks guys. For some reason i was drawing a blank on that. I do remember that from the water chemistry primer

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

... I just purchased test strips last week so as of yet I don't even know what I'm mashing at.

I may be misinterpreting this, but have you always checked your pH with pH strips?. If you have, that might explain why your pH seems fine even for really dark brews. These strips are not very accurate so your pH may have been lower than you thought. A pH meter is a good investment. Even an inexpensive one will be better than pH strips.

Edit: Oops! Right response to the wrong person. Anyway, still a point worth making.