What was wrong with this recipe?

[kstiglich]

Hi fellows,
I brewed an American Pale Ale, with the following recipe;
But finally, this beer has no body, which I supposed is for the Pilsner malt instead of Pale Malt, but I use a high PH 5.5 and my mash was enough high for obtain some unfermentables...also I got an acid flavor, but it is not an off-flavor, it is a flavor from the hops, but I do not know how to change my recipe to ensure a good fruity-citric beer, with good balance, bitter but fruity....How can I change my recipe???

I must say that for the steep/Whirpool addition of Amarillo hops, I start my chiller until I cool my wort to 149f and throw the Amarillo hops, then stand the wort for 20 minutes with those hops, keeping the same temperature, and then I started again the chiller to cool this to 68ºF.

I use temp control fermentation, and I do not feel off flavors, but the flavor of the beer is disgusting.


For 5 Gallons
OG 1.055
FG 1.009
ABV 6.0%
IBU 44
-------------------------------------------------
8.5lbs Pilsner Malt
15oz Munich Malt
7oz Caramel 40EBC
-------------------------------------------------
Mash with PH 5.5 @ 153ºf for 60 minutes
-------------------------------------------------
Boil for 90 minutes
Hops at
0.28oz Centennial at 60 min
0.28oz Amarillo at 20 min
0.14oz Simcoe at 20 min
0.07oz Cascade at 20 min
0.28oz Amarillo at 15 min
0.14oz Simcoe at 15 min
0.07oz Cascade at 15 min
0.28oz Amarillo at 10 min
0.14oz Simcoe at 10 min
0.07oz Cascade at 10 min
0.28oz Amarillo at 5 min
0.14oz Simcoe at 5 min
0.07oz Cascade at 5 min
0.9oz Amarillo Steep/Whirpool
0.9oz Amarillo Dry Hop 10 days
-----------------------------------------
Yeast US-05 rehydrated

OG 1.055 (14.2 Brix) Pitched at 68ºf
Fermentation for 15 days at 66ºf
Final Gravity 1.009 (6.0 Brix)

 

[acidrain]

For maltiness, I would change the pils to domestic 2-row,
For the hops... you have a lot going on there.
Normally, when tweaking a recipe, I only change one thing at a time.
In this case, I would do something like this:
.7 oz any universal bittering hop at 60 (magnum?)
.5 oz Amarillo at 20.
.5 oz Cascade at 10
.5 oz Amarillo at 5
.5 oz Cascade at flameout
1 oz either Citra or Cascade dryhop

Here is one of my best pale ales:
Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 9.28 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Vol: 7.28 gal
Final Bottling Vol: 5.00 gal
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage


Date: 01/02/14
Brewer: Acidrain
Equipment: Keggles
Efficiency: 60.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 76.4 %

11 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 86.8 %
1 lbs 4.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 9.4 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 3 3.8 %
0.75 oz Magnum [14.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 28.4 IBUs
0.50 oz Tettnang [4.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 5 3.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Tettnang [4.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 6 2.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Willamette [5.50 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 7 0.6 IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) [50.28 ml] Yeast 8 -
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 9 0.0 IBUs

Est Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.3 %
Bitterness: 34.4 IBUs
Est Color: 6.1 SRM

Keep in mind I have a lot of losses, and pretty low inefficiencies, so it will need to be scaled to actual equipment.

 

[Yooper]

To have "no body" is almost impossible with that recipe- you should have a nice medium body based on the recipe so I'd look at carbonation techniques there.

How did you measure the pH of the mash? 5.5 is a bit on the high side for an APA, and if you're getting acidic flavors from it, that is generally from a low (5.2) mash pH.

There are very little hops in there, from the quick glance but I didn't add up all the additions.

I think there is something wrong with maybe the water or something if this beer is "disgusting". It looks like a bland run of the mill ale, but not bad at all.

 

[Happywanderer]

That's 4oz of hops in that recipe ... which is more than what I put in my american pale ales. (I put 3oz in mine).

I'd say water? What type of water are you using?

Plus you are using non-american malts in an american ale? (I'm thinking using the Pilsner malt might be playing a role here as well). I use 2-row pale, some crystal (40L and 20L) and some carafoam for my american pale ales.

 

[snowtires]

Is it dry like makes your lips pucker?

 

[kstiglich]

To have "no body" is almost impossible with that recipe- you should have a nice medium body based on the recipe so I'd look at carbonation techniques there.

How did you measure the pH of the mash? 5.5 is a bit on the high side for an APA, and if you're getting acidic flavors from it, that is generally from a low (5.2) mash pH.

There are very little hops in there, from the quick glance but I didn't add up all the additions.

I think there is something wrong with maybe the water or something if this beer is "disgusting". It looks like a bland run of the mill ale, but not bad at all.

I have a Milwaukee MW102 PH Meter and temperature probe. It work great and it measure PH by 0.01. I measure mash PH 10 minutes after mashing malts and typically adjust with 1 or 2 ml of lactic acid. But I have recipes using 4 or 5ml of lactic acid that were great beers. I measure PH at mashing temp and cooling a sample of wort at room temp and this ph meter works perfect in both cases.

For carbonation I keg my beer and used force carbonation. In that case I have a freeze at 41f and force carbonation at 13 PSI for 10 days. Standard carbonation, not quick carbonation used.

 

[kstiglich]

That's 4oz of hops in that recipe ... which is more than what I put in my american pale ales. (I put 3oz in mine).

I'd say water? What type of water are you using?

Plus you are using non-american malts in an american ale? (I'm thinking using the Pilsner malt might be playing a role here as well). I use 2-row pale, some crystal (40L and 20L) and some carafoam for my american pale ales.

I use 100% RO water and adjust it with salts. In this case I use;
MASH 26 Liters
Gypsum 3gr
Calcium Chloride 2gr
Epsom salts 2gr

SPARGE 3.4L
Gypsum 0.4 gr
Calcium Chloride 0.3gr
Epsom Salts 0.3gr

 

[Happywanderer]

That's a fairly good water profile for a pale ale from what I see.

Could have a tad more Calcium, but your close enough to the 50 mark on that.

Am I reading your recipe correctly? You mashed with 26L and only sparged with 3.4L? Is that fly sparging?

Also you used US-05. Try WLP001. It is a good neutral yeast that is great for pale ales.

I'd say swap the Pilsner malt for 2-row and see what happens.

 

[kstiglich]

That's a fairly good water profile for a pale ale from what I see.

Could have a tad more Calcium, but your close enough to the 50 mark on that.

Am I reading your recipe correctly? You mashed with 26L and only sparged with 3.4L? Is that fly sparging?

Also you used US-05. Try WLP001. It is a good neutral yeast that is great for pale ales.

I'd say swap the Pilsner malt for 2-row and see what happens.

I have a Braumeister 20L, therefore it is recommended to mash with large quantity of water and sparge with less water.
I think it would be the pilsner malt, but previously I have used Citra and Amarillo, with "bad" results...but cascade gave me good results...So I would like to know if maybe there is a good mix between Citra, Amarillo, Cascade and Simcoe, in order to obtain a great flavor profile, enoughly balanced with that citric/peachy flavor.... Do you had any good recipe mixing these hops?

Regarding Yeast, I used US-05 for many pale ales and it is pretty neutral, I live in Peru thus only using dry yeast due to availability.

 

[Happywanderer]

Ok.

Since you're stuck with dry yeast that's a constant.

To get a good balance with those hops, I'd recommend brewing a batch and splitting it in two.

This requires two fermenters.

In one batch, mix two hops together and check the outcome.

In the other batch, mix two more hops together and check the outcome.

OR - make hop tea and try to find a combo that suits your palate.

For me, I keep hops simple. I typically go with just 2 hops that I'm reasonably certain will work well together based upon their aroma/bittering profiles and the style of beer.

For example: Acidrain's response has two recipes listed. His second recipe calls for Magnum which is a neutral bittering hop, Williamette, and Tettnang. Willie and Tettnang are both described as pleasant and spicy with Willie being spicy and floral. Those sound like they'd play nice together.

Your recipe uses:
Centennial:Medium intensity floral and citrus (lemon) tones
Simcoe: Unique passionfruit, pine, earth and citrus characteristics
Cascade: Medium intense floral, citrus and grapefruit tones
Amarillo: Floral, tropical, and citrus (lemon, orange and grapefruit) characteristics

So you're getting a lot of citrus in there but also a mix of floral, pine, earth, and tropical.

Lots of good resources available to find out hop profiles.

https://www.hopunion.com/aroma-wheel/

I also will find recipes for commercial beers I enjoy and build a base clone then experiment for subsequent batches.

I made a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale clone which is delicious and uses Magnum, Perle, and Cascade. Beautiful beer. I then made a tweak and am using just Nugget and Cascade. So far so good.

 

[kh54s10]

Also you used US-05. Try WLP001. It is a good neutral yeast that is great for pale ales.



I'd say swap the Pilsner malt for 2-row and see what happens.

US05 and WLP001 are basically the same yeast. Changing the yeast among these two would make very little difference.


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[FourSeasonAngler]

I'd say two things, if you're going low gravity use 2 row vs. Pilsner and skip the Simcoe in that recipe all together.

You'd need a high gravity beer with delicate hops to make pilsner malt a dominant flavor component. In a low gravity beer all those hops are harshing out the malt profile.

Simcoe is big and piney with some harshness to it if used in excess. If you're looking for citrus juice type hop character stick with Amarillo & Cascade or Amarillo and Centennial and only use them very late in the boil, like at 10 minutes and later with a good whirlpool steep.

 

[kstiglich]

It is Frustrating.... I will brew a new beer using Pale Malt, and I will use tap water filtered with a high grade carbon filter, then I want to find the best recipe to obtain a hoppy Pale Ale with a citrus flavor, not only citrus aroma... therefore, I know that probably if it was so simple, I would have to brew an Smash of Citra, an Smash of Amarillo, an Smash of Simcoe, etc.. until I found the exact flavor I expect in my beer. Unfortunately, it is too long way, but probably it is the best way to know the exact flavor and aroma of each hop. If you have to brew an Smash with any of this hops, using Magnum for bittering, which hop would you prefer...

I mean, for 5 gallon beer.
OG 1.053
FG 1.057
ABV 6%

9.9 pounds Pale Malt
0.88 pounds Caramel 20L
0.55 pounds Caramel 60L

0.6oz Magnum at 60min
1 oz XXXX Hop at 15 min
0.5 oz XXXX hop at 5 min
1 oz XXXX hop for Dry hop 5 days

US-05 yeast
Mash at 154f for 60 minutes

Which XXX hop would you use?
I already used this recipe with Cascade and it is good, but I would would like to try any of the other citric hops....
I would ferment at 66ºF or 68ºF for 14 days and force carbonation for 2.5

 

[Happywanderer]

Cascade. Love it. But it is milder citrus in my opinion. Perhaps Citra. It is higher AA than Cascade though so you might want to adjust amounts to get same IBU.


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[Happywanderer]

Also, if you like good head retention you can add about 5% carafoam. Great stuff for nice lasting lacy heads.


I'd also leave it in primary a bit longer ... I like to let it set 21 days in primary. Dry hop the last five days.

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[FourSeasonAngler]

My palate perceives a number of "citrus" flavors.

Orange - classic orange juice or sweet citrus with only a hint of bitter
Tangerine - More sweet than orange with a more delicate overall character
Minneola - In your face juicy, sweet, citrus
Lemon - slightly sour, acidic, and a bit bitter, very aromatic
Lime - very sour, acidic and delicately bitter
Grapefruit - strong acidic and sour citrus, very aromatic

For each of those types of citrus flavors I perceive I can think of a hop or two to give me that quality. For some citrus flavors I try to achieve in a beer I will layer the hops in my boil & whirlpool to get what I need out of the hops.

You also have to remember that the malt and yeast play a role in the hop character you achieve. It's tough to get a hop to present as juicy sweet citrus unless you have some sweet malt character in the beer and your yeast leaves a clean but maybe slightly fruity flavor profile.

All of these things will work together to give you your final product, so crafting a recipe to give you that hop character you're looking for will encompass more than just considering the hops...

 

[eric19312]

I am guessing there are differences between the Braumeister and the batch sparge in a cooler technique I use but your malt bill seems on the low side for a 6% ABV beer. Are you measuring OG of a cooled sample with a calibrated hydrometer? One explanation for a thin beer could be you are starting with thin wort.

You may also want to try adjusting the mash temp up a couple degrees at a time if you stick with US05--which is what I would do until you get dialed in with that yeast.

Or leave your mash temp alone and ferment with S04 instead. This will give you a bit less attenuation. Ferment on the cool side of the optimal range to reduce esters and keep the beer tasting sufficiently American.

How are you controlling fermentation temperature anyway? No matter what you do to make wort fermentation flaws can kill you in the end.

 

[kstiglich]

I tried the beer again, and I found it better. The last time I tried it was connected to the CO2 tank carbonating, and today it was disconnected, so I have to understand that after carbonating it has to stabilize?
Regarding head retention, I think it is a grains problem, because I used pilsner malt, but also I found it has a low carbonation.
I used to carbonate at 12PSI and 32f, but recently I move my freeze to 41f and tried 13PSI, but I found it is under carbonated, and it should be a reason to low head retention. I just move my CO2 to 16PSI, so I will carbonate a little more and try in some days....

I will let you know. Anyway this saturday I will brew a new APA with the following recipe.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 26.40 l
Post Boil Volume: 24.75 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 21.00 l
Bottling Volume: 20.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 18.6 EBC
Estimated IBU: 39.1 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 87.5 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
4.50 kg Pale Malt Patagonia (6.9 EBC) Grain 1 90.9 %
0.45 kg Maltexco Caramelo 120 EBC (120.0 EBC) Grain 2 9.1 %
15.00 g Magnum [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 3 18.3 IBUs
20.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 4 14.8 IBUs
1.05 Items Chiller (Boil 20.0 mins) Other 5 -
0.50 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 6 -
15.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 7 6.0 IBUs
10.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 8 0.0 IBUs
1.1 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05 Yeast 9 -
32.00 g Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 4.0 Days Hop 10 0.0 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 4.95 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 23.00 l of water at 70.3 C 66.7 C 60 min
Mash Out Add 0.00 l of water and heat to 75.6 C 75.6 C 10 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 6.24 l water at 75.6 C

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

^ That should make a fine APA, a bit on the bitter side but APAs like Alpha King and Zombie Dust hold up well to the heavy hop charge.

Please come back with tasting notes after this one is finished, it would be great to know that you adjusted your recipe in the right direction.