What % setting on PID for Boil?

[tennesseean_87]

My eBIAB is just about done and I think I'll have time to try my first batch Thursday evening. I still have a few little projects to finish, but it should be doable.

My main question is what do you set your PID to for the boil? I've got a 15.5 gallon kettle with a 5500w element and I'm shooting for 3.5 gallons post boil to start with. Testing with just water it seems to stop rolling at 80%, but that seems pretty low for such a powerful element.

Also, will a reflectix wrap melt if used during the boil?

 

[joebob296]

I put mine on manual and set it 100.

 

[iijakii]

Reflectix will not melt at boiling, no. And for my 7gal preboils i set at 100% until boil, back off to 70ish and then bump up to 80 once i throw my IC in at the last few mins.

 

[jmitchell3]

reflectix will not melt at boiling, no. And for my 7gal preboils i set at 100% until boil, back off to 70ish and then bump up to 80 once i throw my ic in at the last few mins.

+1

 

[hio3791]

I also have a 15.5 gal kettle with a 5500 element, no insulation. It can maintain 5 gal batches at rolling boil at 55% and 10 gal batches at 70%.

As others have said, I set it to 100% to come up to boil then drop it down. I'll bump it up to 85% when I start recirculation.

In my kettle, the element is barely covered at 3.5 gal. Have you made sure the element is submerged at that volume?

If you're not getting a good boil at that volume, you may not be getting full power at the element. You might want to check, carefully, the voltage at the element and, when unplugged, its resistance.

 

[augiedoggy]

My main question is what do you set your PID to for the boil? I've got a 15.5 gallon kettle with a 5500w element and I'm shooting for 3.5 gallons post boil to start with. Testing with just water it seems to stop rolling at 80%, but that seems pretty low for such a powerful element.

Also, will a reflectix wrap melt if used during the boil?

I use 75% with a 4500w element for 6 gallons in my 15 gallon kettle, 80% with 12 gallons... dimensions of kettle will have an impact too if its taller than it is wide you will need less % of heating to reach the same intensity boil.
BTW OP your "that seems pretty low for such a powerful element" statement above imply s you might have something backwards? you should still have boiling with 5 gallons at as low as 50% There are people getting a boil on this amount with as little as 2000w and 3000w (should be around 60% equivalent) boils 5 gallons fine (its a weaker boil but still a boil) the higher % you go the longer the element stays on (or more often).

 

[dmcman73]

Reflectix will not melt at boiling, no. And for my 7gal preboils i set at 100% until boil, back off to 70ish and then bump up to 80 once i throw my IC in at the last few mins.

+1. I do the same. Set to 100% until a rolling boil is achieved and then scale back to get a nice boil.

Think of this as the same as a gas stove, you have the flame on high to boil and then once it's boiling, you turn the gas down a little to keep it at a perfect boil.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Thanks, guys. I think I will check the resistance tonight from the plug. What should I be looking for on a 5.5kw element?

When I turn it down to 70, I can see bubbles coming off the element, but not any sort of aggressive roll. I was wondering if the rolling action might be different with an element in the middle of the liquid as opposed to heat coming from the very bottom. I did mount the element as low as possible, so it will be submerged. It's a Bayou Classic kettle, for those curious about dimensions.

 

[-CHRIS-]

I put mine on manual and set it 100.

I agree, as far as I can tell there is no such thing as too much boiloff. I usually shut the element off a few times to get through the hot break, but other than that full speed ahead on my keggle with both 5 and 10 gallon batches.

Chris

 

[dmcman73]

I agree, as far as I can tell there is no such thing as too much boiloff. I usually shut the element off a few times to get through the hot break, but other than that full speed ahead on my keggle with both 5 and 10 gallon batches.

Chris

Actually, there is. If you calculated to collect say 11.5 gallons of wort into your kettle with your grain bill in anticipation that you'll boil off 1.5 gallons but boil off 2.5 gallons from a very aggressive boil, you're going to be off on your gravity.

Also, there was a post on here somewhere that stated that boiling too vigorously and creating more boil off than you calculated can also introduce some undesirable flavors into the beer.

You just want a nice rolling boil, not a boil where it's about to shoot like a geyser, no need for that. You want to boil off at a gradual rate otherwise why boil for 60 or 90 minutes? That's like saying why cook a turkey in the oven at 325 degrees, crank it to 450 degrees to cook it faster. You may cook it faster but it's not going to taste the same.

 

[BeardedBrews]

Thanks, guys. I think I will check the resistance tonight from the plug. What should I be looking for on a 5.5kw element?

When I turn it down to 70, I can see bubbles coming off the element, but not any sort of aggressive roll. I was wondering if the rolling action might be different with an element in the middle of the liquid as opposed to heat coming from the very bottom. I did mount the element as low as possible, so it will be submerged. It's a Bayou Classic kettle, for those curious about dimensions.

In my 15.5g keg I'm running 100% up to boil, and then dial back to 55% for a 6 gallon batch (7 gallon boil). I think there was a Brew Strong podcast where they cite something that calls for an 8-15% boil off rate.

As far as the appearance, it will start with bubbles forming on the element, and then hot break forming, and then I always see the outline of the element in the hot break as that column is heating faster and circulating the wort. Once the boil gets going it has a nice roll on the top, possibly more noticeable above the element.

If you measure your element, a 240v 5500w element should have a resistance of 10.4 ohms on a multimeter.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Awesome. Thanks.

 

[TexasWine]

For 7.5 gallon boils I will run at 2250 watts, one element at full blast and the other at 50% (1500 + 750). But everything is full steam ahead until boiling is reached.

Also, yes you can boil off too much. For example, if you boil off 1 gallon of a 3 gallon boil, that in most situations is deemed excessive. The down side would be potential off flavors from concentrated minerals.

 

[tennesseean_87]

So that's basically 50% of my 5.5kw. I don't think I am getting that much juice, so I will have to double check resistance and voltage after work.

 

[Jaybird]

This may be a tad off topic. I am fairly new to the world of Electric for my Boil kettle. Been using electric for my HLT for 14+ years now but the BK is new to me. So why are you guys using manual and setting a % and not using the PID Loop? I have yet to switch mine into Manual for anything but playing around. I have done a few batches so far (12 gallons) using the electric PID control panel I built and have yet to see a reason to use manual. I set it to 210 and let it rip. Help me out here. Be nice! I'm new here LOL

Cheers
Jay

 

[iijakii]

This may be a tad off topic. I am fairly new to the world of Electric for my Boil kettle. Been using electric for my HLT for 14+ years now but the BK is new to me. So why are you guys using manual and setting a % and not using the PID Loop? I have yet to switch mine into Manual for anything but playing around. I have done a few batches so far (12 gallons) using the electric PID control panel I built and have yet to see a reason to use manual. I set it to 210 and let it rip. Help me out here. Be nice! I'm new here LOL

Cheers
Jay

Your element might be sized nicely for 12gallon boils, but try it fullbore on a 6gal boil sometime and see how much boiloff you get!

 

[Jaybird]

Your element might be sized nicely for 12gallon boils, but try it fullbore on a 6gal boil sometime and see how much boiloff you get!

Gotcha.. So its not for boil over, its for boil off. Gotcha! Well that makes sense!

Cheers
Jay

 

[Firewalker11]

Depends on the humidity and temp outside, 60% to 75% for 9 gallons with a 5500W ultra high density element.

I do a super aggressive boil now and loose 2 gallons of water in 90 minutes.

 

[kal]

I've got a 15.5 gallon kettle with a 5500w element and I'm shooting for 3.5 gallons post boil to start with. Testing with just water it seems to stop rolling at 80%, but that seems pretty low for such a powerful element.

For what it's worth, large amounts of water don't really produce a rolling boil.

Try it with wort. It'll be a lot more violent. I would expect you'd be able to run as low as 50% easily or possibly lower.

I typically start with 13.9 gallons pre-boil and set my boil PID to 85% with a 5500W element. Boil's very vigorous:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s-PUbKKit8[/ame]

A better video:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BCBVuQ5IKud

Kal

 

[tennesseean_87]

Thanks for the post and all the info on your site. Maybe the fact that I am used to split boils on a stove top has given me improper expectations regarding roll. I will watch the videos.

 

[joebob296]

Actually, there is. If you calculated to collect say 11.5 gallons of wort into your kettle with your grain bill in anticipation that you'll boil off 1.5 gallons but boil off 2.5 gallons from a very aggressive boil, you're going to be off on your gravity.

Also, there was a post on here somewhere that stated that boiling too vigorously and creating more boil off than you calculated can also introduce some undesirable flavors into the beer.

You just want a nice rolling boil, not a boil where it's about to shoot like a geyser, no need for that. You want to boil off at a gradual rate otherwise why boil for 60 or 90 minutes? That's like saying why cook a turkey in the oven at 325 degrees, crank it to 450 degrees to cook it faster. You may cook it faster but it's not going to taste the same.

Except, a boil is 212(depending on altitude) regardless if it a rolling boil, or thunderous boil. The temperature is the exact same. Just curious, can you find the link that you were referring to? Now, I do 5 gallon batches and have a 2000W element, so I only get a rolling boil. But I don't see how to much boil will impart off flavours...yes you can boil more off then necessary, but you can also compensate for this in the mash. I'm my experience more water in the mash will yield a higher efficiency because more sugar can be absorbed without reaching the saturation point. Especially in high gravity beers. Then just boil off until you hit your desired volume.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Well, I never got around to measuring resistance, but just went ahead and brewed. I did most of the boil at 55% and boiled off way to much (also forgot to account for 90 min boil). Using .125 gal/lb grain absorption and 3/4 gallon boil-off for a 3.5 gallon batch I ended up with 2.68ish gallons. Next time I'll probably go with 45%.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Well, I never got around to measuring resistance, but just went ahead and brewed. I did most of the boil at 55% and boiled off way to much (also forgot to account for 90 min boil). Using .125 gal/lb grain absorption and 3/4 gallon boil-off for a 3.5 gallon batch I ended up with 2.68ish gallons. Next time I'll probably go with 45%.

My guess would be that you need a larger pre boil volume, and not less power.

3/4 gallon boil off for a 15 gallon kettle over 90 minutes seems low to me.

Boil off is more a factor of kettle size, not batch size....so doing a small batch in a large kettle will result in a large boil off as percentage of batch.

Small batch brewing is tricky in this regard.

 

[kal]

+1 to the above.

I typically end up with 12 gallons post boil and boil off 1.9 gallons/hr, so I start with 13.9 gallons pre-boil for 60 min boils or 14.9 if it's a 90 min boil.

Kal

 

[tennesseean_87]

For 7.5 gallon boils I will run at 2250 watts, one element at full blast and the other at 50% (1500 + 750). But everything is full steam ahead until boiling is reached.

Also, yes you can boil off too much. For example, if you boil off 1 gallon of a 3 gallon boil, that in most situations is deemed excessive. The down side would be potential off flavors from concentrated minerals.

Your element might be sized nicely for 12gallon boils, but try it fullbore on a 6gal boil sometime and see how much boiloff you get!

My guess would be that you need a larger pre boil volume, and not less power.

3/4 gallon boil off for a 15 gallon kettle over 90 minutes seems low to me.

Boil off is more a factor of kettle size, not batch size....so doing a small batch in a large kettle will result in a large boil off as percentage of batch.

Small batch brewing is tricky in this regard.

+1 to the above.

I typically end up with 12 gallons post boil and boil off 1.9 gallons/hr, so I start with 13.9 gallons pre-boil for 60 min boils or 14.9 if it's a 90 min boil.

Kal

There's some conflicting info here. I guess I always assumed you'd want a little less boil-off for smaller batches. Maybe I need to reconsider that.

Kal, do you use the same power for both 5 and 10 gallon batches?

I hope it won't be an issue to need that much extra water. I usually do small batches, but double sized mashes split into two boils (see link in my sig). I got the big kettle so I can do full-volume mashes for up to 8 or 9 gallon batches and split them into smaller boil sizes. The biggest batches I do are 5 gallon, so I hope this whole set-up doesn't end up being a flop for the way I brew.

I guess I'm planning to both use more water initially and tone down the boil some.

 

[kal]

Kal, do you use the same power for both 5 and 10 gallon batches?

No. Less power is needed to boil a 5 gallon batch as vigorously as a 10 gallon batch.

Kal

 

[wilserbrewer]

I hope it won't be an issue .

I doubt you're higher boil off for small batches will be an issue,
Will likely boost efficiency a tad as well....

Note that TW used "potential",
The down side would be potential off flavors from concentrated minerals.

 

[Zepth]

For about 11g preboil I usually use between 55-80% on a 4100w element to maintain a boil. Depends on outside temperature and if I've blanketed the kettle on that particular day.

Why does everyone give it the full bore 100% to reach a boil when you have a PID? Maybe I've been the one doing things wrong, but maybe I'm a trendsetter. I usually set my PID just shy of the boil point. 98.5 C, 209.3F to be exact. This has (so far) always led to quite a foam buildup and retreat as the controller maintains that temperature. It seems as though it's creating a boil right next to the element as the main wort reaches the set point, causing some hot break, then cutting power. When it stops foaming, I set my boil % and life is good. I have yet to have a boil over or close call using this method nor do I need to watch the kettle like a hawk during that narrow window of time.

 

[kal]

Why does everyone give it the full bore 100% to reach a boil when you have a PID? Maybe I've been the one doing things wrong, but maybe I'm a trendsetter. I usually set my PID just shy of the boil point. 98.5 C, 209.3F to be exact. This has (so far) always led to quite a foam buildup and retreat as the controller maintains that temperature. It seems as though it's creating a boil right next to the element as the main wort reaches the set point, causing some hot break, then cutting power. When it stops foaming, I set my boil % and life is good. I have yet to have a boil over or close call using this method nor do I need to watch the kettle like a hawk during that narrow window of time.

Many do this, including myself. Been doing it since 2009. It's part of my brew day step by step instructions in the boil section.

I turn the PID to automatic mode and set the temp to 208F and turn on my alarm. The PID runs at 100% to heat the wort to 208F and then holds while the alarm sounds. I then switch over to manual at about 85% and stir, to avoid boil overs.

This has worked well for me as I never get a boilover either (boilovers usually happen when you're distracted/not watching).

Kal

 

[tennesseean_87]

No. Less power is needed to boil a 5 gallon batch as vigorously as a 10 gallon batch.

Kal

So it seems I can use less power for a 3 gallon batch than users are reporting they use on a 5 gal or 7 gallon or whatever.

I doubt you're higher boil off for small batches will be an issue,
Will likely boost efficiency a tad as well....

Note that TW used "potential",
The down side would be potential off flavors from concentrated minerals.

The issue I'm worried about is using all that water in a full-volume mash might be limiting in the size batch I can do (when I'm doing higher volume or higher gravity or both). I guess I could always top up preboil or do a little pour-over sparge.

For about 11g preboil I usually use between 55-80% on a 4100w element to maintain a boil. Depends on outside temperature and if I've blanketed the kettle on that particular day.

So from this I'll take your average of 68% for an 11 gallon batch. If I'm doing a 3 gallon batch, that's just over 1/4 the size of your batch, so I'm guessing I can use significantly less power, especially since I've got 3 layers of reflectix around my kettle.

Many do this, including myself. Been doing it since 2009. It's part of my brew day step by step instructions in the boil section.

I turn the PID to automatic mode and set the temp to 208F and turn on my alarm. The PID runs at 100% to heat the wort to 208F and then holds while the alarm sounds. I then switch over to manual at about 85% and stir, to avoid boil overs.

This has worked well for me as I never get a boilover either (boilovers usually happen when you're distracted/not watching).

Kal

I started another thread with some PID questions I have, and this is one of them. Is there a way to set my boil alarm after I've set my alarm for mash without a hard reset? You're using two different PIDs, but since I'm single vessel I'm using the same one.

 

[kal]

So it seems I can use less power for a 3 gallon batch than users are reporting they use on a 5 gal or 7 gallon or whatever.

Correct.

I started another thread with some PID questions I have, and this is one of them. Is there a way to set my boil alarm after I've set my alarm for mash without a hard reset? You're using two different PIDs, but since I'm single vessel I'm using the same one.

I'm not sure what PID you're using but you should be able to simply change the alarm value. There shouldn't be any need for a hard reset. There would be no logical reason why the manufacturer would require the PID to be powered off/on to change a value.

Kal

 

[Ethanfox]

My two zinc disks: if you have sufficient excess wattage (to the point that you can maintain a strong boil at 70% power), I'd recommend increasing sparge water volume (or conduct additional batch sparge infusions) to extract more sugars from the mash. Stop sparging when your runoff drops below ~1.010 sg or ph rises above ~5.8. You will have a larger pre-boil volume, so to reach your target post boil volume, just increase the power to the heating element (higher boil off rate).

Tests should be conducted to determine how changes in the power level affects boil off rate (to ensure target post boil volume is achieved). Or if you're a math wizard, just calculate it beforehand.

This should increase your brewhouse efficiency. While this could result in overshooting your OG, alternatively, you can adjust your recipe based on the higher efficiency and save money on malt. Granted, the effort to squeak out a few extra % points in efficiency is rewarded more for much larger batches - but for those number crunchers out there, it's a fun challenge that can provide "bragging rights."

 

[tennesseean_87]

Correct.


I'm not sure what PID you're using but you should be able to simply change the alarm value. There shouldn't be any need for a hard reset. There would be no logical reason why the manufacturer would require the PID to be powered off/on to change a value.

Kal

It seems strange to me, too, but that's how it worked. It's the Auber SYL-2362.

My two zinc disks: if you have sufficient excess wattage (to the point that you can maintain a strong boil at 70% power), I'd recommend increasing sparge water volume (or conduct additional batch sparge infusions) to extract more sugars from the mash. Stop sparging when your runoff drops below ~1.010 sg or ph rises above ~5.8. You will have a larger pre-boil volume, so to reach your target post boil volume, just increase the power to the heating element (higher boil off rate).

Tests should be conducted to determine how changes in the power level affects boil off rate (to ensure target post boil volume is achieved). Or if you're a math wizard, just calculate it beforehand.

This should increase your brewhouse efficiency. While this could result in overshooting your OG, alternatively, you can adjust your recipe based on the higher efficiency and save money on malt. Granted, the effort to squeak out a few extra % points in efficiency is rewarded more for much larger batches - but for those number crunchers out there, it's a fun challenge that can provide "bragging rights."

I'm doing full volume BIAB, so no sparge. I just got 85% eff, so no worries there. I think if I do some bigger batches, fitting all the extra water in for full volume will be more a concern than eeking out a few extra eff points.

 

[Ethanfox]

I'm doing full volume BIAB, so no sparge. I just got 85% eff, so no worries there.

85% with a no sparge BIAB - nice!

 

[BeardedBrews]

I'm doing full volume BIAB, so no sparge. I just got 85% eff, so no worries there.

85% is quite high, if you've got any secrets that haven't been discussed here I know everyone would love to hear!

 

[Brew52]

I use 55% to 60% in manual mode to maintain a nice boil using a 5500 watt/240v straight element with a starting volume of 7.25 gallons in a 15.5 gallon keggle with the Auber 2352 PID.

 

[augiedoggy]

I use 55% to 60% in manual mode to maintain a nice boil using a 5500 watt/240v straight element with a starting volume of 7.25 gallons in a 15.5 gallon keggle with the Auber 2352 PID.

That makes sense...It would likely just be a weaker boil than some seem to like for a higher boiloff... I adjusted my boil to achieve a 1 gallon per hr boiloff myself. plus every element varies in actual output quite a bit... My 4500w elements range from 4485w to as little as 4026w.

 

[tennesseean_87]

85% with a no sparge BIAB - nice!

85% is quite high, if you've got any secrets that haven't been discussed here I know everyone would love to hear!

Thanks, guys! I don't think I'm doing anything out of the ordinary; malt conditioning and super tight milling with Corona mill, recirculating, full volume mash. I don't leave much in the kettle (paint strainer to filter hops, but other trub goes in the fermenter). Maybe that inflates my number a bit. I also got really high eff last time I brewed with wheat, so maybe the bag of wheat I got has better extract than the software thinks it does. Otherwise I can't say.

Edit: I did a bit of a protein rest at 135is (I think 10 minutes) before ramping up to a 150 sach rest for about 50 minutes, then ramping up to 170 before pulling the grain. Maybe that helped.

 

[augiedoggy]

Thanks, guys! I don't think I'm doing anything out of the ordinary; malt conditioning and super tight milling with Corona mill, recirculating, full volume mash. I don't leave much in the kettle (paint strainer to filter hops, but other trub goes in the fermenter). Maybe that inflates my number a bit. I also got really high eff last time I brewed with wheat, so maybe the bag of wheat I got has better extract than the software thinks it does. Otherwise I can't say.

Edit: I did a bit of a protein rest at 135is (I think 10 minutes) before ramping up to a 150 sach rest for about 50 minutes, then ramping up to 170 before pulling the grain. Maybe that helped.

Just something you might be experiencing, Probably not, I dont know but...

If your using a refractometer instead of a hydrometer, a cloudy sample can yield false results because it will usually read higher. at least thats what I found. If I wait to take my sample from the bottom of the kettle after draining most of my wort to the fermenter I find my gravity readings are usually higher than when I take a clear sample. I no longer rely one one sample reading because of this is I forget to take the reading from the top before draining through my chiller.

 

[tennesseean_87]

This was a hydrometer sample. I still need to buy a refractometer.