Wet Cardboard Aftertaste

[kupula]

I know there are several posts on this subject, but I wanted to describe my method and get some feedback. I had brewed 3 batched previously with no issues, but the last 2 batches I made had the bad aftertaste of oxidized beer, one of which is undrinkable.

The first batch I had in the primary for 2 weeks, and secondary for a little over a month. My secondary fermenter is a 6 gal glass carboy. I first noticed on this batch that my siphon was introducing small bubbles when racking between vessels. When I bottled, I tasted it, and it was actually really good, no hint of bad aftertaste. This batch is now undrinkable.

The second batch was primary for 1 week, and secondary for 3 weeks. Same bubbles in siphon. Tasted fine at bottling.

For these 2 batches I also used the bottle filler that came with my kit for the first time.

I have heard that having the extra 1 gallon of head space on the secondary is not good for the beer. Would this have any impact?

Could this all be attributed to the auto siphon? I am a little doubtful, as the beer tasted fine at bottling. I have since bought a replacement siphon, which I am using on my current in-process batch of beer.

Could it be my method of bottle filling? When using the filler, it seemed like there was a lot of back pressure and it was causing foaming of the beer as it filled the bottles. The first three batches I bottled straight from the spigot on the bottling bucket.

Thanks for the help and input. I really want to get this right so I can start enjoying my beer again!

 

[jetmac]

I know there are several posts on this subject, but I wanted to describe my method and get some feedback. I had brewed 3 batched previously with no issues, but the last 2 batches I made had the bad aftertaste of oxidized beer, one of which is undrinkable.

The first batch I had in the primary for 2 weeks, and secondary for a little over a month. My secondary fermenter is a 6 gal glass carboy. I first noticed on this batch that my siphon was introducing small bubbles when racking between vessels. When I bottled, I tasted it, and it was actually really good, no hint of bad aftertaste. This batch is now undrinkable.

The second batch was primary for 1 week, and secondary for 3 weeks. Same bubbles in siphon. Tasted fine at bottling.

For these 2 batches I also used the bottle filler that came with my kit for the first time.

I have heard that having the extra 1 gallon of head space on the secondary is not good for the beer. Would this have any impact?

Could this all be attributed to the auto siphon? I am a little doubtful, as the beer tasted fine at bottling. I have since bought a replacement siphon, which I am using on my current in-process batch of beer.

Could it be my method of bottle filling? When using the filler, it seemed like there was a lot of back pressure and it was causing foaming of the beer as it filled the bottles. The first three batches I bottled straight from the spigot on the bottling bucket.

Thanks for the help and input. I really want to get this right so I can start enjoying my beer again!

First of all, stop using a secondary.

If you use a secondary, typically it is a smaller vessel than the primary because you don't need the head space for the foam and trub.
IMHO if you had not purged the secondary with CO2 it could have been a contributor of oxygen.
There is also a siphon called a "Sterile Shiphon" that help cut down on contamination.

Sterile Siphon

http://morebeer.com/public/video/siphonstartweb.mov

 

[dcp27]

sounds like you're adding oxygen at every step (too much headspace, bubbles in the syphon, foaming when bottling). the foaming at bottling is probably the worst cuz you're basically injecting your beer with oxygen.

 

[Erroneous]

You could try bottling with the bucket closer to the height you bottle at or not fully opening the valve. Make sure you put the tube as far up the siphon as possible. I'm assuming that your primary is a plastic bucket. Maybe use a blowoff tube on your glass carboy would help and no secondary.

 

[unionrdr]

Bottling straight from the spigot is a no no,unless you use a piece if tubing & a bottling wand. I've noticed that my auto siphon does get little streams of bubbles when in use. Now I just tilt the fermenter gently to get the last bit out. With a tube on the spigot.

 

[nefarious_1_]

Interesting you didn't have any issues with the first 3 batches since they were the ones you bottled straight from the spigot. I was going to say that was your problem, then realized that this wasn't the case on the 2 problem batches...

I agree, screw the Secondary: too much room for problems.

Also, maybe take a couple practice runs with the auto siphon using just plain water or sanitizer to be sure you're not getting any air before you bottle another batch.

As far as foam during bottling: I always notice a few bubbles that form during bottling. There certainly isn't excessive foam, but some bubbles are noticed at the surface nonetheless. I think this is inevitable, to some degree. It seems that no matter how lightly I push the bottle filler down, it always creates a small amount of surface disturbance right before the beer rises above the tip of the filler. I guess this could be considered a result of the "back pressure" you're talking about. Unless, in your situation, it could be described as excessive foaming...

 

[TheBrewinator]

I doubt its the bubbles in the tubing, those are likely the little bit of CO2 in suspension coming out as the beer flows through the auto siphon. I see small bubbles as well when I rack and have never had an oxidized batch because of it.

 

[unionrdr]

Me neither. But I only used it on the cooper's micro brew FV to get the amount below the spigot level into the bottling bucket. I made mine with the spigot a bit closer to the bottom so I just tilt it slightly to get all but a couple TBSP's. No bubbles from the tube/wand hooked up to the spigot on the bottling bucket till near the end.

 

[kupula]

So, responding to several comments about the large secondary vessel, would the oxidized taste turn up when I sampled it during bottling? Neither batch had the bad aftertaste when I tried a little of the green beer before bottling.

Also, I feel like skipping the secondary will mean cloudier beer. Would I be ok if I just got a smaller 5 gal carboy?

 

[unionrdr]

Skipping secondary doesn't make for cloudy beer. Impatience does. Leave it in primary for 3-5 days after a stable FG is taken. The brew will have time to clean up it's by products,& settle out more.
Siphon onto priming solution in a bottling bucket so as to leave the trub behind. Bottle for the requisite 3-4 weeks @ room temp. Then 5-6 days in the fridge. They'll be crystal clear. Some examples of this can be seen in my gallery...

 

[dcp27]

oxidation isn't an immediate off-flavor and it will continue to worsen over time. the impact your secondary is making is pretty minimal compared to your bottling technique, unless you're foaming then too

theres nothing about a secondary that makes the beer any clearer than leaving it in the primary for that extended time.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

 

[Bobby_M]

Fix the air leak in your autosiphon and make all transfers more gentle to avoid oxygen exposure. If you're adamant about using a secondary, use a 5 gallon carboy and start purging both the secondary vessel and bottling bucket with CO2. If you skip the secondary and just let the primary go for 4 weeks, you can skip the CO2 as the gentle racking to bottling bucket will degas some CO2.

 

[kupula]

Ok, thanks for all the advice. I think I just need to tighten up my method and take my time a little more.

@dcp27 I looked at the post link, and it seems that the OP was saying that its ok to let the beer sit in the primary for 4 weeks without fear of off-flavors from the yeast cake, but a lot of the commenters seem to still secondary for extra clarity. It seems like you could go either way with it, depending on your preference and own brewing experience. I think I will experiment with a no secondary batch next and see what happens. I may also pick up a 5 gal carboy for future secondaries.

 

[HomebrewMTB]

Ok, thanks for all the advice. I think I just need to tighten up my method and take my time a little more.

@dcp27 I looked at the post link, and it seems that the OP was saying that its ok to let the beer sit in the primary for 4 weeks without fear of off-flavors from the yeast cake, but a lot of the commenters seem to still secondary for extra clarity. It seems like you could go either way with it, depending on your preference and own brewing experience. I think I will experiment with a no secondary batch next and see what happens. I may also pick up a 5 gal carboy for future secondaries.

No need for secondary if all you're looking for is clear beer. Conditioning without yeast cake isn't going to change the clarity of your beer. In fact if you let it sit longer primary, the cake will become more compact making it less likely that you will transfer trub when racking to your bottling bucket and gives the yeast time to clear it up. Also, a good cold break after the boil and cold crashing will also work wonders for clarity. There are other things you can do such as finings as well if needed.