Belgian Dark Strong Ale Westvleteren 12 Clone - Multiple Award Winner

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Brewed this on Saturday missed my starting gravity ended up with 1.088 or 1.089? Not too bad didnt boil of 1/4 gallon for whatever reason.

Pitched yeast at 5:00pm at 64 degrees it actually had krousen 5 hours after pitch. Today its at 68 will raise to 80 by the end of the week.

Worried that its fermenting to fast and wont have much character

Everything sounds good.

Controlling the temp rise on a healthy pitch will keep the approach to FG on target and keep fusels to a minimum. Most of the esters produced in the Westy 12 are done so after high krausen. A slow rise to 80F, (ramping if possible), will help to round out the profile. Higher temps speed up the nutrient uptake and metabolism in yeast but it also speeds the life-death cycle of the yeast. This increases the risk of fusels, a palate-dominant juicy-fruit profile, and to a smaller extent autolysis. We try to avoid the juicy-fruit-dominant profile by controlling the temp. A great W12 clone will have a slight spice, a tiny hint of yeast funk, toasted bread, fresh 'and' dried stone fruits, (plum-prune), with a mild finish of toffee-anise from the candi syrup at the end. After aging the Westy 12 clone should be balanced and drinkable.

The monks at St. Sixtus control the temp rise on the Westvleteren 12 using cold water and a hose on the fermenter!

 

[jtp137]

Thanks got dual stage chamber able to rise it up each day from 65 to 80 i will check it on day 6 if it is close to 1.013 I will start to cool it back down to 68

 

[BGBC]

I searched through the other thread and saw some folks doing PM versions of the recipe. Does anyone have advice or things to watch out for with a PM version? Here's what I came up with for the grist:
5 lb Pilsner
2 lb Pale Malt
3 lb Candi sugar (D-180)
2 lb Pilsen DME
3 lb Extra Light DME

 

[gotbags-10]

I'm sure I just missed it somewhere but what is the OG supposed to be? For a 5g batch I'm showing 1.101 in beer smith with the 15lbs of grain and 3lbs of syrup. Or 5.5g batch with a 1.091 OG

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

I'm sure I just missed it somewhere but what is the OG supposed to be? For a 5g batch I'm showing 1.101 in beer smith with the 15lbs of grain and 3lbs of syrup.

OG should be 1.090 but we've had it turn out well from 1.088 - 1.092.

For ProMash or BeerSmith you can adjust the variable mash efficiency to meet your equipment's known mash efficiency. Adjust the grist to target at 1.090.

 

[jtp137]

I'm sure I just missed it somewhere but what is the OG supposed to be? For a 5g batch I'm showing 1.101 in beer smith with the 15lbs of grain and 3lbs of syrup.

The og should be 1.090 to 1.091. Try an online recipe builder to check it. What is your efficiency

 

[gotbags-10]

Efficiency is at 72%. May just go with the 5.5g batch

 

[jtp137]

OG should be 1.090 but we've had it turn out well from 1.088 - 1.092.

For ProMash or BeerSmith you can adjust the variable mash efficiency to meet your equipment's known mash efficiency. Adjust the grist to target at 1.090.

Do you just scale the grain to match the efficiency and keep the 3 pounds of syrup. Or do you need to adjust the syrup and the grain to match grist percentages at various efficiency

 

[ruger988]

Syrup stays the same, it's going in the boil (or fermenter at high krausen) not the mash.

 

[paraordnance]

I wonder how fermenter syrup additions will work for this recipe. Seeing how some struggle to get FG low enough, fermenter addition when most of maltoze uptake by the yeast is complete would make perfect sense. I done it on tripels with great results

 

[ruger988]

I wonder how fermenter syrup additions will work for this recipe. Seeing how some struggle to get FG low enough, fermenter addition when most of maltoze uptake by the yeast is complete would make perfect sense. I done it on tripels with great results

I brewed a similar recipe but used a lot of CSIs info in the process. I added the D-180 about 48 hours in and finished out at 1.008 within a week and a half. I had a monster (~2.5L) starter and fermented at ~149* but I still think thats a pretty good sign. I'll continue to add any syrups at high krausen on future high gravity brews.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

I wonder how fermenter syrup additions will work for this recipe. Seeing how some struggle to get FG low enough, fermenter addition when most of maltoze uptake by the yeast is complete would make perfect sense. I done it on tripels with great results

There's a doc on performing late additions here:

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/csi_doc_-_volumetrics_rev_1.2.pdf

 

[jtp137]

Brewed this on Saturday missed my starting gravity ended up with 1.088 or 1.089? Not too bad didnt boil of 1/4 gallon for whatever reason.

Pitched yeast at 5:00pm at 64 degrees it actually had krousen 5 hours after pitch. Today its at 68 will raise to 80 by the end of the week.

Worried that its fermenting to fast and wont have much character

Just checked it around 1.030 and temp is close 77 degrees, still got a ways to go. Lost a little due to blow off but not much used fermcap

 

[botigol]

There's a doc on performing late additions here:

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/csi_doc_-_volumetrics_rev_1.2.pdf

CSI, what is the purpose of boiling the syrup? Not that I have a base for reference, but I would have thought that the syrup would be sanitary straight out of the package.

 

[pwortiz]

Just checked it around 1.030 and temp is close 77 degrees, still got a ways to go. Lost a little due to blow off but not much used fermcap

Curious about the comment regarding "fermenting too fast"...is that even possible?

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

CSI, what is the purpose of boiling the syrup?

Here is a link to the document describing miscibility and boiling late addition adjuncts and priming syrups in more detail:

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/use_and_storage_of_candi_syrups_rev_1.41.pdf

Below is a doc excerpt:

"CSI’s Candi Syrup is filled and packaged under sterile conditions. If adding candi syrups to primary or secondary the following steps are recommended:

1. Sanitize the exterior of the packaging.
2. Mix a volume ratio of 2 parts candi syrup to 1 part water.
3. Boil on low heat for 15 minutes
4. Let cool to room temperature covered
5. Add to fermenter and gently stir

By adding water and boiling you are sterilizing the added water, (not the syrup), and creating a more miscible solution. Adding syrup to a relatively cool primary or secondary fermentation without dilution will not permit even mixing due to the viscosity change under cooler temperatures. This may cause caking at the bottom of the fermenter."

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Curious about the comment regarding "fermenting too fast"...is that even possible?

If the metabolic heat being produced rises above the upper limit for the strain then it could create fusels together with a juicy-fruit profile, (both considered negatives for this style). Too fast a fermentation could be an indication of an over-pitch.

 

[botigol]

By adding water and boiling you are sterilizing the added water, (not the syrup), and creating a more miscible solution. Adding syrup to a relatively cool primary or secondary fermentation without dilution will not permit even mixing due to the viscosity change under cooler temperatures. This may cause caking at the bottom of the fermenter."

Thanks for the explanation!

 

[jtp137]

Just checked it around 1.030 and temp is close 77 degrees, still got a ways to go. Lost a little due to blow off but not much used fermcap

Been fermenting for 7 days at 80 degrees and its still bubbling once every two seconds. Still at 1.020 this may take couple weeks

Next batch I may start at 65 and ramp to 80 in 4 days instead of 6 days. Or maybe up the pitch rate

Taste allot of green apples and not to much beligian character not like wlp500 or 550. I know its still way early, not even done fermenting but not too many esters

 

[user 197168]

I'm really keen to get this recipe underway. The problem I have is a Sydney summer. Day temps are around 30C (86F) and night temps around 21C (70F). This is great for the beach, but not so great for brewing.

To get around this I have a chest freezer with a thermostat. My question is, with the "free rise", will I need to heat or cool (or both)? I'd imagine letting it sit in 25C (77F) would make it push past 27C (80F). Yet if I was to cool it, the ambient night temp would be too low.

Any thoughts?

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Been fermenting for 7 days at 80 degrees and its still bubbling once every two seconds. Still at 1.020 this may take couple weeks

Next batch I may start at 65 and ramp to 80 in 4 days instead of 6 days. Or maybe up the pitch rate

Taste allot of green apples and not to much beligian character not like wlp500 or 550. I know its still way early, not even done fermenting but not too many esters

Acetyldehyde is usually a precursor, (tart apple aroma). It should re-absorb in the later stages of ethanol production. Increasing the pitch by 8-10% should help.

 

[Likefully]

I bottled mine last week (after a month, its too warm here to leave it out any longer) - although the recipe I followed is so different to the original, there was still a hectic plum flavour. Its not unpleasant, but a bit too strong at the moment. I am expecting it to mellow as it ages - and i intend letting this one age for a while.

 

[jtp137]

Acetyldehyde is usually a precursor, (tart apple aroma). It should re-absorb in the later stages of ethanol production. Increasing the pitch by 8-10% should help.

1.016 adjusted for temperature 12 days fermenting going to give it a swirl and check again on Saturday or Sunday still at 80 degrees

 

[jtp137]

1.016 adjusted for temperature 12 days fermenting going to give it a swirl and check again on Saturday or Sunday still at 80 degrees

Do you think racking would kick start it to get the last couple of points, or should I just let it sit in primary at 80 degrees

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Do you think racking would kick start it to get the last couple of points, or should I just let it sit in primary at 80 degrees

At 1.016 you're close. In an extended secondary at 68-70F you should be able to drive the gravity down at least another 3 points.

 

[jtp137]

I want to make this again soon. This is one beer I want to master. Since this took two weeks to ferment should I pitch more yeast next time or perhaps mash at 148 instead of 149.

What about raising fermentation temp to 80 in 4 days instead of 6

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

I want to make this again soon. This is one beer I want to master. Since this took two weeks to ferment should I pitch more yeast next time or perhaps mash at 148 instead of 149.

What about raising fermentation temp to 80 in 4 days instead of 6

The mash temps are fine at either 148 or 149F. Up the pitch by 10% each time until you get to FG in 7 days, (without going over 80F at any time).

 

[gotbags-10]

Getting ready for my first go at this finally!! Have all my ingredients and an open ferm fridge. My only dilemma now is either to bottle or keg? Obviously it needs some aging and I dont mind tying up the keg for a year. But bottling would allow me to age a few for several years.

 

[pwortiz]

Getting ready for my first go at this finally!! Have all my ingredients and an open ferm fridge. My only dilemma now is either to bottle or keg? Obviously it needs some aging and I dont mind tying up the keg for a year. But bottling would allow me to age a few for several years.

I did bottle this one and have had relatively positive feedback for the few bottles I have opened. Now I am shelving and forgetting because she's still young.

I have to ask though, why can't you age in the keg? I have stuff that has been in kegs for a year while drinking it and I have enjoyed the changes through time - IPAs, stouts, etc.

I think you'd be happy witnessing the changes if you're in to that.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

I wish I could comment on kegging the the Westy 12 but we have never done it. As long as the cellar temps are maintained I see no reason why it would not turn out well. Although I would opt for a stainless dispensing side rather than vinyl or ldpe hose.

 

[gotbags-10]

Well that answers my question then. Bottles it is. How long at cellar temps could this beer age? 1,5,10years ?

 

[pwortiz]

How are the seals on your bottles? I have kept things in an unregulated cellar for over 3 years and people have only had positive things to say (could be lies I 'spose). As long as your seal is good, age it.is my inexperienced statement.

 

[ruger988]

I wish I could comment on kegging the the Westy 12 but we have never done it. As long as the cellar temps are maintained I see no reason why it would not turn out well. Although I would opt for a stainless dispensing side rather than vinyl or ldpe hose.

Does such a thing exist in an affordable form?

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Does such a thing exist in an affordable form?

There is the stainless D-System and accompanying stainless coupler for Sankey and other kegs, (no hose).

http://www.micromatic.com/draft-keg-beer/keg-taps-couplers-pid-7485E-S.html

 

[jtp137]

When you crash the secondary to 60 degrees from 80 to get the last couple of gravity points do you do it over one day or do you lower a couple degrees a day?

 

[Colorado68]

I made this almost a year ago and is the best beer I've ever tasted, not to mention brewed. Unfortunately I only have half a case remaining and wish I'd waited at least a year before trying even the first bottle.
The taste just gets better with age.
I'm cellaring my last 12 bottles for next winter and will be starting another batch in June after I get my SS conical fermenter.
BTW..the krausen this puts off was so volatile the top of my bucket fermenter bulged several inches and had to place five gallon paint cans on top WITH a blow off, just to keep the lid on.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

When you crash the secondary to 60 degrees from 80 to get the last couple of gravity points do you do it over one day or do you lower a couple degrees a day?

You can crash it without ramping down. No down-side.

 

[jtp137]

At 1.016 you're close. In an extended secondary at 68-70F you should be able to drive the gravity down at least another 3 points.

5 days at 68 and its at 1.014 can still taste a little bit of Acetaldehyde. But behind that it wonderful dark fruit. Cant taste the toasted bread I remember from the actual Westy I had in November. It was a year old, does this flavor come through in aging or is this the result of a decoction

Should I warm it back up and re pitch fresh yeast to drive it down some more points, or crash it to 50 for the bulk aging

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

5 days at 68 and its at 1.014 can still taste a little bit of Acetaldehyde. But behind that it wonderful dark fruit. Cant taste the toasted bread I remember from the actual Westy I had in November. It was a year old, does this flavor come through in aging or is this the result of a decoction

Should I warm it back up and re pitch fresh yeast to drive it down some more points, or crash it to 50 for the bulk aging

Secondary should take 6-8 weeks traditionally. No warming should be needed. For added breadiness on the next batch, using decoction and additional Pale will help. Secondary or bottle aging will not normally enhance breadiness. (FMI, is the ale starchy?)

 

[jtp137]

Secondary should take 6-8 weeks traditionally. No warming should be needed. For added breadiness on the next batch, using decoction and additional Pale will help. Secondary or bottle aging will not normally enhance breadiness. (FMI, is the ale starchy?)

6 to 8 weeks at 60 degrees or 6 to 8 weeks at 50